User avatar
CaptSunset
Posts: 140
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:55 pm

M$ announces ARM emulator soon

Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:01 pm

I read this whole article and nary a mention of Raspberry Pi paving the way...

"Microsoft will add an emulation layer to this version of Windows 10 for ARM that will enable x86/Win32 apps to run. (Yes, this is the Windows 10 "Cobalt" emulation technology I wrote about recently.)
Microsoft officials delivered the big news to the company's PC-maker partners at WinHEC in Shenzhen, China, on December 8. At that conference for Microsoft's OEM partners, Microsoft demonstrated a version of Windows 10 running on Qualcomm's Snapdragon 820 processor.
---
Microsoft is walking the Intel-ARM tightrope, by trying to make it clear that Windows 10 on ARM is meant for a specific class of devices, namely mobile PCs of the greater than 6-inch screen variety. "

more at:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft- ... -based-pcs

fruitoftheloom
Posts: 20469
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:40 pm
Location: Delightful Dorset

Re: M$ announces ARM emulator soon

Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:17 pm

CaptSunset wrote:I read this whole article and nary a mention of Raspberry Pi paving the way...

"Microsoft will add an emulation layer to this version of Windows 10 for ARM that will enable x86/Win32 apps to run. (Yes, this is the Windows 10 "Cobalt" emulation technology I wrote about recently.)
Microsoft officials delivered the big news to the company's PC-maker partners at WinHEC in Shenzhen, China, on December 8. At that conference for Microsoft's OEM partners, Microsoft demonstrated a version of Windows 10 running on Qualcomm's Snapdragon 820 processor.
---
Microsoft is walking the Intel-ARM tightrope, by trying to make it clear that Windows 10 on ARM is meant for a specific class of devices, namely mobile PCs of the greater than 6-inch screen variety. "

more at:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft- ... -based-pcs
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=167777
Retired disgracefully.....

Heater
Posts: 13093
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: M$ announces ARM emulator soon

Fri Dec 09, 2016 8:08 pm

It's kind of interesting what MS is up to here.

I'm using Windows 10 on a Surface Pro everyday for some months now. Being an old Linux die hard I was expecting this experience to be miserable. But it turns out that a lot of the opensource programs I use most on Linux run fine on Windows as well. All software we develop in house is cross-platform anyway. Sometimes I forget this is not Linux.

On top of that MS is going out of it's way to support some open source development. Their Visual Studio Code IDE is an example. Their Chakra core JS engine is another.

So I can imagine that a machine like my Surface Pro could as well be ARM based and I would hardly notice the difference. Except maybe the battery lasts longer. That is even before we think about x86 emulation. There are hardly any Windows/x86 specific applications I use. (LTSpice is a nice exception).

With this strategy MS can forget about legacy x86 only code for such devices.

Pithagoros
Posts: 580
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:16 pm

Re: M$ announces ARM emulator soon

Fri Dec 09, 2016 8:20 pm

The processor in the Pi is a fine thing for the job it is doing but the Snapdragon 820 is in a different league. 14nm for starters.

alphanumeric
Posts: 2001
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:17 pm
Location: Sydney, Nova Scotia, Canada

Re: M$ announces ARM emulator soon

Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:24 pm

Announcing the Raspberry Pi 4B with a Snapdragon CPU. One can dream, lol.

broe23
Posts: 903
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:35 pm
Location: Central IL
Contact: Website

Re: M$ announces ARM emulator soon

Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:40 pm

Sounds more like they are trying to reinvent the Surface RT again. It will most likely not be a public available copy of the 2017 release of Redstone 3. Microsoft is dying in the hardware sector that is branded with their name. They continue to see losses and also that there has been a very high rate of failure of the Surface 3 and 4. Especially the power adapter.
Ren: Now listen, Cadet. I've got a job for you. See this button? Ren: Don't touch it! It's the History Eraser button, you fool! Stimpy: So what'll happen? Ren: That's just it. We don't know. Maybe something bad, maybe something good.

Heater
Posts: 13093
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: M$ announces ARM emulator soon

Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:41 pm

Nah, the next big Pi upgrade will be to the RISC V architecture. Never mind all that ARM licencing red tape and expense :)

Yeah, I know, I'm dreaming again.

alphanumeric
Posts: 2001
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:17 pm
Location: Sydney, Nova Scotia, Canada

Re: M$ announces ARM emulator soon

Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:49 pm

broe23 wrote:Sounds more like they are trying to reinvent the Surface RT again. It will most likely not be a public available copy of the 2017 release of Redstone 3. Microsoft is dying in the hardware sector that is branded with their name. They continue to see losses and also that there has been a very high rate of failure of the Surface 3 and 4. Especially the power adapter.
Big difference this time around though. RT couldn't run 32-bit Win32/x86 desktop applications.

This is full Windows 10 for PCs, not some stripped down version. It’s Windows 10 Home and Pro, on ARM. And Windows 10 Enterprise, with all the functionality that businesses expect, including domain join. This is Windows RT done right.
Even better, Windows 10 on ARM will supply a long-rumored feature: The ability to run 32-bit Win32/x86 desktop applications—Apple iTunes, Adobe Photoshop, Google Chrome, whatever—directly on the system, unchanged.

Heater
Posts: 13093
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: M$ announces ARM emulator soon

Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:54 pm

broe23,

I find it odd you should say that. It's possible that the Surface Pro 4 I am typing this on is the best computer I ever had. It has all the power of my honking great desktop PC. It has a proper operating system, unlike an Apple or Android tablet. It runs all the software I need from the Linux world very well. Heck it runs Debian in Virtual Box very well if I feel the need for the real thing. The graphics are great. It weighs almost nothing and it goes with me everywhere.

Admittedly I have reservations over it's longevity. What with not being able to open the thing and even change the battery never mind fix or upgrade anything over time. But heck, when it comes to it I'm going to get in there one way or another :)

And admittedly it was not exactly cheap. Luckily it was the bosses idea so he pays?

And, well yeah, the closed nature of the whole thing makes me kind of sick. Most people care little about that though.

What competes with that?

Heater
Posts: 13093
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: M$ announces ARM emulator soon

Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:05 pm

alphanumeric,

Yes, but, my thesis (See above) is that MS is positioning itself not have to be dependent on those legacy x86 only Windows apps.

Sure they will continue on PC class machines.

But the OS is irrelevant today. The future is the cloud. Think Azure and such.

Like I said above, if this Surface Pro I am using was ARM based I would hardly notice the difference.

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 10762
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: M$ announces ARM emulator soon

Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:10 pm

alphanumeric wrote:Announcing the Raspberry Pi 4B with a Snapdragon CPU. One can dream, lol.
Unlikely in the extreme, unless Qualcomm lures Eben away from Boardcom.

alphanumeric
Posts: 2001
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:17 pm
Location: Sydney, Nova Scotia, Canada

Re: M$ announces ARM emulator soon

Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:12 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
alphanumeric wrote:Announcing the Raspberry Pi 4B with a Snapdragon CPU. One can dream, lol.
Unlikely in the extreme, unless Qualcomm lures Eben away from Boardcom.
True enough, I was just having a bit of fun. :)

I've been wishing for a real version of Windows 10 for the Pi for a while now. IoT just doesn't do anything for me. I'd settle for 10 Mobile on a Pi. Anything is better than 10 IOT, IMHO.

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 10762
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: M$ announces ARM emulator soon

Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:15 pm

Heater wrote:But heck, when it comes to it I'm going to get in there one way or another :)
Don't bet on it: https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microso ... down/51568
Microsoft Surface Pro 4 Repairability Score: 2 out of 10 (10 is easiest to repair).

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 10762
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: M$ announces ARM emulator soon

Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:18 pm

alphanumeric wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote:
alphanumeric wrote:Announcing the Raspberry Pi 4B with a Snapdragon CPU. One can dream, lol.
Unlikely in the extreme, unless Qualcomm lures Eben away from Boardcom.
True enough, I was just having a bit of fun. :)

I've been wishing for a real version of Windows 10 for the Pi for a while now. IoT just doesn't do anything for me. I'd settle for 10 Mobile on a Pi. Anything is better than 10 IOT, IMHO.
If the MMORPG I play (and some I used to) were reasonably straightforward to run under Linux, I'd ditch MS completely in a heartbeat.

Heater
Posts: 13093
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: M$ announces ARM emulator soon

Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:19 pm

The thing is, having closed source Windows and everything that rides on it is exactly what led to the situation of computer science ignorance that Eben created the Pi to correct.

As such, I am not at all happy with idea.

Anyway, what actually is it you could do with Win 10 on a Pi that you cannot do with Raspbian?

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 10762
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: M$ announces ARM emulator soon

Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:42 pm

Heater wrote: Anyway, what actually is it you could do with Win 10 on a Pi that you cannot do with Raspbian?
Genuflect five times per day in the direction of Redmond?

alphanumeric
Posts: 2001
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:17 pm
Location: Sydney, Nova Scotia, Canada

Re: M$ announces ARM emulator soon

Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:33 am

Heater wrote:The thing is, having closed source Windows and everything that rides on it is exactly what led to the situation of computer science ignorance that Eben created the Pi to correct.

As such, I am not at all happy with idea.

Anyway, what actually is it you could do with Win 10 on a Pi that you cannot do with Raspbian?
There likely isn't anything you could do in 10 Mobile that you can't do in Raspbian. I'd still like to have 10 Mobile as an option for an OS though. Greedy I guess, lol. Having a touch friendly OS with my Pi foundation screen would be nice. And there are some Apps I'd like to run on my Pi.

hippy
Posts: 5777
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:34 pm
Location: UK

Re: M$ announces ARM emulator soon

Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:39 pm

Heater wrote:Anyway, what actually is it you could do with Win 10 on a Pi that you cannot do with Raspbian?
I doubt there's anything that could be done with Windows 10 that couldn't be done with Raspbian but that's not really the point.

When you can sit a user familiar with Windows 10 in front of a screen and it behaves exactly the same whether running on ARM, X86 or anything else, runs the same program no matter what architecture it has, I believe there is an advantage in that, not just for Microsoft but for users and particularly hardware manufacturers.

I know, some people want everyone to get off Windows, believe it would be best if everyone did, but that's not the real world most users live in.

If having full Windows 10 on ARM help ARM continues to grow and flourish that is a good thing, even if some might not think it's the best thing.

madtom1999
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:37 pm

Re: M$ announces ARM emulator soon

Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:49 pm

What should be worrying for MS users is why MS cant get their programs to run on ARM with a simple recompile. There's something in deep in a binary that has to be run on Intel as they no longer know what it does otherwise they'd have re-written it in ARM rather than emulate an Intel machine on the ARM.

Heater
Posts: 13093
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: M$ announces ARM emulator soon

Sat Dec 10, 2016 1:17 pm

I don't think the problem is with MS not being able to build Windows and it's apps for ARM. In the past there was a Windows NT for the PowerPC, MIPS and Alpha architectures. In recent times there was Windows RT for ARM. There was Word for the 68xxx and PowerPC based Macs.

I believe the problem was all the suppliers of Windows applications not wanting to support builds of their products for non-x86 architectures. They had little incentive to do so given the small size of the market available on those machines.

With no apps available nobody wanted to move off x86. So MS stopped support for other architectures.

My feeling is that times have changed. Nobody will be wanting to run huge old x86 Windows apps on tablets and Surface like devices. Or phones. Such devices are used with cloud services. So the lack of traditional apps is not a big deal anymore. The OS and applications are not the battle ground anymore. The cloud and "apps" is.

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 10762
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: M$ announces ARM emulator soon

Sat Dec 10, 2016 4:54 pm

hippy wrote: I know, some people want everyone to get off Windows, believe it would be best if everyone did, but that's not the real world most users live in.
I don't want everyone to move off of Windows. I want eveyone to have a choice--and to know that choice exists--to move off (or onto) Windows as they wish.

I will note that I think the whole user interface issue is a red herring at this point. Never mind that I can easily move back and forth between Windows and Linux, my 8-year-old grandson does it routinely. The computers at school are running Windows while his own computer at home is a Pi running Raspbian. I'm not sure he even notices the differences.

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 10762
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: M$ announces ARM emulator soon

Sat Dec 10, 2016 4:59 pm

madtom1999 wrote:What should be worrying for MS users is why MS cant get their programs to run on ARM with a simple recompile. There's something in deep in a binary that has to be run on Intel as they no longer know what it does otherwise they'd have re-written it in ARM rather than emulate an Intel machine on the ARM.
There are two issues here, though they both revolve around the same thing. MS uses proprietary APIs, and Windows code is written to use those APIs. So long as there is no OS that runs on ARM that has those APIs, running Windows programs on ARM is going to be a right pain, and just recompiling won't turn the trick. It's not the machine instructions generated by the compiler. It's the system calls that have to use the APIs available.

alphanumeric
Posts: 2001
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:17 pm
Location: Sydney, Nova Scotia, Canada

Re: M$ announces ARM emulator soon

Sat Dec 10, 2016 5:06 pm

I don't see the common interface at this point in time on Windows devices? My XBOX ONE is about as different from my PC GUI wise, as they can be while still both running Windows 10. I don't own a Windows phone but my guess is its closer to my XBOX than my PC, Interface wise. Or even different again from those two? And Windows 10 IoT is different again. I don't know how they can even call it Windows 10. There is no GUI to speak of really. Even so, I'd still like to see something along the lines of 10 Mobile that will run on a Pi. Or like what's on my XBOX?

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 10762
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: M$ announces ARM emulator soon

Sat Dec 10, 2016 5:43 pm

alphanumeric wrote:I don't see the common interface at this point in time on Windows devices? My XBOX ONE is about as different from my PC GUI wise, as they can be while still both running Windows 10. I don't own a Windows phone but my guess is its closer to my XBOX than my PC, Interface wise. Or even different again from those two? And Windows 10 IoT is different again. I don't know how they can even call it Windows 10. There is no GUI to speak of really. Even so, I'd still like to see something along the lines of 10 Mobile that will run on a Pi. Or like what's on my XBOX?
It's marketing. MS has the brand--"Windows 10"--so every time that is mentioned for a given device, no matter how different it may be from the x86 desktop system, either internally or externally, many people *think* it's really the same thing. Look at how many threads we've gotten here from people who have heard that "Windows 10" runs on the Pi and they want to do that, and then we have to explain that "Win 10 IoT" (which does run on a Pi3) is decidedly NOT the Win 10 they're looking for.

User avatar
karrika
Posts: 1063
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 6:21 am
Location: Finland

Re: M$ announces ARM emulator soon

Sat Dec 10, 2016 5:52 pm

The funny thing is that M$ had a Windows NT running on Digital Alpha architecture long ago. It had 5 times the perfomance of Intel and we used them for MRI. All the code ran nicely and it was not x86 compatible. But most vendors carried also Alpha versions of their software at that time.

Return to “General discussion”