Chris Tyler
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Re: Raspberry Pi compared to...

Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:47 pm

I thought it would be fun to compare the Raspi to various historical machines. What got me thinking about this is a conversation about the Cray-1 on the [url=irc://irc.freenode.net/raspberrypi]IRC channel[/url]...

To get us started:

Code: Select all

Category                          Raspi           Cray-1
================================  ==============  =========

Year                              2011            1976

Clock                             700 MHz         80 MHz

Word size                         32 bits         64 bits

Power consumption                 <5 watts        115,000 watts

Megaflops                         ~400 Mflops     ~116 Mflops
(plus GPU!)

Initial memory                    128-256 MB      2-8 MB

Cost in 1976 dollars              $6-9            $7.9 million

Cost in 2011 dollars              $25-35          $31.2 million

Cooling                           passive         freon
refrigeration

Included accessories              stick-on feet   padded seats

Typical required accesssories     SD card         disk subsys
keyboard        Data General
screen           SuperNova
TV/monitor       S/200
cables

Full accessory cost in 1976 $     <$38            $1.008 million

Full accessory cost in 2011 $     <$150           $3.98 million
Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cray-1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_General_Nova
http://bornlivelovedie.com/2008/02/07/lessons-learned/
http://www.dollartimes.com/calculators/inflation.htm

Notes:
- The Cray-1 was a single-user computer; multiuser capability was introduced with the later MP models.
- Accessory cost assumes you\'re buying a cheap TV/LCD monitor.
- Inflation factor is 3.95

Chris Tyler
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Re: Raspberry Pi compared to...

Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:25 pm

Another one...

Code: Select all

Category                          Raspi           C64
================================  ==============  =========

Year                              2011            1982

Clock                             700 MHz         1 MHz

Word size                         32 bits         8 bits

Power consumption                 <5 watts        ~15 watts (?)

Megaflops                         ~400            ~0.00032
(plus GPU!)

Initial memory                    128-256 MB      64 KB
(0.06 MB)

Cost in 1982 dollars              $11-15          $595

Cost in 2011 dollars              $25-35          $1386

Cooling                           passive         passive

Included accessories              stick-on feet   user guide

Typical required accesssories     SD card         tape drive
keyboard        TV
screen
TV/monitor
cables

Full accessory cost in 1982 $     <$38            $150

Full accessory cost in 2011 $     <$150           $349

Display                           1920x1080       320x200
16M colours     2-16 colours
30p             60i
accelerated     non-accel.
Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_6
http://codebase64.org/doku.php?id=magazines:chacking10
http://www.dollartimes.com/calculators/inflation.htm

Notes:
- Accessory cost assumes you\'re buying a cheap TV/LCD (the 1982 price would probably get you a used colour set or a small new B&W)
- Inflation factor is 2.33

asb
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Re: Raspberry Pi compared to...

Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:36 pm

I\'m more interested in closer comparisons. e.g. the processor is the same as in the iPhone 3G but Raspi has it clocked faster (at 700Mhz). CPU performance would be somewhere between the 3G and 3GS, though multimedia performance should be quite a lot better than either. It\'s been said a number of times the GPU compares favourably to that in the Nintendo Wii (though I\'d probably expect the Wii\'s GPU to have faster memory). The Raspi should trounce the Dreamcast, and a comparison with the original Xbox would also be interesting. The Xbox\'s 733Mhz P3 is going to be a decent upgrade over the ARM1176, but the Raspi has more (256MB vs 64MB) RAM and of course support for HD graphics.

ProDigit
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Re: Raspberry Pi compared to...

Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:55 am

The raspberry Pi will perform well with Linux, better than Windows Vista on a Dual core processor!

tntexplosivesltd
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Re: Raspberry Pi compared to...

Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:04 am

Hmm, would be interesting to see the the tests you saw to some up with that. Has anyone done any comparing?
I guess any benchmarking would favour the Windows Vista system, but would be interesting to see.

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daveg
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Re: Raspberry Pi compared to...

Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:15 am

[quote]Quote from ProDigit on December 7, 2011, 09:55
The raspberry Pi will perform well with Linux, better than Windows Vista on a Dual core processor!
[/quote]

How can you compare the two? What is the basis of comparison? Is the a specific task which you are comparing the performance on? Image conversion, web browsing, document editing? What are the details of the Dual Core system?
Some facts on how you arrive at such a statement would be helpful.

ProDigit
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Re: Raspberry Pi compared to...

Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:01 am

window opening/switching, window/program booting, ram handleability, GUI lag, etc etc etc...

It's a raw guess on how it'll perform.

Vista and dual cores (core2duo, not Core i processors) are not a good combination.

I ran Android,and Ubuntu from single core 800Mhz processors and it performed better than Vista on a 2,4GHz dualcore processor.

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ArborealSeer
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Re: Raspberry Pi compared to...

Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:13 am

If the RPi doesn't run windows and you're comparing against vista you're completely bypassing "fair" testing and being utterly biased.

doing thing like window opening on vista vs X or whatever is a completely unfair comparison and when not done entirely by software is ripe for human bias and error.

Yes, Vista full stop is a "bad thing" (tm) even on fast PCs with virtualisation it runs badly 7 is much improved.

Any test should be run like for like. which is why tests like whetstones and dhrystones etc exist.
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ProDigit
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Re: Raspberry Pi compared to...

Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:28 am

No,I just did a mental 'user experience' test. It's a good enough approximation.
Drystone wetstone does not say anything to 99,999% of the world population.

Compare it to Windows Vista, and about 40-50% of the population can understand.

There are times when accurate results say nothing, especially on Vista which is regularly plagued with hiccups, and thus any precise reading will never be repeated, and always different.

Perhaps I should count the amount of electrons passing through the CPU (if you ever heard of quantum mechanics)?
It makes just about as much sense to do so!

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ArborealSeer
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Re: Raspberry Pi compared to...

Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:34 am

respectfully, thats utter nonsense.
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RaTTuS
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Re: Raspberry Pi compared to...

Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:00 am

How To ask Questions :- http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
WARNING - some parts of this post may be erroneous YMMV

1QC43qbL5FySu2Pi51vGqKqxy3UiJgukSX
Covfefe

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ArborealSeer
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Re: Raspberry Pi compared to...

Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:02 am

found a cached copy since the site appears down?

http://webcache.googleusercont.....#038;gl=uk

a coworker showed me earlier, so here's another link >  Building the worst Linux PC ever
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lb
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Re: Raspberry Pi compared to...

Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:11 am

@ProDigit

The Raspberry Pi will not perform anywhere near a contemporary x86 dualcore, not in synthetic benchmarks, nor in practice. It will be far slower and much more sluggish than a first-generation Intel Atom. Sorry, but you're suffering from some serious wishful thinking.

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RaTTuS
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Re: Raspberry Pi compared to...

Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:33 am

yeah the site is probably running on it  so.....
How To ask Questions :- http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
WARNING - some parts of this post may be erroneous YMMV

1QC43qbL5FySu2Pi51vGqKqxy3UiJgukSX
Covfefe

jamesh
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Re: Raspberry Pi compared to...

Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:42 am

Well, yes, I think people know that.

Although 700Mhz is still quite a few Mhz, and should be enough for a lot of tasks.
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HeadCase
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Re: Raspberry Pi compared to...

Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:22 pm

RPi versus the Nintendo 64 - now that is an interesting comparison!

http://www.nintendo64ever.com/.....tions.html

Even though it was designed almost 20(!) years ago, the N64 was a very nice architecture. RISC processor, graphics co-processor with shared memory, micro-coded sub-processors, shaders, anti-aliasing. 64 bit MIPS CPU running at 93MHz with a grand total of 4MB of RAM. Program memory (cartridge) of <64M.  A mere shadow of a RPi but fantastic for its day.

Despite the tiny memory (4MB) and 93MHz CPU, the N64 software was revolutionary. Games like Goldeneye and Zelda were the first real looks at what a 3D world could be on a computer. Given the constraints, the N64  programmers seemed to be able to squeeze miracles out of that little machine.

I think that this gives some perspective on what a great platform the RPi is. Imagine what the Zelda programmers could have done with a RPi. Hopefully we might see some inspired coding when the RPi gets out in the wild and into the hands of some kids who don't have a clue that 256MB RAM is too small to bother with.

tech_monkey
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Re: Raspberry Pi compared to...

Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:45 pm

What about the BBC Micro B

Category Raspi BBC Micro ModelB

Year 2011 1981/82

Clock 700 MHz  2MHz (though the memory was clocked at 4Mhz I think)

Word size 32 bits   8bits

Power consumption <5 watts   ??? watts

Initial memory 128-256 MB 32 kB-64kB

Cost in 1981 335 to 399 pounds

Cost in 2011  Pi- 40 ish pounds  BBC  1000 ish pounds
http://www.casatech.eu

ProDigit
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Re: Raspberry Pi compared to...

Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:20 pm

lb said:


@ProDigit

The Raspberry Pi will not perform anywhere near a contemporary x86 dualcore, not in synthetic benchmarks, nor in practice. It will be far slower and much more sluggish than a first-generation Intel Atom. Sorry, but you're suffering from some serious wishful thinking.


What I said was not because of the capabilities of the chip, but because Linux is a much leaner OS than Vista. I've had several cellphones, small video players, ARM nettops and other clients, and they all indicate similar results.
If you run a simpler OS, it will work just as good!
Windows is plagued by being too bloated, and now their internet browsers are too (where a browser is taking up more memory than an entire earlier version of Windows)

I'm not saying you will encode video's faster or something, but concerning GUI response you can expect just about the same.

I'm pretty sound in what I say; though base my experience on multiple other ARM devices I have; and unfortunately one Vista OS too.

You'll see... It'll turn out quite good!

Pygar
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Re: Raspberry Pi compared to...

Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:52 am

I would love to see a comparison with the VIC-20 I got for $88 way back when... or maybe the DSKY computers on the Apollo flights. We seem to be getting so picky over a computer that would have been the wonder of the age, such a short time ago. I think I still have pencil stubs from back when VIC first gave me that inexplicable "it's not working but I still love it!" sensation. Remember those books of VIC-20 programs you could type in, none of which, no matter how carefully pruferedd, actually worked?!
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Zobeid Zuma
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Re: Raspberry Pi compared to...

Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:32 pm

I've just been pondering how it'll compare with a couple of systems that I did a lot of my learning on: Atari ST and Amiga.  My Amiga 2500 in particular (actually an A2000 with an A2620 board), with its 14 MHz 68020 processor, seemed like Hot Stuff at the time.  It was roughly four times as fast as the standard 68000-based Amiga system, plus it added a 68881 floating point co-processor.

In retrospect, it would have been hopeless for a lot of tasks that we take for granted now.  For example, compressing a MP3 track would have taken hours.  Rendering complex 3D scenes would be another example.  (I remember setting POV-Ray to low priority and letting it run in the background while I did other things.)  However....  The desktop (err, Workbench!) environment and common productivity apps like word processing, email and paint programs worked Just Fine.  End users didn't see the limitations too often, but programmers had to be clever at times about working around them.

Keep in mind also, Amiga OS 2.0 was much smaller and more efficient than Linux.  It was also very simple-minded: single-user, no memory protection, didn't even come with a TCP/IP stack.  There's a whole laundry list of things we now assume an OS should have that it didn't have.

In the case of Raspberry Pi, more power isn't necessarily more better.  In the context of an educational tool, I wouldn't want to teach students that all their problems can be solved by throwing more RAM and processor cycles at them.

timhoffman
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Re: Raspberry Pi compared to...

Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:38 am

How about a comparison with the Sun SPARCStation 2.  Did one a few months ago.

This sheet lists side by side some of the characteristics.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... pcVE#gid=0

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