99guspuppet
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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:41 pm

I am not anti-Broadcom. Best of success to Broadcom. Best success for RaspberryPi. I am pointing out issues that some seem inclined to ignore. If Broadcom\'s CEO is nice ( whatever that means ) ..... Do the following .... ( voluntarily )
#1 Release the pinout of the Broadcom chip to the public domain.
#2 Release the use data for the internal registers to the public domain.
#3 Release source code for using the chip to the public domain.
#4 Publicize your agreement ( all of it ) with RaspberryPI. ( RaspberryPi is a non-profit , whatever that means )

Freedom to pursue life , liberty and happiness <=== every person on the planet

99guspuppet

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meltwater
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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:18 pm

Hate to tell you, but they don\'t owe you any of that.
They will do what they want to, thankfully they seem happy to support the R-Pi which is more than enough for me.
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abishur
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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:52 pm

And a complete ignore to all the valid points made by people in the thread.

Also the 4 things you listed a bit of a false analogy (if he is nice then he would...). I mean the things you list aren\'t even required for government contract jobs let alone a private sector business. I mean lets face it what you\'re really arguing here is \"if he were nice I wouldn\'t have to pay anything for this\" (are you part of occupy wall street by any chance?)

Finally, what\'s number 4 supposed to mean? They\'re a registered charity, you can look it up and then head over to wikipedia and see exactly what that means for British charities.

I mean I get the idea that there are a lot of people out there who try to scam others and you\'re putting that idea forward, but seriously, do some due diligence here and get some answers. They\'re *painfully* available to everyone.
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99guspuppet
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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:24 pm

Some of the responders to my comments really don\'t get what I am saying. Plus they are putting words in my mouth that I never said... Plus attaching labels and actions to me that are erroneous. When I have time, I will explain my position as carefully and precisely as I can. In the meantime ..... examine your axioms. About government. About charities. About being nice. About ethics.

BTW my \" if he was nice \" was tongue in cheek.... yes , it is a false analogy.

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walney
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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:10 pm

[quote]Quote from 99guspuppet on December 2, 2011, 18:41
...( RaspberryPi is a non-profit , whatever that means)... [/quote]

It means that they are quite heavily regulated and have to operate according to prescribed guidelines:

http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/Sh ... ryNumber=0

...and because the main are actors are also trustees, even more so.

barnaby
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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:10 pm

This thread was quite funny until that last post, when my brain started telling me \"BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH, go and do something interesting\". So, off to watch Have I Got News For You :)

P.S. Advice about mixing tongue-in-cheek and \'serious\' on the web: Don\'t do it.

Neil
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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:17 pm

[quote]Quote from meltwater on December 2, 2011, 18:01
I did read somewhere the Roku uses a similar chip, although no idea about the truth of that.
[/quote]

http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/29/roku ... e-updates/

followed from the usual source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VideoCore

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walney
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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:23 pm

[quote]Quote from barnaby on December 2, 2011, 21:10
... So, off to watch Have I Got News For You :)[/quote]

Awwww... Can\'t you watch it later on iPlayer? (Besides which, you\'re missing Brazil!)

IcyK
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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:46 pm

[quote]Quote from 99guspuppet on December 2, 2011, 18:41
I am not anti-Broadcom. Best of success to Broadcom. Best success for RaspberryPi. I am pointing out issues that some seem inclined to ignore. If Broadcom\'s CEO is nice ( whatever that means ) ..... Do the following .... ( voluntarily )
#1 Release the pinout of the Broadcom chip to the public domain.
#2 Release the use data for the internal registers to the public domain.
#3 Release source code for using the chip to the public domain.
#4 Publicize your agreement ( all of it ) with RaspberryPI. ( RaspberryPi is a non-profit , whatever that means )

Freedom to pursue life , liberty and happiness <=== every person on the planet

99guspuppet[/quote]
I guess someone forgot to take his medication a while ago ...

jamesh
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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:50 pm

[quote]Quote from 99guspuppet on December 2, 2011, 20:24
Some of the responders to my comments really don\'t get what I am saying. Plus they are putting words in my mouth that I never said... Plus attaching labels and actions to me that are erroneous. When I have time, I will explain my position as carefully and precisely as I can. In the meantime ..... examine your axioms. About government. About charities. About being nice. About ethics.

BTW my \" if he was nice \" was tongue in cheek.... yes , it is a false analogy.[/quote]

Well, until you have time to explain yourself fully (which you have so far failed to do - the quote above makes little sense to me) I suggest you don\'t post anything related to this topic. You are more than welcome to ask technical questions which we will endeavour to answer if the answers are not already elsewhere on the forum.
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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:55 pm

[quote]Quote from 99guspuppet on December 2, 2011, 18:41
I am not anti-Broadcom. Best of success to Broadcom. Best success for RaspberryPi. I am pointing out issues that some seem inclined to ignore. If Broadcom\'s CEO is nice ( whatever that means ) ..... Do the following .... ( voluntarily )
#1 Release the pinout of the Broadcom chip to the public domain.
#2 Release the use data for the internal registers to the public domain.
#3 Release source code for using the chip to the public domain.
#4 Publicize your agreement ( all of it ) with RaspberryPI. ( RaspberryPi is a non-profit , whatever that means )

Freedom to pursue life , liberty and happiness <=== every person on the planet

99guspuppet[/quote]

OK, in the same vein....

#1 Ferrari - can you release the blueprints of your latest 458 engine please?
#2 Oh, and while you are at it, the software used in the very sophisticated ECU as well.
#3 And could you publicise how much it costs you to make each car.

I\'m sure Mr Ferrari is a nice guy too. Doesn\'t mean he has to give away trade secrets to all and sundry, especially since they make no difference to 99.99% of the users of his product, and only give competitors the chance to catch up.

Some people really do live in cloud cuckoo land.
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bradburts
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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:18 pm

The goals of the foundation are laudable and judging from forum enthusiasm many others will be volenteering support. Regardless of if we act commercially or not for profit there is a risk to our investment when we are single sourced and that is not helped if information is not in the PD.
I don\'t know if information is generally available, I have not found datasheets and wonder if this is a constraint to some developer.
Of course Broadcom is a commerical organisation and legally they owe us nothing.
I have no doubt however that Mr Broadcom will gain a great deal from communities such as this though and hopefully Mr Broadcom is savy enough to recognise and respect that.
Free flow of information is the best way to move technology forward, benefits commerical and non commerical development alike.
I think that its right to debate how our eggs are in the Broadcom basket and what risks may exist, even if they turn out to be monsters under the bed. The flavour of this thing include accessibility of information especially as so many will give their time for free.
I could see how it may be hard for Broadcom to document if all the cells belong to someone else, you would essentially be giving a blueprint away.
Perhaps the poster\'s wording is off, but I would go with open questioning, debate & transparency. Helps clear thinking at the least.

obarthelemy
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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:21 pm

The Raspi is the keystone of Broadcom\'s plan for world domination. The GPU blob is actually a virus that will lockdown all Raspi code and PCs on 6/6/66 (this is long-term plan). Since by then Raspi will have PCs, Servers (Model Z will have *4* USB ports to help with handling SANs!), Tablets and Smartphones, and 66% of the world\'s kids will be hooked, spending all their spare time hacking Python on the Pi, Broadcom will then own the world.
A clear indication of all that sneaky evilness is the cat. That tell-tale accessory of all vilains as been prominently featured since day 1.

Scribe
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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:21 pm

The only reason I can see to hold back access to datasheets is to help protect chip security and thus the security of customers using the chip in their devices. Beyond this there\'s no logical reason, datasheets are not giving away core design details, there\'s no risk. As to whether security is a company\'s motivation or not I can not say.

One issue I\'ve experienced is with companies that have their distributors handle communications, they won\'t even talk to you if you don\'t specify high order quantities because they\'re not interested. Typically you can buy from another company that has purchased in bulk from an initial distributor but they\'re unable to provide datasheet access and this does unfairly lock out small projects or projects with uncertain order quantities.

I have said before that Broadcom really should look at selling to a distributor that deals direct with individual customers such as the likes of Digikey or Mouser. These companies are generally willing to put forward better bulk order offers on behalf of their clientele, if the issue for Broadcom is that these quantities are still not enough to lower the overheads then they can simply offer the product at a higher price and distributors and their customers will either take it or they wont. In this respect, whether intentional or not, Broadcom are forcefully locking out smaller businesses and projects and as such it does limit outside interest for the RaspberryPi as a potential evaluation or depending on certifications that can be gained, production design.

I understand completely that this is not the interest of RaspberryPi the foundation but I\'m sure it\'s frustrating to others that a $25 computer has been created, perfect for many projects, but can\'t be touched commercially (even if for a little more money) for reasons of component availability, it\'s quite a shame.

Beyond this, what exactly 99guspuppet is on about I haven\'t the foggiest and his wording could certainly have been more constructive.

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abishur
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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:36 pm

Wait, why can\'t the r-pi be \"touched commercially\"? The r-pi team has repeatedly said you can re-use the r-pi in a commercial project. The literal only thing we can\'t touch amounts to a piece of firmware. When was the last time any of us dug into the bios of our motherboard and changed it beyond the options available in the bios interface? That\'s really the level we\'re talking about here. All the functionality of the GPU is available via APIs. It\'s amount to complaining because you don\'t know the exact metallurgy behind making your bike. It doesn\'t prevent you from changing each and every last piece of the bike, you just can\'t melt the thing down and build your own from scratch. Stop complaining and go ride your dang bike! :P :P :P
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bradburts
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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:49 pm

I last hacked the firmware of a BIOS about 18 months ago.
If you\'re gonna get rid of the LiIon battery then you need to flash the settings etc.
They don\'t back NV with EE these days mores the pity.
Its partronising to say we don\'t need this or that. None of us have ultimate experience, including manufacturers.
I also doubt that all the GPU is available via API. The non paranoid response is that behaviour can always be optimised. The paranoid response involves customer tiers.
Who said that?
PS
\"Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity\"
PPS
The hack did not work perfectly, sometimes setting were lost, guess what would have helped.....

bradburts
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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:17 pm

[quote]Quote from abishur on December 2, 2011, 19:52
I mean the things you list aren\'t even required for government contract jobs let alone a private sector business.[/quote]
My understanding is that #1 to #3 would be required by the DFARS and that #4 would be available by virtue of FoI.
Don\'t get me wrong, I am sure that there are reasons why datasheet information is not readily available, its just my view that they are not very good/helpful reasons - if you have a team of x developers ready to work for free, why wouldn\'t you?
PS
And I am sorry but I cannot resist this:
\"The love of money is the root of all evil \" therefore RPI must be good and Broadcom evil?

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Robert_M
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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:32 am

The first rule of Broadcom Ninja Unit is you do not talk about Broadcom Ninja Unit. The second rule of Broadcom Ninja Unit is...

EDIT: Oops! Replied to page 1 without reading page 2 :-p
I sometimes ride my Pi to the Forum.

Scribe
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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:54 am

[quote]Quote from abishur on December 2, 2011, 22:36
Wait, why can\'t the r-pi be \"touched commercially\"? The r-pi team has repeatedly said you can re-use the r-pi in a commercial project. The literal only thing we can\'t touch amounts to a piece of firmware. When was the last time any of us dug into the bios of our motherboard and changed it beyond the options available in the bios interface? That\'s really the level we\'re talking about here. All the functionality of the GPU is available via APIs. It\'s amount to complaining because you don\'t know the exact metallurgy behind making your bike. It doesn\'t prevent you from changing each and every last piece of the bike, you just can\'t melt the thing down and build your own from scratch. Stop complaining and go ride your dang bike! :P :P :P[/quote]

This has nothing to do with permission, heck, unless every customer signed a contract you couldn\'t stop them using a product commercially even if you wanted to. I\'m not talking about the firmware either.

The RaspberryPi can\'t be touched commercially for several reasons:
  • There have been no guarantees that the design wont change for X years.
  • There\'s no guarantee of standards compliance.
  • To meet various commercial standards or project requirements, typically one would develop and prototype on the Pi and then look to produce a custom PCB or variation of the product as required, this also gives control over the production availability, the issue here is the main CPU is not available in quantities viable for many projects and datasheets are not currently available for low-level analysis, chip properties, there\'s no intention to open up the PCB design as a reference etc etc.
It varies from industry to industry but certification is never cheap and sometimes super expensive. If there\'s no way, either through supplier guarantee or through self-manufacture to ensure a product remains unchanged and has a known production lifespan, you can find yourself having to retest or in the worst case redesign or abandon a project.

As an example, I work in the electrical industry where the use of ARM processors is acceptable but tweaks to layout and PCB may be needed for EM reasons. If we test a product in a high-voltage set-up for certification it can cost $20,000 per day of testing. If anything changes since certification, the product needs re-certifying.

The same is typical for many scenarios relating to product development, certification etc though of course not costing anywhere near as much.

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abishur
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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:24 am

hmmm... I hear what you\'re saying, and I can see where you\'re coming from, but I\'d also argue that ultimately this is a concern you\'d have with any product. You may get a guarantee, or even a contract, that a company will keep a chip going for x years but they may decided that it\'s cheaper to break the contract. Alternatively they might also just plain go out of business.

Not sure if what I\'m thinking of when I read your second bullet point is what you mean when you say it.

I kinda feel as if the 3rd bullet point is a bit of a straw-man argument \"because I can\'t know every intimate detail of the board it\'s therefore not possible for it to be stable in a commercial product?\" And not being able to change the layout makes it unmarketable too? It\'s not like you could change the layout of a chip.

Which is really how I view the r-pi. The r-pi is a single unit. It has various I/O and different pins have different features. I can\'t change what pin has what feature, I just have to make it work or use a different product. That doesn\'t make it unmarketable, however, anymore than Intel CPUs are unmarketable because they come in (or used to come in at any rate) a 775 ZIF package.

Now of course your final point while being true is a bit of a false analogy isn\'t it? (man I\'m getting to use that word all over the place today!) I mean you\'re talking about an application that you know before that the r-pi wouldn\'t ever be able to get certified to begin with, a market that has extremely strict rules and regulations because it\'s an incredibly dangerous environment and then saying \"since it couldn\'t work here it couldn\'t work anywhere\" It\'s a bit like saying that because my car\'s side airbags couldn\'t get approval as a child\'s bike helmet it couldn\'t get approval as a an air bag either. There are a ton of fields where minor tweaks to board layout of a changing of equivalent parts would not require a complete retesting/reworking of a product.

Finally, where are you getting your info for your basic premise? I think I missed the post where they told us that they would discontinue boards rapidly and we could have no guarantee on how long they would produce a specific model. Can I get a reference please? Of course the opposite is true as well, I have no proof that they won\'t do exactly as you claim, but to state it as a cold hard fact before the board is even released, I dunno, that just seems rather needlessly negative. Like making a mountain out of a molehill before you even get to the same state where the molehill is even located.
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bradburts
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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:36 am

[quote]Quote from Scribe on December 3, 2011, 02:54
This has nothing to do with permission, heck, unless every customer signed a contract you couldn\'t stop them using a product commercially even if you wanted to. I\'m not talking about the firmware either.
[/quote]
I am sure that this does not apply to the RPI etc but for a while now there has been a worrying trend where manufacturers lock you out from \'their\' platform.
You can easily be locked out just by with holding software updates (if you cannot update you will get wormed) or by locking the device when the naughty inquisitive end use user connects to your network. I don\'t remember signing a contract with Sony yet if I modded my PS 3 to run linux (as Sony used to allow!) I am sure that it would be one way only.
Most \'evil\' (in the love of money sense) corporations would have a closed eco system (read high margin) if they could and that\'s another good reason why encouraging kids etc to be creators rather than consumers is so important.
The ninjas, so to speak, sneak in via your network and brick your box, that or they hide in ARP tables and deny you access.

yabba
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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:45 am

[quote]Quote from 99guspuppet on December 1, 2011, 18:55
I think I should have made the title read \"Broadcom reaction to disruptive entrepreneurship\"

I look forward to the flying fur.[/quote]

And you teach \"Critical thinking , ethics , use of language , logic and persuasion\" ?

You should add \"comedy\" to the list.

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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:55 am

Scribe: based on your requirements, it seems like TI\'s BeagleBoard/BeagleBone would be more appropriate. TI commit to parts availability (apparently the BeagleBoard key components will be available for 10 years) and you can buy the chips from distributors.

jamesh
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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:12 am

This circular argument is getting rather tiresome.

It been explained more than once, but I\'ll have another go...

Broadcom do not use distributors. They sell direct to other manufacturers. To do anything else would cost. A lot. People seem to completely underestimate the amount of work required to support putting a chip like this in a product, that support comes from Broadcom, and unless the volume pay for the support, there is no point in Broadcom selling to that customer. Broadcom have a lot of apps engineers - the people who do this work. I\'m one of them. It already costs them a lot of money. If we have to spend 1 week supporting a customer that costs about £5k (I gestimate). Now let\'s say we make £4 per chip sold (also a complete guestimate, and much too high for the smaller chips). We therefore need to sell a 1000 chips to break even on one man\'s time for one week. Now we have to add on all the extra costs in running a company - buildings and all the other departments not related to chips sales. Oh, and I forgot the 4 years of development costs of the chip, which involved 250 people, so we also need to make back that money.

Anyone seeing the point here? You need to sell a metric sh*tload of chips before you even break even. Even one weeks customer support isn\'t worth it for less than 10k chip sales. So far the Raspi has taken up more Broadcom time than that......that is why Broadcom only sell (usually; Raspi are an exception) to big companies with big sales numbers.

Now am sure that many people will say - release the datasheet, release the code, let the community do the support. Problem is that you still need the Broadcom time, because there is no-one in the community who knows how it all works. As apps engineers going over the schematics from major manufacturers using these sort of chips, we still find mistakes - this is mistakes from very professional people in major companies who already have all the information. That\'s why you need professionals experienced in the devices to be there. Raspberry Pi is lucky - it has those professionals giving their time for free to a charity. That won\'t be the case for A.N. Other.
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bradburts
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Re: Broadcom reaction to distructive entrepreneurship

Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:15 am

10 years is a very good shelf life, shame about the price.

Anyway in 10 years time we will be able to run RPI apps under an emulator within the chip (the ninjas) implanted in our.......

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