User avatar
PeterO
Posts: 4942
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:14 pm

Re: 10 Million Raspberry PIs

Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:10 am

BMS Doug wrote: If the person needs their project to work they will have to learn the fundamental basics in order to be able to learn the specifics they need for their project.
You've hit the nail on the head there Doug !

Today's beginners expect things to "just work" and quickly loose interest when they don't. Yesteryear's beginners expected to have to put in some effort to make things work, that's how we learned how stuff worked.
It's the "digital consumers" vs "digital makers" situation again.

I do think that these days we start beginners off a bit too far up "the technology stack". Starting off with low-level programming never did us any harm :lol:

PeterO
Discoverer of the PI2 XENON DEATH FLASH!
Interests: C,Python,PIC,Electronics,Ham Radio (G0DZB),1960s British Computers.
"The primary requirement (as we've always seen in your examples) is that the code is readable. " Dougie Lawson

Pithagoros
Posts: 580
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:16 pm

Re: 10 Million Raspberry PIs

Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:59 am

johnb_summers wrote: often that knowledge displayed has no real link to the level of the person asking the question, which is why they ask once and then are never seen again.
This is a well known effect, those that study pedagogy will refer to "the curse of knowledge".

http://www.edutopia.org/blog/the-curse- ... hris-reddy

Dealt with, like so many other things, by putting yourself in the position of the person that you are try to pass knowledge to.

Whether they come across as unhelpful in the way they ask the question, or disinterested in the answer, or a miserable old curmudgeon.

User avatar
Gavinmc42
Posts: 3630
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:31 am

Re: 10 Million Raspberry PIs

Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:37 am

It's taken me 4 yrs of Pi'ing to get to the stage of offering advice/answers.
Still think I know nothing about lots more :oops:
So much still to learn about how these chips work.

Some are noobs without a clue, some cannot google and some expect the world to hand them answers.
And some are really in the deep end and need saving.
So pretty much the whole of human history ;)

10 Million Pi's, how many before all the answers are known?
100 Million - 1Billion? Moore's law puts that around 2026.
1 Billion Pi's by 2026 :o

That's still in my life time and my kid will just be starting Uni.
I am his hero right now, because I fixed his tablet after the screen had gone green.
I cleaned his finger prints and snot off the glass with a wet tissue, lo and behold it is now working.
Ask me why it now works fine ? My best theory, after 50 years using these things, is quantum effects and positive thinking :ugeek:
Ask me why my mum could stop watches she wore, same answer.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Here be a magical one horned pony?

At least with the forum some help is here.
The help sometimes comes pre coloured with opinion :shock:
Is it better than the old days with data books, 300 baud modems and bulletin boards?

Student cannot find the answer on google? Then it is impossible, cannot be done :roll:

The early adopters are the Elite, I'm talking to anyone with a model B ;)
Not because we think we know more but because we saw the future.

You do not need to know how a car works to drive it, yet some like to lift the hood and hit things with hammers.
Now don't let the smoke out.
I'm dancing on Rainbows.
Raspberries are not Apples or Oranges

User avatar
johnb_summers
Posts: 285
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:48 pm
Location: Bushey UK

Re: 10 Million Raspberry PIs

Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:00 pm

Pithagoros wrote:
johnb_summers wrote: often that knowledge displayed has no real link to the level of the person asking the question, which is why they ask once and then are never seen again.
This is a well known effect, those that study pedagogy will refer to "the curse of knowledge".

http://www.edutopia.org/blog/the-curse- ... hris-reddy

Dealt with, like so many other things, by putting yourself in the position of the person that you are try to pass knowledge to.

Whether they come across as unhelpful in the way they ask the question, or disinterested in the answer, or a miserable old curmudgeon.
Excellent article, lays it all out perfectly.
MyPi Developer
http://mypiworld.com/
http://mypi.tech/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US2nyRgg-SY&nohtml5=False

User avatar
johnb_summers
Posts: 285
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:48 pm
Location: Bushey UK

Re: 10 Million Raspberry PIs

Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:04 pm

Gavinmc42 wrote:It's taken me 4 yrs of Pi'ing to get to the stage of offering advice/answers.
Still think I know nothing about lots more :oops:
So much still to learn about how these chips work.

Some are noobs without a clue, some cannot google and some expect the world to hand them answers.
And some are really in the deep end and need saving.
So pretty much the whole of human history ;)

10 Million Pi's, how many before all the answers are known?
100 Million - 1Billion? Moore's law puts that around 2026.
1 Billion Pi's by 2026 :o

That's still in my life time and my kid will just be starting Uni.
I am his hero right now, because I fixed his tablet after the screen had gone green.
I cleaned his finger prints and snot off the glass with a wet tissue, lo and behold it is now working.
Ask me why it now works fine ? My best theory, after 50 years using these things, is quantum effects and positive thinking :ugeek:
Ask me why my mum could stop watches she wore, same answer.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Here be a magical one horned pony?

At least with the forum some help is here.
The help sometimes comes pre coloured with opinion :shock:
Is it better than the old days with data books, 300 baud modems and bulletin boards?

Student cannot find the answer on google? Then it is impossible, cannot be done :roll:

The early adopters are the Elite, I'm talking to anyone with a model B ;)
Not because we think we know more but because we saw the future.

You do not need to know how a car works to drive it, yet some like to lift the hood and hit things with hammers.
Now don't let the smoke out.
There is always more than one way to skin a cat, the quality of this thread shows there is hope here, now just needs to be focused, which it is doing on its own, the input to this thread has been outstanding, your input has been quite good too, but people must never forget how hard it was for them to learn and take that into account, that article in the reply before lays it all out so well.
MyPi Developer
http://mypiworld.com/
http://mypi.tech/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US2nyRgg-SY&nohtml5=False

BMS Doug
Posts: 3824
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:42 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: 10 Million Raspberry PIs

Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:27 pm

johnb_summers wrote: There is always more than one way to skin a cat, the quality of this thread shows there is hope here, now just needs to be focused, which it is doing on its own, the input to this thread has been outstanding, your input has been quite good too, but people must never forget how hard it was for them to learn and take that into account, that article in the reply before lays it all out so well.
I think that you also need to take into account the different circumstances of a teacher who has to impart their subject material to their pupils and a forum where help is requested and given.

The teacher has a duty to pass their instruction to the pupil, and as such must modify their teaching style to match the pupils knowledge.

The forumites have no duty but are happy to help and pass their knowledge on but if the person asking the question doesn't understand the answer given it is up to them to request clarification.

all people are not equal, some find learning to code much harder than others. How can those who found it easy appreciate the difficulty of those to whom it doesn't come naturally, they just don't have the context.

(I've seen people struggle to understand wiring diagrams, I can see that it is hard for them but I have no idea why, wiring diagrams have always been simple for me to follow. I can emphasize with their difficulty but I can't explain to them why they are easy for me or how to make it easier for them (and believe me I have tried).)
Doug.
Building Management Systems Engineer.

Aydan
Posts: 689
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:48 am
Location: Germany, near Lake Constance

Re: 10 Million Raspberry PIs

Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:23 pm

BMS Doug wrote:Hmm, by my definition Burngate is among the elite (because I'm not using it as a negative term).
Correct. Belonging to the elite does not mean one is elitist. Just as being elitist does not mean one is among the elite. ;o)

Regards
Aydan

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 10763
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: 10 Million Raspberry PIs

Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:36 pm

jamesh wrote:If people think this place is elitist, they should try some of the other Linux forums! This place is a haven in comparison.

But that said, if you have a problem with a post REPORT IT!

This forum is reactively moderated, we can only deal with stuff we are told about. This works well. I've had to temp ban a number of people that others would regard as 'elite' posters for being nobbers. Generally they just need a polite reminder.
Reminds me of the time someone asked a question on comp.unix.questions and ended it with, "...and don't tell me to RTFM if you WTFM." That was appropriate because some of the people that answered questions on that group had not only written the manual pages, they'd written the programs.

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 10763
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: 10 Million Raspberry PIs

Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:51 pm

Too many really good comments to address things point by point...

What I *try* to do (not sure how successfully) is to pitch the level of detail of my answers to the knowledge of the person asking the question, to the degree that I can discern it. As a result, I try to explain background in much more detail in Beginners and rather less so in Troubleshooting.

BMS Doug
Posts: 3824
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:42 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: 10 Million Raspberry PIs

Wed Sep 14, 2016 2:12 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:Too many really good comments to address things point by point...

What I *try* to do (not sure how successfully) is to pitch the level of detail of my answers to the knowledge of the person asking the question, to the degree that I can discern it. As a result, I try to explain background in much more detail in Beginners and rather less so in Troubleshooting.

First Re-emfozzle the Globuncle by 3 metadromsicals...

... you don't know how to re-emfozzle? what do they teach in school these days?
Doug.
Building Management Systems Engineer.

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 23372
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: 10 Million Raspberry PIs

Wed Sep 14, 2016 3:09 pm

Forums stats

STATISTICS
Total posts 1006020 • Total topics 146496 • Total members 179217 •

So, we don't appear to be doing too badly TBH.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
"My grief counseller just died, luckily, he was so good, I didn't care."

User avatar
bensimmo
Posts: 4156
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:02 pm
Location: East Yorkshire

Re: 10 Million Raspberry PIs

Wed Sep 14, 2016 3:20 pm

10Million is about the population of Wales, Scotland and N.Ireland.

User avatar
davidcoton
Posts: 4027
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:37 pm
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: 10 Million Raspberry PIs

Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:52 pm

jamesh wrote:Forums stats

STATISTICS
Total posts 1006020 • Total topics 146496 • Total members 179217 •

So, we don't appear to be doing too badly TBH.
So your average Pi has made 0.1 posts. I'm not sure what to conclude from that, but maybe this forum, when it is finally redesigned, oughtr to have a Pink Unicorn theme.

Because.
Signature retired

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 10763
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: 10 Million Raspberry PIs

Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:59 pm

davidcoton wrote:
jamesh wrote:Forums stats

STATISTICS
Total posts 1006020 • Total topics 146496 • Total members 179217 •

So, we don't appear to be doing too badly TBH.
So your average Pi has made 0.1 posts. I'm not sure what to conclude from that, but maybe this forum, when it is finally redesigned, oughtr to have a Pink Unicorn theme.
Some conclusions....
1. Most Pis are owned by people who do not post and do not have a Forum account.
2. One average, there is less than one thread started per Forum account.
3. Since it's pretty obvious that some people start multiple threads, this implies that many people with Forum accounts never start a thread.
4. On average, there are less than 6 posts per Forum account.
5. Since some posters have thousands of posts, it is likely that many (most?) people with Forum accounts never post.

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Posts: 23372
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: 10 Million Raspberry PIs

Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:11 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
davidcoton wrote:
jamesh wrote:Forums stats

STATISTICS
Total posts 1006020 • Total topics 146496 • Total members 179217 •

So, we don't appear to be doing too badly TBH.
So your average Pi has made 0.1 posts. I'm not sure what to conclude from that, but maybe this forum, when it is finally redesigned, oughtr to have a Pink Unicorn theme.
Some conclusions....
1. Most Pis are owned by people who do not post and do not have a Forum account.
2. One average, there is less than one thread started per Forum account.
3. Since it's pretty obvious that some people start multiple threads, this implies that many people with Forum accounts never start a thread.
4. On average, there are less than 6 posts per Forum account.
5. Since some posters have thousands of posts, it is likely that many (most?) people with Forum accounts never post.
Agree with all of those.

I believe the number of new threads has indeed dropped off, which is a good thing. It means the data both here and elsewhere is helping most people before they need to post. It also means that most people who buy a Pi are able to find answers without help, also a good thing.
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
Contrary to popular belief, humorous signatures are allowed. Here's an example...
"My grief counseller just died, luckily, he was so good, I didn't care."

User avatar
Gavinmc42
Posts: 3630
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:31 am

Re: 10 Million Raspberry PIs

Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:39 am

I believe the number of new threads has indeed dropped off, which is a good thing. It means the data both here and elsewhere is helping most people before they need to post. It also means that most people who buy a Pi are able to find answers without help, also a good thing.
Hmm RPF takes over google?
Yep, I am finding more answers on the forum posts than google searching these days.
About the only thing googling Pi is good for, is finding interesting projects people have done with Pi's.
Probably too Elitist(boasting) if someone posts their projects here?

Most people with Pi's don't post? Because no need? RPF's education job done ;)
Too busy driving Pi's and no need to learn how they work?
How many people these days know how to swap DDR memory sticks or need too?

Or are Pi's sold mainly to people who enjoy figuring things out themselves.
The tech equivalent of Sudoku or crossword puzzles.
I'm dancing on Rainbows.
Raspberries are not Apples or Oranges

User avatar
Laurens-wuyts
Posts: 716
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:35 pm
Location: Belgium
Contact: Website

Re: 10 Million Raspberry PIs

Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:33 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:1. Most Pis are owned by people who do not post and do not have a Forum account.
You forgot that quite a few people here have multiple RPi's. :)

Laurens

BMS Doug
Posts: 3824
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:42 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: 10 Million Raspberry PIs

Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:25 am

Laurens-wuyts wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote:1. Most Pis are owned by people who do not post and do not have a Forum account.
You forgot that quite a few people here have multiple RPi's. :)

Laurens
I'm not sure that there are enough people with enough Pi's to skew the statistics that much.

10 000 000 Pi's sold
00 179 217 Forum accounts.
55 raspberry Pi's per forum account.

We would need an average forumite to own 28 Raspberry Pi's before W. H. Heydt's statement was incorrect, I don't know of many forumites who own that many.
Doug.
Building Management Systems Engineer.

User avatar
Laurens-wuyts
Posts: 716
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:35 pm
Location: Belgium
Contact: Website

Re: 10 Million Raspberry PIs

Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:28 am

BMS Doug wrote:I'm not sure that there are enough people with enough Pi's to skew the statistics that much.

10 000 000 Pi's sold
00 179 217 Forum accounts.
55 raspberry Pi's per forum account.

We would need an average forumite to own 28 Raspberry Pi's before W. H. Heydt's statement was incorrect, I don't know of many forumites who own that many.
Yeah, that's a little to much, thanks for doing the maths. ;)
10 million is more than it seems.

Laurens

BMS Doug
Posts: 3824
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:42 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: 10 Million Raspberry PIs

Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:32 am

Laurens-wuyts wrote: Yeah, that's a little to much, thanks for doing the maths. ;)
10 million is more than it seems.

Laurens
Big numbers are crazy, I can't get my head around 10 million.

Many of these will be being used as media boxes or retrogames consoles, perhaps without the owner even knowing there is a Pi inside the box.

I hope that there are plenty in schools too.

(I know my daughters primary are trying to get hold of some, I've offered them a few to borrow until they get started).
Doug.
Building Management Systems Engineer.

User avatar
johnb_summers
Posts: 285
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:48 pm
Location: Bushey UK

Re: 10 Million Raspberry PIs

Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:35 am

BMS Doug wrote:
Laurens-wuyts wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote:1. Most Pis are owned by people who do not post and do not have a Forum account.
You forgot that quite a few people here have multiple RPi's. :)

Laurens
I'm not sure that there are enough people with enough Pi's to skew the statistics that much.

10 000 000 Pi's sold
00 179 217 Forum accounts.
55 raspberry Pi's per forum account.

We would need an average forumite to own 28 Raspberry Pi's before W. H. Heydt's statement was incorrect, I don't know of many forumites who own that many.
I have brought 5 Raspberry pi 2's, 3 Raspberry pi 3's and one Zero, one raspberry Pi 2 is dead, leaving 4 2's, I bought the zero on the first day it came out, I have failed to keep it on for longer than a week, but it was one of the first zeros made. in fact I have lost all confidence in the zero and would not use it for anything but I hear the new zeros work much better.
MyPi Developer
http://mypiworld.com/
http://mypi.tech/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US2nyRgg-SY&nohtml5=False

BMS Doug
Posts: 3824
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:42 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: 10 Million Raspberry PIs

Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:44 am

johnb_summers wrote: I have bought 5 Raspberry pi 2's, 3 Raspberry pi 3's and one Zero, one raspberry Pi 2 is dead, leaving 4 2's, I bought the zero on the first day it came out, I have failed to keep it on for longer than a week, but it was one of the first zeros made. in fact I have lost all confidence in the zero and would not use it for anything but I hear the new zeros work much better.

I haven't had any problems with the zero, but I haven't tried to keep them running continuously.

I have one setup as a robot controller, it works perfectly every time I turn it on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-B65ZwbjXnU

i was using another one to mess around with, no problems so far but only on for a couple of hours at a time.
Doug.
Building Management Systems Engineer.

Pithagoros
Posts: 580
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:16 pm

Re: 10 Million Raspberry PIs

Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:56 am

BMS Doug wrote:
We would need an average forumite to own 28 Raspberry Pi's before W. H. Heydt's statement was incorrect, I don't know of many forumites who own that many.
Personally, I've been through far more Pis than 28. All of mine are still working, I've got original 256MB PI Bs still doing useful work.
I don't know how many Pis I have around now, but I do believe that I have given away more than 28.

User avatar
johnb_summers
Posts: 285
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:48 pm
Location: Bushey UK

Re: 10 Million Raspberry PIs

Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:03 am

BMS Doug wrote:
johnb_summers wrote: I have bought 5 Raspberry pi 2's, 3 Raspberry pi 3's and one Zero, one raspberry Pi 2 is dead, leaving 4 2's, I bought the zero on the first day it came out, I have failed to keep it on for longer than a week, but it was one of the first zeros made. in fact I have lost all confidence in the zero and would not use it for anything but I hear the new zeros work much better.

I haven't had any problems with the zero, but I haven't tried to keep them running continuously.

I have one setup as a robot controller, it works perfectly every time I turn it on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-B65ZwbjXnU

i was using another one to mess around with, no problems so far but only on for a couple of hours at a time.
I come from a background where everything I made was on 24/7, and all my projects are like that, I have the 4 pi 2 on all the time and at the moment only one pi 3 is on, the two others are being worked on, I have 2 demo pis on 24/7 with the current software running, being on all the time also test the auto updating of the software I write for them. the pi 2 demo is on http://mypiworld.com/demo and the pi 3 demo is on http://mypiworld.com/demo3 I did have the zero setup to be a demo with the same software but it never lasted more than a week so removed its static IP. in the p2 demo you can see the state of the other pi 2 that are networked to it, 3 are in my lab and one(office) is in my sons house. when I fin the software, you will be able to edit and program all the pi's from just one pi using the web interface, no need for a screen connected or remote desktop, this way the pis can be built into the fabric of a building or machine, with just a service hatch to replace units, just power and RJ45 connections or wireless. soon the I2C stuff will be fin and each pi will be able to control over 2000 i2c chips(I know that 127 devices is the supposed limit but I have pushed that up to over 2000 and bus lengths up to 50 meters instead of 2 meters). soon the office pi will be a demo showing the long I2C buses and devices, he has a long garden and it will be wired up with just one pi inside the house.
MyPi Developer
http://mypiworld.com/
http://mypi.tech/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US2nyRgg-SY&nohtml5=False

BMS Doug
Posts: 3824
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:42 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: 10 Million Raspberry PIs

Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:20 am

Pithagoros wrote:
BMS Doug wrote:
We would need an average forumite to own 28 Raspberry Pi's before W. H. Heydt's statement was incorrect, I don't know of many forumites who own that many.
Personally, I've been through far more Pis than 28. All of mine are still working, I've got original 256MB PI Bs still doing useful work.
I don't know how many Pis I have around now, but I do believe that I have given away more than 28.
but the given away ones don't count towards your total, they now have new owners (who may or may not have forum accounts) so only the current owner of the Pi counts.


I don't count the 6 Pi zero's that I have given away towards the total of 11 Pi's that I have.
3x Pi0
3x Pi3
1x Pi2
1x PiB+
1x PiB
2x PiA+
johnb_summers wrote: I come from a background where everything I made was on 24/7, and all my projects are like that, I have the 4 pi 2 on all the time and at the moment only one pi 3 is on, the two others are being worked on, I have 2 demo pis on 24/7 with the current software running, being on all the time also test the auto updating of the software I write for them. the pi 2 demo is on http://mypiworld.com/demo and the pi 3 demo is on http://mypiworld.com/demo3 I did have the zero setup to be a demo with the same software but it never lasted more than a week so removed its static IP. in the p2 demo you can see the state of the other pi 2 that are networked to it, 3 are in my lab and one(office) is in my sons house. when I fin the software, you will be able to edit and program all the pi's from just one pi using the web interface, no need for a screen connected or remote desktop, this way the pis can be built into the fabric of a building or machine, with just a service hatch to replace units, just power and RJ45 connections or wireless. soon the I2C stuff will be fin and each pi will be able to control over 2000 i2c chips(I know that 127 devices is the supposed limit but I have pushed that up to over 2000 and bus lengths up to 50 meters instead of 2 meters). soon the office pi will be a demo showing the long I2C buses and devices, he has a long garden and it will be wired up with just one pi inside the house.
Nice setup, is it stable on a B+? It might be too much for the single core of the BCM2835, which could be why you have better luck with the Pi2 and Pi3.

Have you considered a compute module for it? You would need to design your own base board but it might suit your needs better, the CM1 is still available (if your project is stable on a B+) and the CM3 will be out (eventually).
Doug.
Building Management Systems Engineer.

Return to “General discussion”