dom
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 possible h.265 decoder?

Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:51 pm

gkreidl wrote:German DVB-T will switch to T2 with 1080p50 H265 in about 6 weeks. I think that's a job which the current RPi will not be able to do.
No, that is too much. We have looked at sample streams.
They also broadcast [email protected] and [email protected] [email protected] doesn't currently play, but it's one of the examples we are trying to cope with.

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Paul Webster
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 possible h.265 decoder?

Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:40 pm

gkreidl wrote: No, everything will be in full HD and only H265. People have to buy new hardware (a receiver box for older TVs).
First step in a 2 year rollout according to this

http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2016/06/ ... -channels/

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 possible h.265 decoder?

Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:52 pm

Paul Webster wrote:
gkreidl wrote: No, everything will be in full HD and only H265. People have to buy new hardware (a receiver box for older TVs).
First step in a 2 year rollout according to this

http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2016/06/ ... -channels/
Large urban areas means that it will be available for 80% of all people by end of March. They are running a test in these areas for 6 months already (a few HD channels). The quality is brilliant.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 possible h.265 decoder?

Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:25 pm

Raspberry Pi 3 can decode h.265 480p video in software. I did some test encodes on my PC using DVD and Blu-Ray and the results confirm h.265 is basically worthless for lower resolutions. Unless you're wanting to watch 4k video, I wouldn't bother with it.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 possible h.265 decoder?

Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:01 am

thanks!

and how hard would it be to get this kodi VideoPlayer running on raspbian?
where can i get it from?

maybe i really just should get another raspberry pi and use kodi. :)

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 possible h.265 decoder?

Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:28 am

spock wrote:
maybe i really just should get another raspberry pi and use kodi. :)
To use Kodi you need an underlying Operating System: https://kodi.tv
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 possible h.265 decoder?

Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:44 am

yes, with kodi i actually meant libreelec. i always mix this up.

...

the good thing is that most movies aren't 16:9 but something like 2.39:1. so 1080p actually is more like 800p. less work for the raspberry pi. :)

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 possible h.265 decoder?

Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:25 am

rtfmoz wrote:The driving factor for h.265 support is this will become the mainstream. Essentially everything will be encoded using this format in the coming years.
You really think so, really ? Look very closely at the member list here, including the company names starting with "G" "A" "N" "I" and "M", and "B". The codec will be license free for everyone ... enormous savings to be made by those paying money.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_ ... ia#Members

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 possible h.265 decoder?

Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:40 pm

As the thread title is about a Pi4 - I'd like to see at least 2GB ram & USB3 as a minimum.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 possible h.265 decoder?

Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:46 pm

k-pi wrote:As the thread title is about a Pi4 - I'd like to see at least 2GB ram & USB3 as a minimum.
It's about H265. Generally, threads about what people want on the next Pi get shut down, because, well, its a waste of bandwidth. The RPF is not run by idiots, and making suggestions for the next Pi makes no difference to what will be on the next Pi. So, keep it to H265.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 possible h.265 decoder?

Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:14 pm

Hi all,
also terrestrial broadcasting transition to DVB-T2 with HEVC transition just started in CZ. It's planned for ~3 years to switch dvb-t to dvb-t2 with HEVC
Currently there is available 1st transition DVB-T2 mux covering 25% population and carrying only SD channels.

MM

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 possible h.265 decoder?

Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:35 pm

We've looked at German dvb-t2 streams. They use 8-bit hevc with:
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]

The 50fps output is a bit of a killer, so [email protected] will never be possible with Pi3.
However we have recently got [email protected] and [email protected] streams playing well on Pi3.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 possible h.265 decoder?

Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:40 pm

I've used several Pi's as media centers for about three years until h265 started to become popular recently. I had to switch to Hardkernel's Odroid C2 with LibreElec 8 to deal with h265 content.

Odroid C2 is a similar price to the Pi and has working hardware h265 decoding up to 4k. I've tested up to 1080p 10bit at 30fps and the Odroid works flawlessly, can't comment on its 4k performance though.

I don't see why the Pi can't incorporate hardware h265 support too, maybe someone can explain to me why Hardkernel can do it but Pi can't?

I'm not the biggest fan of Odroids, about one in two arrive DOA (we use a lot of them at work) and they only give you 30 days to return it from purchase date. I really wish Pi would step up to the h265 plate.

I don't know how much people know about h265 here but the quality and compression on cartoon/animation content is jaw dropping, it really leaves h264 for dead in this area, h264 doesn't even compare. For normal film content it's pretty much equal to h264 in terms of quality vs filesize but is improving as h265 matures, however at higher compressions h265 retains a fair amount of detail whereas h264 gets blocky. Typically you can get half the filesize of h264 out of h265 before a film gets noticeably degraded and unwatchable.

H265 is only going to get better over the years. I still remember when h264 came out, it had plenty of issues too.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 possible h.265 decoder?

Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:57 pm

don't see why the Pi can't incorporate hardware h265 support too, maybe someone can explain to me why Hardkernel can do it but Pi can't?
https://www.arm.com/files/event/Mali_Pa ... 0_GPUs.pdf

Page 12
HEVC is a newly ratified standard and there is no hardware support in the current generation of Processors (Embedded / Mobile / Applications SoCs
No hardware support on the Pi in the old VC4 for h.265 because it was designed before h.265.
A really good programmer might be able to do h.265 in software on 64bit Aarch64 with NEON help?
I think Pi was done in 40nm and h.265 hardware needs 28nm?

Now that 4K screens are out maybe Broadcom will play nice with RPF.
To get a Pi 4 with h.265 the chip must support it. BCM set top box chips can do it
https://www.broadcom.com/products/broad ... t-top-box/
But they are not a Pi chip with camera and LCD interfaces etc.

4K/8K video is a lot of data, you are expecting a lot for a $4? chip.
Even your Odroid C2 with a newer more expensive chip struggles.
RPF is not in the business of making media servers, they have a clearly defined market.
It is education.
RPF is not a multibillion dollar company that can design state of the art chips quickly.

Check other forums for more info ie OSMC, Kodi.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 possible h.265 decoder?

Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:10 pm

ALM865 wrote:I've used several Pi's as media centers for about three years until h265 started to become popular recently. I had to switch to Hardkernel's Odroid C2 with LibreElec 8 to deal with h265 content.

Odroid C2 is a similar price to the Pi and has working hardware h265 decoding up to 4k. I've tested up to 1080p 10bit at 30fps and the Odroid works flawlessly, can't comment on its 4k performance though.

I don't see why the Pi can't incorporate hardware h265 support too, maybe someone can explain to me why Hardkernel can do it but Pi can't?

I'm not the biggest fan of Odroids, about one in two arrive DOA (we use a lot of them at work) and they only give you 30 days to return it from purchase date. I really wish Pi would step up to the h265 plate.

I don't know how much people know about h265 here but the quality and compression on cartoon/animation content is jaw dropping, it really leaves h264 for dead in this area, h264 doesn't even compare. For normal film content it's pretty much equal to h264 in terms of quality vs filesize but is improving as h265 matures, however at higher compressions h265 retains a fair amount of detail whereas h264 gets blocky. Typically you can get half the filesize of h264 out of h265 before a film gets noticeably degraded and unwatchable.

H265 is only going to get better over the years. I still remember when h264 came out, it had plenty of issues too.
H264 and H265 are actually very similar, so H264 quality can be just as good as H265, but just requires more bits to do it. H265 can do similar quality to H264 but as sometimes lesss than half the bitrate, as you state. Much of the difference is down to allowing arbitrary macroblock sizes.

However, H265 is different enough to require a completely new HD design. And designing an HEVC/H265 codec in HW is not easy, and therefor not cheap. It requires exceptionally fast and clever HW and also RAM, which means better memory controllers etc, especially if you want to encode. Decoding is easier, but still requires the HW change.

This is not available on the VC4. Which is why the Pi doesn't have it. To move to H265 would require a new chip. And new chips are VERY expensive to make.

You can use the ARM cores for H265 decoding - you can I believe get some pretty impressive performance using all four cores and NEON. 720p30 is easily achievable. However,you will likely need a heatsink.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 possible h.265 decoder?

Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:06 am

That's very old news, Since 2013 hardware H265 decoding has been a thing (Samsung Galaxy S4 debuted with it), maybe not in the Pi's price range but it's now four years later and counting. And Hardkernel isn't the only company with a low cost Hardware H265 decoder, Amlogic S805 does it too for about $50AUD, slightly cheaper than the Pi3 here in Australia.
No hardware support on the Pi in the old VC4 for h.265 because it was designed before h.265.
A really good programmer might be able to do h.265 in software on 64bit Aarch64 with NEON help?
I think Pi was done in 40nm and h.265 hardware needs 28nm?
Yes, the Pi3, but this thread is about the Pi4 is it not? If the Pi4 is still on 40nm technology we might as well be saying good bye to the Pi. Everyone is bringing out low cost credit card sized boards these days, the NanoPi's by Friendly Arm are less than the cost of the Pi with almost identical specs except at a much smaller size.
H264 and H265 are actually very similar, so H264 quality can be just as good as H265, but just requires more bits to do it. H265 can do similar quality to H264 but as sometimes lesss than half the bitrate, as you state. Much of the difference is down to allowing arbitrary macroblock sizes.

However, H265 is different enough to require a completely new HD design. And designing an HEVC/H265 codec in HW is not easy, and therefor not cheap. It requires exceptionally fast and clever HW and also RAM, which means better memory controllers etc, especially if you want to encode. Decoding is easier, but still requires the HW change.

This is not available on the VC4. Which is why the Pi doesn't have it. To move to H265 would require a new chip. And new chips are VERY expensive to make.

You can use the ARM cores for H265 decoding - you can I believe get some pretty impressive performance using all four cores and NEON. 720p30 is easily achievable. However,you will likely need a heatsink.
Yes all true, I can't argue with any of what you said. I understand H265 HW support needs some fast and clever HW, the existing Pi3 will never be able to do reliable H265 decoding at 30fps 1080p+ and neither will the design improvements in the future based on the existing architecture. Maybe if H265 have some breakthrough on the decoding side of things that allows decoding with less grunt, but that's wishful thinking at this stage...

I know it's hard from Pi's perspective, so many people wanting the world from a inexpensive SBC. I'm just hoping (key word 'hopeing') things like H265 support won't be overlooked in the Pi4 because it'll be a real deal breaker for me and quite a few people I reckon. Everything else in the Pi3 is spot on, grunt is good, memory is adequate, connectivity is okay (100Mbps Network and USB2 can limit what you do with the Pi though, again wanting the world from a SBC...).

I know the Pi originally set out to be a low cost learning tool but it's being used for so much more. I see things like Pi based PLC's, media centers, weather stations, data loggers, etc and it's fantastic. The absolute best thing about the Pi is the support from the community, everything just works the way it should unlike some of the other players (like Hardkernel) that release things half finished. That's why I want H265 support so badly in the Pi4 because I know it will work, and work well, if Pi decide to implement it that is ;) I also know we won't get any answers about the next Pi release, I've seen many of these threads and they all end the same...

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 possible h.265 decoder?

Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:46 am

That's very old news
And so is the VC4 design ;)

Ok, h.265 added to the list with USB3, 1Gb Ethernet, 2GB ram and 4K video, SATA?

Maybe just h.265 in hardware and a few USB C connectors.
Keep same footprint use 2 USB -C instead of HDMI connector.

Could make it smaller but why? We have Zero's
GPIO and just one USB-C?
http://www.cypress.com/products/ez-pd-c ... controller

Power /HDMI over the one cable, Pi4 same size as a Zero, just with a big cable mess :lol:
Without all those USB/Ether jacks, Pi4 is same size as A+.
Hmm, USB-C actually makes sense.

I don't use Pi's as media players, no time to watch, too busy using them to learn to code.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 possible h.265 decoder?

Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:55 am

ALM865 wrote: Yes, the Pi3, but this thread is about the Pi4 is it not? If the Pi4 is still on 40nm technology we might as well be saying good bye to the Pi.
I think you overstate the hit to the Pis future if the Pi4 is a 40nm part. However, some conversations I've had lead me to strongly suspect that the Pi4--when it eventually arrives--will be a 28nm part. I also suspect that there may be changes to the VC4, though what it will be called is anybody's guess--VC4.2? VC4.5? VC5? While I don't do media work with Pis at all (and I don't even own a TV), H.265 would seem to be a reasonable upgrade, as would a general 4K capability. Rather more useful would be USB 3 and the *potential* (even if not--initially--the actuality) of more than 1GB RAM. Personally, upgrade to USB 3, do it at 28nm (power and, therefore, heat reduction) and *all* other specifications *identical* to the Pi3, then make a CM4L (and WD can make an upgraded SATA Adapter...or something better), and I will be very, very happy.

As for the otehr boards mentioned...how good is the software support and community? I think that has a bigger impact on SBC success than the hardware details.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 possible h.265 decoder?

Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:58 am

Hmmm sadly the vc4 team was dissolved by Broadcom. Afaik only Eric Anholt is working on it and that too on the driver and not the hardware. So I doubt their would be any vc4.2 or vc5.

However the video decoder part is separate from the vc4, perhaps if the node is dropped from 40 to 28, we could still have vc4 but with a separate h265 decoder.

If rpf decides to change the gpu I am guessing it will be mali, but I am hoping for a vc5 because i really like Anholt's work on he driver.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 possible h.265 decoder?

Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:26 am

I think you overstate the hit to the Pis future if the Pi4 is a 40nm part.
Maybe, nobody knows for sure, only time will tell.

Having used Pi's as a development platform at work and hitting the hardware limitations due to no USB3, gigabit ethernet etc basically forced us to move the the Odroid XU4, we've since used close to 100 of the Odroids and their performance is very impressive (that's 100 less Pi's that could have been sold). I've also been forced away from the Pi's at home both for development and play because of various hardware limitations, I've personally bought 10 Pi's over the last few years and probably won't buy any more at this point in time since there's better stuff out there. If the Pi3 doesn't evolve in some way to catch up to what's out there now it's just going to be left behind.

Community only takes it so far, little things like H265 support may be a deal breaker for it's use in some projects. Basically everyone I know wouldn't buy a Pi anymore due to various limitations (not necessarily because of just the H265 thing). Sure you'll still get noobs buying them to learn to code and linux but I really don't think that's where most of the Pi's have been sold (although that was their original purpose).
As for the otehr boards mentioned...how good is the software support and community? I think that has a bigger impact on SBC success than the hardware details.
Hardkernel/Odroid support: Very very good, the engineers actively work with you to fix any issues you find community: virtually non-existent which is sometimes very frustrating when you are coding and you have to wait a few days for technical questions.
I don't use Pi's as media players, no time to watch, too busy using them to learn to code.
I'm well past the stage of learning how to code, slapping together a working program I can pretty much do with my eyes closed. Sure Pi's work fine for tiny projects like trying to communicate with BMP180's, MPU-6050's and the like but the limitations become crippling for some larger projects. Again it depends what you are doing, at work we deal with high speed thermal cameras and the Pi just can't do it full stop... but the Odroid can simply because it has Gigabit ethernet.
Maybe just h.265 in hardware and a few USB C connectors.
Keep same footprint use 2 USB -C instead of HDMI connector.
As you say H265 and USB-C would fix most of the limitations I come across too, you can get USB to whatever these days. My issues are rarely because I'm hitting the limit of the CPU or ram, I would say they are sufficient for the moment, just code smarter.

Again, everyone wants the world from a SBC, yes you can't have everything... pink unicorns are tomorrows horses is what I say, give it 10 years we will be laughing at how lame H265 and USB-C was.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 possible h.265 decoder?

Sat Apr 01, 2017 6:01 am

ALM865 wrote: Community only takes it so far, little things like H265 support may be a deal breaker for it's use in some projects.
Hardkernel/Odroid support: Very very good, the engineers actively work with you to fix any issues you find community: virtually non-existent which is sometimes very frustrating when you are coding and you have to wait a few days for technical questions.
I don't use Pi's as media players, no time to watch, too busy using them to learn to code.
I'm well past the stage of learning how to code, slapping together a working program I can pretty much do with my eyes closed. Sure Pi's work fine for tiny projects like trying to communicate with BMP180's, MPU-6050's and the like but the limitations become crippling for some larger projects. Again it depends what you are doing, at work we deal with high speed thermal cameras and the Pi just can't do it full stop... but the Odroid can simply because it has Gigabit ethernet.
Again, everyone wants the world from a SBC, yes you can't have everything... pink unicorns are tomorrows horses is what I say, give it 10 years we will be laughing at how lame H265 and USB-C was.
One big difference between Odroid, ASUS etc. and Raspberry Pi is that the latter is partly UK tax payer funded through their Charity: therefore Raspberry should theoretically favor education over all other applications (specially commercial ones). As H265 support is not a must for school education nor high speed camera stuff or embedded setups, other priorities should take the lead, like keeping a Web browser up to date and ¨low¨ resolution media playback over say Germany´s latest HDTV- 4K standards.
(It is true that in these forums school education has tiny a minority voice).

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 possible h.265 decoder?

Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:28 am

Honestly if new hardware were to be planned now, I'd rather the Foundation wait till AV1(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOMedia_Video_1) is complete. HEVC is a mess due to patent licensing and would lower any profit that can be made with the Pi. VP9 is also at best a stop gap right now due to a flawed standard (All of the bugs currently being addressed in AV1).

That and USB-C with Displayport as Alt-Mode, and the power hungry Cortex A53s swapped out for A35s.

Oh and throw out the old MPEG-2, VC1 and H264 HW codecs. Those can be done in software in the future. It would also allow a fully open source vc4 driver with one good codec to support and shave another 20 cents off every Pi.
Last edited by bstrobl on Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:43 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 possible h.265 decoder?

Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:40 am

WebRTC?
Ok, AV1 is worth waiting for, RPF take your time :lol:

Die shrink to 28nm should help with the power?
Quad ARMv8-A73 and quad ARMv8-R52.
The R52's for real time control stuff.

Of course by the time it is designed better cores will be out :lol:

Use A35's in the next Zero/A+/B+, full 64 bit family :P
Since we have redesigned the whole family lets stick the latest Mali 830 in.
But 830's are only16x16 blocksize, 64x64 for best H.265?
Mali-G71/51 specs?

Going Mali for next GPU, lose camera stuff? Maybe not.
https://www.arm.com/products/graphics-a ... ive-camera

Hopefully Pi4 will have full manuals ;)

Maybe the next version of this will use Pi's
https://community.arm.com/iot/embedded/ ... cation-kit
If RPF sticks around I won't run out of things to learn :lol:
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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 possible h.265 decoder?

Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:53 pm

I would have thought the display market (A's and CM's) may be needing this at some point, if not now.

ok so I don't quite understand 265/264 etc. or what the difference is between Germany using T2 and the UK's T2 that we've been using for the past 7 years now. (or S2 for that matter).

but a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Effi ... deo_Coding says you may as well forget about it and look towards VC1

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Re: Raspberry Pi 4 possible h.265 decoder?

Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:46 pm

As h265 seems a future maybe will happen, may I suggest that rather than pontificating just buy a different SBC !!
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