mmkw43 wrote:it's performance
Please, this is a website dedicated in some sense to education and there are impressionable youths potentially reading who could be confused by this. The possessive of it is its and not it's which is the contraction of it is.FlexibleSigmoid wrote: it's availability
How embarrassing, their must be a way to add a grammar check before people post there work. They're's so much room for blunders as it is now.stderr wrote:mmkw43 wrote:it's performancePlease, this is a website dedicated in some sense to education and there are impressionable youths potentially reading who could be confused by this. The possessive of it is its and not it's which is the contraction of it is.FlexibleSigmoid wrote: it's availability
Correct, so an unenclosed "official" power supply won't happen.stderr wrote: Regarding the power supply issue, the pi people shouldn't be selling something that exposes mains to end users, the point made by another poster. This danger is real in North America at 117v but is very great in countries using 230v. If they were to sell a 5 volt supply and covered it with the required protective materials, essentially they'd have a wall wart, so the main argument for that would be that they'd presumably enforce some sort of quality and safety to the devices, which have been often lacking.
It's a minority requirement, unlikely to happen any time soon.stderr wrote: I've argued for including the capability of using an unregulated 12 volt supply ...
The whole reason for using USB connectors was that it uses an established standard of 5V, thus avoiding the problems that arise with barrel connectors (different voltages and polarity on the same connector type, slightly different sizes that are pluggable but make poor contact). I can no longer say what I feel about this suggestion (even if you intended to post with a or similar) since I would be reported and deleted, see this post.stderr wrote: The next trick is to provide 12 volts on USB.
FlexibleSigmoid wrote:The power supply is kind of a catch-22. The wall wart style is pretty universal in it's availability and there's not a need for a supplier to stock a different style for each outlet configuration and voltage supply (since mains power configurations differ so widely.) But that also means that quite often the problems that people have with the RasPi is due to an under-performing power supply or a thin USB cable. Do you think the value added would be worth the investment for a Raspberry Pi Official power supply? Personally, I'd like them to stick with they know.
There already is an official Raspberry Pi Foundation power supply.mmkw43 wrote:Well, if they can design the PI -- certainly a power supply is within the realm of what they know.
Anyway, like I say just a thought. Besides, these PCB supplies are from China (wait time) and I'd rather get a PI approved module from MCM or whoever for 10 bucks.
This is only true if you believe that the wall wart itself has been designed soundly. It has been proved by taking them apart that there are a lot of questionable devices out there, and the source of at least some of them is some ebay sellers and the like.HawaiianPi wrote:Wall warts are ubiquitous now, and people are used to them. They also keep the dangerous high voltages well away from the device.
Man that is confusing. Does it make any grammatical sense at all ?The possessive of it is its and not it's which is the contraction of it is.
I'm not sure what your issue is with 12 volts, as I said, ATX has moved that way, some larger SBC boards are using 12 volts.davidcoton wrote:The whole reason for using USB connectors was that it uses an established standard of 5V, I can no longer say what I feel about this suggestion (even if you intended to post with a or similar) since I would be reported and deleted.stderr wrote:The next trick is to provide 12 volts on USB.
Are quotes ever required in English to parse it? In Ulysses, Joyce, as I recall, would write dialogue at least some of the time with a form something like this:Heater wrote:stderr,Man that is confusing. Does it make any grammatical sense at all ?The possessive of it is its and not it's which is the contraction of it is.
You are probably correct, although in the instant case there could be some further questions created, even as they might be mitigated by the judicious use of the escape character: \' .Perhaps it's just me but I can help thinking some quote marks in there would clarify it.
The issue with 12V on a USB connector is very clear. The USB spec requires 5V. Designing anything that puts 12V on it will break all the 5V USB equipment out there -- probably in a spectacular, permanent and expensive manner involving the escape of magic smoke.stderr wrote: I'm not sure what your issue is with 12 volts, as I said, ATX has moved that way, some larger SBC boards are using 12 volts.
Obviously I wasn't advocating putting 12 volts on the 5 volt lines, you are being silly.davidcoton wrote:the escape of magic smoke.stderr wrote: I'm not sure what your issue is with 12 volts, as I said, ATX has moved that way, some larger SBC boards are using 12 volts.
USB is a mess that has had major problems that didn't need to happen including, as I mentioned in another post, the bizarre fact that they can't seem to build the devices sized so that they can be actually plugged into each of the ports. You'd think the standard would mention the max size of the device or mention the distance between the ports. I suspect it mentions both but no one involved can add. I can't understand why more people aren't angry about this, don't you want to use all the USB ports on a pi?Standards are standards for a reason. Modifying them requires a lot of thought to avoid compatibility problems.
Of course the pi could just use the USB 5 volt support that would still be there. But I am absolutely advocating putting in support on the pi boards for higher voltages. I want to be able to use the abundant supply of unregulated 12 volt wall warts, or whatever is available, basically 20 volts and below unloaded. And I'd like to be able to use other 12 volt support such as is used to power yard lighting and while potentially more troublesome, automotive power. Having this is on the board means having a consistent expectation of capabilities.There is no issue with using 12V in itself. Of course it will need an extra regulator on every Pi, which will cost. Therefore it won't happen any time soon.
In the case of USB, it would be an augmented standard connector that adds in 12 volt and ground wires. It would be backward compatible in that if you don't have the 12 volt support coming in, the hub or whatever falls back to what it used to do or it fails gracefully if this is a new thing that can't be done without 12 volts. There are numerous situations where USB hubs today need their own wall wart, most of those would be not need them barring power need increases from things that previously were impossible.It would also require a different power connector,
Real PoE is beyond the scope of what I was talking about. By real I mean standards compliant. All the pi needs is a poor man's version that uses cheap to free 12 volt wall warts or whatever.unlikely that POE will go on board a Pi (cost benefit analysis says "No"). The low cost models don't have an ethernet socket anyway.
The pi needs 5 volts, especially if you are going to use the USB devices. The reason for 12 volt support is so that at a distance, you still have more than 5 volts. And the reduced current requirements.For them, a USB to wired ethernet dongle with POE supplying a 5V back feed would work (protection issues aside), and would be really neat.
Yes, because the one thing USB really needs is yet another "standard" added to the mess.davidcoton wrote:OK, you have an almost coherent case for a new USB standard with a new USB connector.
Support for this might cost less than a dollar. I saw some ebay dc to dc converters that purport to do this and they were two for a dollar with free shipping from the Moon or something. The conversion needs to occur somewhere, might as well have it at least partly on the pi itself.davidcoton wrote: not a good cost-effective case for putting 12V (or 5-20V) inputs on every Pi.
These are two different issues, one is adding in support for 12 volts to USB, something that the USB standards body would need to do. The other is adding in support for a broader choice of power voltages for pi boards, which would open up a lot of different power sources currently unavailable, potentially allowing powering boards in parallel which reduces the number of power supplies, and allowing powering from at least some reasonable distance. These are all good things. If USB supported 12 volts, that would be available in the above scenario on the pi, so I'm not clear why you think one precludes the other.You have one point of inconsistency. You argue for a 12V USB standard, but 5-20V on the Pi input. You can't (sensibly) have both.
The reason that there are so many problems with power is exactly the reason I'm suggesting looking at more options. The main problem seems to be that it takes a beefy 5 volt power supply to power the pi2 and pi3, especially the pi3 with its wifi. A lot of wall warts will plug in but won't work, a lot of USB ports will plug in but won't work, a lot of USB cables will plug in but won't carry the current well. So this use of the usb plug has not meant side stepping a lot of problems, although it has got around polarity issues and ensured that the power is likely a nominal 5 volts. This problem largely goes away if the pi supports higher voltages and is less critical about what the voltages actually are, because voltage drops, caused by too thin wire, are reduced or matter less.Do you really want to have to sort out people's power problems when the source can be not just 5V, but anything up to 20V? Even supplies nominally conforming to 5V USB specs cause enough issues, how do you tell people that they need 2.4A at 5V, or 1A at 12V, or ... ?
What happens right now when they put 5 volts on a 3.3 volt io line? I'd test this idea out on the pi zero whenever it gets its next redesign. Using the support would require soldering to the board, which should mean that the person either thinks a bit about what they are doing or should be thinking about it. I really can't see how this is more of a threat to anything than any pi hardware hacking is.And what are you going to say to the first punter after they confuse a 28V supply with the 18V one they thought they were using? Or the one whose cheapo PSU emits enough RF to block Bluetooth?
On a $5 Pi Zero? Not viable.stderr wrote: Support for this might cost less than a dollar.
Clearly. So why did you mix them up and present them together? For the reasons of economy I stated they are not compatible on a single Pi.stderr wrote:These are two different issues,
andstderr wrote:The reason that there are so many problems with power is exactly the reason I'm suggesting looking at more options.
So you solve a problem by making it bigger?stderr wrote:What happens right now when they put 5 volts on a 3.3 volt io line?
As I said, make a Hat. Kickstart it. When you have a major sales success other people will listen.stderr wrote: two for a dollar with free shipping
That's OK as long as you realise that you are bypassing the polyfuse.piglet wrote:I've ended up just throwing a 50p buck converter into the mix and wiring it to GPIOs on the 5v side and a barrel connector salvaged from my junk box and powering from a 12v supply.