sergioaav
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About Raspberry Pi 3 performance

Mon Jun 06, 2016 4:02 am

Hi everyone!

I'm thinking in entering the pi world but I saw a video that left me a little less animated comparing the pi performance for some tasks with the udoo. This is the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJkHxDjFuNA

I wanted to ask you guys if the pi's times to execute this tasks are really those showed on the video. I'm thinking in building a pi notebook for me so I can use for internet, writing texts, presentations with slides and maybe some programming.
My curiosity about this is because I live in brazil and the pi here isn't cheap as it is in other countries. I estimated that my project is gonna cost something around 1000,00 in brazilian currency. So, I need to do a good choice of hardware.

Can anyone help me out?

Thanks in advance.

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Burngate
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Re: About Raspberry Pi 3 performance

Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:15 am

Info: 1000 BRL = $285 (US) today.

Quick comparison:
UDOO x86 appears to be a black box. RPi is a box you can look into, but you can treat it like a black box.
UDO x 86 seems to cost about three times as much as the Pi

ghodan
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Re: About Raspberry Pi 3 performance

Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:50 am

For $285 i would buy a 2nd hand (refurbished) Dell or HP laptop.
For that amount i would get a laptop with a Intel I5.
2 examples that could be bought in my country for that amount:
DELL Latitude E6410 - Intel CORE i5 - 4Gb
DELL Latitude E6220 - 2e Gen Intel CORE i3 - 4Gb

I would rather buy those for 285 dollar instead of a "slow" Pi3

jahboater
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Re: About Raspberry Pi 3 performance

Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:40 am

My Pi3 boots in 6.6 seconds to the desktop.
Full Raspbian, not overclocked.

Pi Zero boots in 20.0 seconds
Raspbian Lite, not overclocked.

Where did they get 50 seconds from? (wheezy?)

Above times from "systemd-analyze"
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MarkTF
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Re: About Raspberry Pi 3 performance

Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:50 pm

Is it at all surprising that a 2.85 GHz quad-core x86 SBC is significantly faster?

The cynic in me suspects this post is stealth marketing for the kick starter.

Merging an Intel processor with a fast microcontroller (84 MHz ARM M3) at a fairly modest price is an interesting product, but it seems like it fits a narrow market.
Last edited by MarkTF on Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

sergioaav
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Re: About Raspberry Pi 3 performance

Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:55 pm

Thanks for the answers so far.

I couldn't find a good used laptop for 1000,00 BRL ($285,00). At least, not in good conditions.

I thought about using the Pi because of the fun of building the machine myself. I have access to a 3d printer, so my plan was mount the hardware and print the case. I also have other ideas for using the Pi.
I found weird 50 seconds for booting. Also weird not being able to play a video on the internet without lag and the time to open a webpage. I thought that maybe they're were using a Pi with downclock to make their hardware look better.

jahboater
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Re: About Raspberry Pi 3 performance

Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:42 pm

sergioaav wrote:I found weird 50 seconds for booting. Also weird not being able to play a video on the internet without lag and the time to open a webpage. I thought that maybe they're were using a Pi with downclock to make their hardware look better.
I tried setting it to half speed (600MHz) and the boot time was 7.14 seconds. It may be they have a very slow SD card, or they are using an old version of Rasbian. The latest version "Jessie" with systemd is much faster, it aggressively runs the startup stuff in parallel.
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sergioaav
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Re: About Raspberry Pi 3 performance

Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:50 pm

Can you tell me about run times of some of the software that you use? Just so I can have an idea for what I want to run.

jahboater
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Re: About Raspberry Pi 3 performance

Mon Jun 06, 2016 3:04 pm

sergioaav wrote:Can you tell me about run times of some of the software that you use? Just so I can have an idea for what I want to run.
Except for programming I don't do much of what you want. A tiny compilation:-
[email protected]:~ $ time gcc hello.c -o hello

real 0m0.199s
user 0m0.130s
sys 0m0.050s
Obviously big builds take longer. Remember the Pi has four cores and so "make" can compile up to four programs at the same time.

Edits take no perceptible time (a few milliseconds to read in the file and start up).

All a bit meaningless without knowing what you want to do.
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ejolson
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Re: About Raspberry Pi 3 performance

Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:38 pm

sergioaav wrote:My curiosity about this is because I live in brazil and the pi here isn't cheap as it is in other countries. I estimated that my project is gonna cost something around 1000,00 in brazilian currency. So, I need to do a good choice of hardware.
The Pi was originally designed as a toy for children to learn programming. A large number of Pis are also being used by hobbyists for do-it-yourself home automation and robotics projects. Note, however that even the newest model Pi doesn't perform web browsing, word processing, video editing and spreadsheets as well as a 7 year old Intel compatible PC. It is also a bit difficult, though not impossible, to operate a Pi without access to a traditional computer for downloading the sdcard image and later backing it up.

If you know someone who is replacing a Windows XP or Visita computer based on a Pentium 4, Core Duo or Athlon CPU, maybe they will sell it to you for much less than the price of a new Pi 3. Installing Linux on such a computer will make it seem like new. Provided it has at least 2GB RAM and is not broken, the only significant disadvantage would then be the size and power consumption.

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Re: About Raspberry Pi 3 performance

Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:15 am

sergioaav wrote:...
I found weird 50 seconds for booting.
That is weird, it shouldn't take that long. They must have had a horribly slow SD card, or some kind of boot hang up (trouble connecting to a network with wait for network enabled?). Although in the video it looked like the Pi3 booted in 7.8 seconds.
sergioaav wrote:Also weird not being able to play a video on the internet without lag and the time to open a webpage. I thought that maybe they're were using a Pi with downclock to make their hardware look better.
That, however, is not so weird. The Pi3 is a mobile CPU, so it's less powerful than a desktop CPU. Also, Raspbian is not yet optimized for the Pi3. Previous Pi generations were 32-bit, so Raspbian is based on 32-bit architecture, while the Pi3 has a 64-bit processor. It would be faster with a 64-bit OS. And finally, the Broadcom GPU is a closed system, meaning the Raspberry Pi foundation does not have the documentation needed to write proper graphics drivers for it, so web based graphics are mostly processed by the ARM core and not the GPU.

There is an accelerated video player for Raspbian (based on Broadcom's VideoCore API), but it's mostly for stand-alone media playback. There has been some work on better integrating Omxplayer into Raspbian, but that integration is not included in Raspbian by default. Even something as simple as double-clicking on a video to play it with Omxplayer is something you have to set up yourself (really don't understand why they don't include that by default).

So what you are seeing in that video is an Intel based product running on a more optimized OS with proper graphics drivers, vs a 64-bit ARM based mobile processor running on a 32-bit OS without proper (OS integrated) graphics support.

The Pi was never designed to be a primary desktop/laptop computer (although you can get by with a Pi3, and some patience). It's an educational tool and tinkerer's toy. If you want something to use as your main system, I would also suggest you keep looking for a good used i3 or i5 laptop. Even a decent Netbook will run Linux better than a Pi (although the Pi will play HD video better).
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sergioaav
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Re: About Raspberry Pi 3 performance

Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:48 am

Thank you all for the answers and opinions.
HawaiianPi wrote: So what you are seeing in that video is an Intel based product running on a more optimized OS with proper graphics drivers, vs a 64-bit ARM based mobile processor running on a 32-bit OS without proper (OS integrated) graphics support.
I know the Udoo is a much different hardware than the Pi. I mostly used this video because of the run times of the Pi. I know the Udoo will be more powerfull than the Pi, but the performance that was showed for the Pi scared me a little bit.

Well, after all the answers, youtube videos, benchmark sites and posts, unfortunately the Pi will not fit my project.

From what I saw, I'm now thinking on Banana Pi M3, Odroid C2, Odroid XU4 or Cubieboard 5. The Odroid C2 is available here in Brazil for the same price of a Raspberry Pi 3. For the other ones, I have to import. The Cubieboard 5 is interesting for me because of the SATA connection.

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Re: About Raspberry Pi 3 performance

Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:00 am

HawaiianPi wrote: That, however, is not so weird. The Pi3 is a mobile CPU, so it's less powerful than a desktop CPU. Also, Raspbian is not yet optimized for the Pi3. Previous Pi generations were 32-bit, so Raspbian is based on 32-bit architecture, while the Pi3 has a 64-bit processor. It would be faster with a 64-bit OS. And finally, the Broadcom GPU is a closed system, meaning the Raspberry Pi foundation does not have the documentation needed to write proper graphics drivers for it, so web based graphics are mostly processed by the ARM core and not the GPU.

There is an accelerated video player for Raspbian (based on Broadcom's VideoCore API), but it's mostly for stand-alone media playback. There has been some work on better integrating Omxplayer into Raspbian, but that integration is not included in Raspbian by default. Even something as simple as double-clicking on a video to play it with Omxplayer is something you have to set up yourself (really don't understand why they don't include that by default).
Not quite the case. The RPF does have all the GPU documentation (and employs quite a few of the people who designed the GPU), and the guy writing the new 3D drivers works for Broadcom anyway, so has access to everything. There are also standard drivers for all the HW acceleration, OpenMAX, OpenGLES, OpenVG etc. So you can have access to all that stuff.

Interestingly, web pages are VERY difficult to accelerate, even desktops don't do a lot of HW acceleration of that. They are simply fast enough to do most of the work on the processor, leaving very little for HW acceleration to do.

Jury is out on how much faster going to a 64bit Linux would make the Pi3. I suspect not a huge amount. 10% faster maybe?
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Re: About Raspberry Pi 3 performance

Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:14 am

sergioaav wrote:From what I saw, I'm now thinking on Banana Pi M3, Odroid C2, Odroid XU4 or Cubieboard 5. The Odroid C2 is available here in Brazil for the same price of a Raspberry Pi 3. For the other ones, I have to import. The Cubieboard 5 is interesting for me because of the SATA connection.
There is a phrase in English, "out of the frying pan and into the fire." This basically means there is nothing so bad that it can't be made worse. Given the alternatives, your original idea of a Pi 3 might be the best option.

While the boards you mention each have 2GB RAM, the up-to-date kernel and software of the Pi 3 may be more important, especially when combined with the helpful user community.

Here are a few observations: The Odroid models have ARMv8 cores similar to the Pi 3 but include heatsinks. The Cubieboard 5 and Banana Pi M3 have slower ARMv7 cores. Neither include heatsinks. The built-in SATA on the Cubieboard 5 is no different than connecting an external USB drive to any of the other boards.

sergioaav
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Re: About Raspberry Pi 3 performance

Fri Jun 10, 2016 1:56 am

ejolson wrote: While the boards you mention each have 2GB RAM, the up-to-date kernel and software of the Pi 3 may be more important, especially when combined with the helpful user community.

Here are a few observations: The Odroid models have ARMv8 cores similar to the Pi 3 but include heatsinks. The Cubieboard 5 and Banana Pi M3 have slower ARMv7 cores. Neither include heatsinks. The built-in SATA on the Cubieboard 5 is no different than connecting an external USB drive to any of the other boards.
Yes, one downside of the boards I've mentioned is the community and help to develop projects.
I'm not quite sure if the up-to-date kernel and software of the Pi 3 results in better performance. On the benchmarks that I saw the Pi 3 was significantly slower than Banana Pi 3, Odroid C2 and Odroid XU4. One of the benchmarks I saw is this: https://www.loverpi.com/blogs/news/9525 ... s-for-sbcs
It's hard to choose a hardware based just on benchmarks, videos and opinions. If I could, I would buy a Pi 3 and test it to prove what I've seen and if it fits my idea. Unfortunately, I can't.

ejolson
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Re: About Raspberry Pi 3 performance

Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:29 am

sergioaav wrote:benchmarks I saw is this: https://www.loverpi.com/blogs/news/9525 ... s-for-sbcs
Those results are difficult to interpret. Why is the Banana Pi M3 the fastest with blowfish while slowest with the Poison pressure solver?

The implication of the article is that stock configurations and settings were tested. Running benchmarks on the Pi 3 without a heatsink can result in a thermal throttling from 1200mhz to 600mhz that reduces performance by a factor of two. Another issue is that by default the Raspbian C/C++ compilers produce code that is backwards compatible with the original Raspberry Pi CPU. Quoting from the article, "Raspberry Pi 3 is handy-capped by Raspbian's ARMv6 instruction set and would perform better using ARMv8 instuction set." I've seen amost 4 times performance increase by using better compiler settings just for a Pi 2B.

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