Pithagoros
Posts: 578
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:16 pm

More Zeros Wednesday

Mon May 23, 2016 6:32 pm

Pihut just tweeted, more Zeros on Wednesday 9AM.
Looks like they are on stream now.

https://twitter.com/ThePiHut/status/734813189368651777

geoffr
Posts: 89
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:25 am
Location: Melbourne, VIC

Re: More Zeros Wednesday

Mon May 23, 2016 10:45 pm

Pithagoros wrote:Pihut just tweeted, more Zeros on Wednesday 9AM.
Looks like they are on stream now.

https://twitter.com/ThePiHut/status/734813189368651777
That means the next stock will be available before the last lot of deliveries is completed. :lol:

I think this will start to break the back of the availability issues.

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 12990
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: More Zeros Wednesday

Tue May 24, 2016 12:21 am

geoffr wrote:
Pithagoros wrote:Pihut just tweeted, more Zeros on Wednesday 9AM.
Looks like they are on stream now.

https://twitter.com/ThePiHut/status/734813189368651777
That means the next stock will be available before the last lot of deliveries is completed. :lol:

I think this will start to break the back of the availability issues.
I got the one I ordered last week today. As for the "9AM", that's 1AM for me. I'll have to see what they have left about 5 hours later. On the other hand, Pimoroni still has some kits left from last week.

stderr
Posts: 2178
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:29 pm

Re: More Zeros Wednesday

Tue May 24, 2016 2:13 am

W. H. Heydt wrote: On the other hand, Pimoroni still has some kits left from last week.
If more zeros keep coming in and more and more zero kits keep sitting in boxes on the shelf, will this mean that a greater allotment of zeros will go to those who just want to get their zeros?

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 12990
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: More Zeros Wednesday

Tue May 24, 2016 2:37 am

stderr wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote: On the other hand, Pimoroni still has some kits left from last week.
If more zeros keep coming in and more and more zero kits keep sitting in boxes on the shelf, will this mean that a greater allotment of zeros will go to those who just want to get their zeros?
One might hope so. One might hope that the vendors will allocate more as bare boards and fewer as kits as the preferences of their customers points in that direction.

User avatar
mikronauts
Posts: 2803
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:28 pm
Contact: Website

Re: More Zeros Wednesday

Tue May 24, 2016 3:17 am

That won't happen until people stop buying the kits.
W. H. Heydt wrote: One might hope so. One might hope that the vendors will allocate more as bare boards and fewer as kits as the preferences of their customers points in that direction.
http://Mikronauts.com - home of EZasPi, RoboPi, Pi Rtc Dio and Pi Jumper @Mikronauts on Twitter
Advanced Robotics, I/O expansion and prototyping boards for the Raspberry Pi

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 12990
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: More Zeros Wednesday

Tue May 24, 2016 3:52 am

mikronauts wrote:That won't happen until people stop buying the kits.
W. H. Heydt wrote: One might hope so. One might hope that the vendors will allocate more as bare boards and fewer as kits as the preferences of their customers points in that direction.
One can observe that the bare boards sell out first, and the kits sell out--generally--in order of increasing cost (an exception to that is the current Pimoroni status where the most expensive kit is out of stock, but the second most expensive on isn't). So...what happens when some kits start staying in stock from one shipment to the next? Will the companies continue to make up kits in the same proportions they have been? Or will they preferentially stock the bare boards (that sell out first) and the kits that go the quickest? The former approach will--over time--result in a large unsold inventory of the more expensive kits. The later approach will move stock faster, even if it is somewhat less profitable stock. Stock that sticks around ties up capital and, at least in some places, is subject to inventory taxes. Which is to say, unsold stock is a drag on a business.

User avatar
mikronauts
Posts: 2803
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:28 pm
Contact: Website

Re: More Zeros Wednesday

Tue May 24, 2016 4:41 am

I think that some bundles will make sense for a while - to wit:

- Pi Zero
- new camera cable
- new 8Mpix camera

I think Adafruit was on the right track with this bundle, where they went wrong is adding an extra $5USD as the bundle should be around $35USD - but I am sure plenty of people will pay the $40 as it is still FAR more reasonable than Ebay scalpers.

I have connectors / adapters / etc coming out of the ying yang, but I would pick up two such bundles pretty much immediately.

Mind you, longer term, I want to buy Zero's in 20 / 50 / 100 piece bundles and get cheaper (~$1) cables that are sure to pop up soon.

The Pi Zero is nearly ideal for quite a few of my uses.
http://Mikronauts.com - home of EZasPi, RoboPi, Pi Rtc Dio and Pi Jumper @Mikronauts on Twitter
Advanced Robotics, I/O expansion and prototyping boards for the Raspberry Pi

Thun
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: More Zeros Wednesday

Tue May 24, 2016 7:42 am

W. H. Heydt wrote: One can observe that the bare boards sell out first, and the kits sell out--generally--in order of increasing cost (an exception to that is the current Pimoroni status where the most expensive kit is out of stock, but the second most expensive on isn't).
Nope. Look at details, there are 3 suboptions. In fact only most expensive is in stock for 30£

fanoush
Posts: 575
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:37 pm

Re: More Zeros Wednesday

Tue May 24, 2016 8:13 am

mikronauts wrote: Mind you, longer term, I want to buy Zero's in 20 / 50 / 100 piece bundles and get cheaper (~$1) cables that are sure to pop up soon.
The Pi Zero is nearly ideal for quite a few of my uses.
Just for fun I ordered two CHIPs yesterday, they should ship in June so I wonder if they arrive faster than my possible future order of multiple Zeros :-)
It was $24.22 USD including shipping (2x$9+$6.22). Two Zeros would be currently 16GBP~=$23.23 for me.
CHIP is different from Zero (no hdmi but wi-fi, bt, lipo charger+power management chip) so I guess it is useful to have both :-)

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 12990
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: More Zeros Wednesday

Tue May 24, 2016 2:31 pm

mikronauts wrote:I think that some bundles will make sense for a while - to wit:

- Pi Zero
- new camera cable
- new 8Mpix camera

I think Adafruit was on the right track with this bundle, where they went wrong is adding an extra $5USD as the bundle should be around $35USD - but I am sure plenty of people will pay the $40 as it is still FAR more reasonable than Ebay scalpers.

I have connectors / adapters / etc coming out of the ying yang, but I would pick up two such bundles pretty much immediately.

Mind you, longer term, I want to buy Zero's in 20 / 50 / 100 piece bundles and get cheaper (~$1) cables that are sure to pop up soon.

The Pi Zero is nearly ideal for quite a few of my uses.
Look at the individual item prices. Adafruit sells the Pi Zero (when they have them) for $5 (probably by agreement with the RPT), but the new cable is $5.95 and the new camera is $29.95. So, from that perspective, they're selling $40.90 worth of individual items for $39.95. As packages, particular from resellers, that's actually pretty reasonable.

It's the reseller issue.

User avatar
mikronauts
Posts: 2803
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:28 pm
Contact: Website

Re: More Zeros Wednesday

Tue May 24, 2016 3:18 pm

I thought the new cable was $5, and the new camera $25, plus $5 for the Pi = $35

Mind you, for me, at two units it does not matter - it they have stock, for the initial two units I'd pay the extra $5.

For larger volumes, I am biding my time until I can buy Zero's bulk.
W. H. Heydt wrote: Look at the individual item prices. Adafruit sells the Pi Zero (when they have them) for $5 (probably by agreement with the RPT), but the new cable is $5.95 and the new camera is $29.95. So, from that perspective, they're selling $40.90 worth of individual items for $39.95. As packages, particular from resellers, that's actually pretty reasonable.

It's the reseller issue.
http://Mikronauts.com - home of EZasPi, RoboPi, Pi Rtc Dio and Pi Jumper @Mikronauts on Twitter
Advanced Robotics, I/O expansion and prototyping boards for the Raspberry Pi

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 12990
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: More Zeros Wednesday

Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 pm

mikronauts wrote:I thought the new cable was $5, and the new camera $25, plus $5 for the Pi = $35

Mind you, for me, at two units it does not matter - it they have stock, for the initial two units I'd pay the extra $5.

For larger volumes, I am biding my time until I can buy Zero's bulk.
W. H. Heydt wrote: Look at the individual item prices. Adafruit sells the Pi Zero (when they have them) for $5 (probably by agreement with the RPT), but the new cable is $5.95 and the new camera is $29.95. So, from that perspective, they're selling $40.90 worth of individual items for $39.95. As packages, particular from resellers, that's actually pretty reasonable.

It's the reseller issue.
Correct on the prices, but... Adafruit is not a direct licnsee for any RPT/RPF products except the Pi Zero. Thus, they aren't contractually bound by the official prices and bump them up a bit. They probably have to buy their other Pis. cables, displays, etc. from RS or Farnell. For example, they list the Pi3B at $39.95 instead of $35 as you'd find it at MCM, Newark or Allied.

User avatar
mikronauts
Posts: 2803
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:28 pm
Contact: Website

Re: More Zeros Wednesday

Tue May 24, 2016 4:20 pm

Makes (sad) sense.

Btw, the only reason Mikronauts does not carry & resell Pi products is that I'd lose money on every sale, so I totally understand Adafruits position.
W. H. Heydt wrote:
mikronauts wrote: Correct on the prices, but... Adafruit is not a direct licnsee for any RPT/RPF products except the Pi Zero. Thus, they aren't contractually bound by the official prices and bump them up a bit. They probably have to buy their other Pis. cables, displays, etc. from RS or Farnell. For example, they list the Pi3B at $39.95 instead of $35 as you'd find it at MCM, Newark or Allied.
http://Mikronauts.com - home of EZasPi, RoboPi, Pi Rtc Dio and Pi Jumper @Mikronauts on Twitter
Advanced Robotics, I/O expansion and prototyping boards for the Raspberry Pi

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 12990
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: More Zeros Wednesday

Tue May 24, 2016 7:57 pm

mikronauts wrote:Makes (sad) sense.

Btw, the only reason Mikronauts does not carry & resell Pi products is that I'd lose money on every sale, so I totally understand Adafruits position.
W. H. Heydt wrote: Correct on the prices, but... Adafruit is not a direct licnsee for any RPT/RPF products except the Pi Zero. Thus, they aren't contractually bound by the official prices and bump them up a bit. They probably have to buy their other Pis. cables, displays, etc. from RS or Farnell. For example, they list the Pi3B at $39.95 instead of $35 as you'd find it at MCM, Newark or Allied.
[/quote]
Agreed. Adafruit's markup isn't excessive, but--generally speaking--I go to the licensee outlets to get actual Pi products and avoid that markup. That is not to fault Adafruit for doing so. I buy other things from them. They've been my primary source for PSUs for Pis, though MCM seems to have caught on and has a good price on 5.25v 2.4A PSUs, making those suitable for Pi3Bs, plus they discount the price if you buy 10 at a time.

The only thing I've complained about Adafruit over is the other bundles for the Pi Zero, which I think are overpriced. The Pi Zero, cable and camera bundle is actually pretty reasonable.

geoffr
Posts: 89
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:25 am
Location: Melbourne, VIC

Re: More Zeros Wednesday

Wed May 25, 2016 12:49 am

mikronauts wrote:Makes (sad) sense.

Btw, the only reason Mikronauts does not carry & resell Pi products is that I'd lose money on every sale, so I totally understand Adafruits position.
W. H. Heydt wrote:
mikronauts wrote: Correct on the prices, but... Adafruit is not a direct licnsee for any RPT/RPF products except the Pi Zero. Thus, they aren't contractually bound by the official prices and bump them up a bit. They probably have to buy their other Pis. cables, displays, etc. from RS or Farnell. For example, they list the Pi3B at $39.95 instead of $35 as you'd find it at MCM, Newark or Allied.
I think this is a challenging issue, which is made more difficult by the Pi Zero. Any reseller will have fixed costs per order related to picking, packing, billing and shipping the order. - It doesn't matter how big or small the order is, the costs of these (mainly labour/logistical) items are fairly fixed. As the unit price of the items sold goes down, it doesn't matter what your margin percentage is, your nominal gross margin is becoming minuscule. I suspect it is only really the likes of the Pi Hut, who are operating on an industrial scale who can get those fixed costs down through the sheer volume of orders they process.

For this reason, I can absolutely understand why resellers would want to sell Pi Zero kits. That gives a better guarantee of the nominal margin per order.

To give some perspective - on a GBP 4.00 Pi Zero, before VAT the seller is taking GBP 3.20. If you assumed a gross margin of 30% (total speculation) that leaves 96p to cover the cost of processing an order, rents, utility bills, wages, all other overheads, and hopefully some income - if you are lucky! (This all assumes the costs of packaging material and shipping are on top of this.)

That should give some perspective on how tough it is to make money selling Pi Zeros. I'm sure sellers would love to be able to sell in bulk - that would increase the nominal margin per order at least. Basically, the cost to process an order for 5 Pi Zeros will be pretty much the same as the cost to process an order for one. At a GP of 30% that means having nearly GBP 5 to play with to cover the cost of processing the order instead of less than GBP 1.00. Once sellers are able to sell more than one per order, I would be entirely in favour of a pricing model where the unit price is higher at lower quantities - otherwise it is just too hard to make a profit.

That said, it looks like The Pi Hut, Pimoroni and Adafruit have done a sterling job so far. (I have no ability to comment about Microcenter, since it would be necessary to walk into one of their stores to really be able to comment.)

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 12990
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: More Zeros Wednesday

Wed May 25, 2016 1:55 am

geoffr wrote:I think this is a challenging issue, which is made more difficult by the Pi Zero. Any reseller will have fixed costs per order related to picking, packing, billing and shipping the order. - It doesn't matter how big or small the order is, the costs of these (mainly labour/logistical) items are fairly fixed. As the unit price of the items sold goes down, it doesn't matter what your margin percentage is, your nominal gross margin is becoming minuscule. I suspect it is only really the likes of the Pi Hut, who are operating on an industrial scale who can get those fixed costs down through the sheer volume of orders they process.

For this reason, I can absolutely understand why resellers would want to sell Pi Zero kits. That gives a better guarantee of the nominal margin per order.

To give some perspective - on a GBP 4.00 Pi Zero, before VAT the seller is taking GBP 3.20. If you assumed a gross margin of 30% (total speculation) that leaves 96p to cover the cost of processing an order, rents, utility bills, wages, all other overheads, and hopefully some income - if you are lucky! (This all assumes the costs of packaging material and shipping are on top of this.)

That should give some perspective on how tough it is to make money selling Pi Zeros. I'm sure sellers would love to be able to sell in bulk - that would increase the nominal margin per order at least. Basically, the cost to process an order for 5 Pi Zeros will be pretty much the same as the cost to process an order for one. At a GP of 30% that means having nearly GBP 5 to play with to cover the cost of processing the order instead of less than GBP 1.00. Once sellers are able to sell more than one per order, I would be entirely in favour of a pricing model where the unit price is higher at lower quantities - otherwise it is just too hard to make a profit.

That said, it looks like The Pi Hut, Pimoroni and Adafruit have done a sterling job so far. (I have no ability to comment about Microcenter, since it would be necessary to walk into one of their stores to really be able to comment.)
I agree with most of your analysis. The usual "work around" for low (unit) margin items is to try to find a way to increase the volume to compensate. Unfortunately, that's not possible right now. It is, however, behind the idea of allowing the retailers to sell "six packs" or "ten packs" of Pi Zeros. That way, the retailer is handling one item (package), and while the profit on a single Pi Zero is so low that overhead costs are a real problem, there should be a better profit situation with a multi-Pi Zero package.

And...as you note...it is quite understandable why the retailers prefer kits. So long as the kits sell out between shipments, they'll continue to put as many Pi Zeros into kits as they can. At the same time, some us are stubborn enough not to buy kits and if bare boards aren't available, we don't buy. That said, Adafruit had some Pi Zeros in today. I managed to order one by adding it to my "cart" which already had other items in it. I probably would have ordered those other items eventually, but it was the presence of bare board Pi Zeros that caused me to "pull the trigger" on the order. As I decide to order other items from Adafruit, I will probably repeat that process. So, in one sense, it is likely that I am actually delaying some purchases in order to spread the shipping cost of a Pi Zero over other items. I'm not sure that works in a way Adafruit would appreciate.

Pithagoros
Posts: 578
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:16 pm

Re: More Zeros Wednesday

Wed May 25, 2016 4:43 am

I believe that, for the resellers involved, there is huge value in selling Zeros and that value is not just simple margin of profit, or even the ability to sell other items and kit bundles on the back of zero sales.

It will be highly effective as an indirect marketing tool and will establish those resellers as leading names in this marketplace. This is the kind of brand building that would normally cost a shedload of money, so getting a small profit out of it is a bonus.

This effect will last as long as there remains a feeding frenzy for Zeros, but there is much to be gained in the meantime. Just looking at the costs and margin is too simplistic.

geoffr
Posts: 89
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:25 am
Location: Melbourne, VIC

Re: More Zeros Wednesday

Wed May 25, 2016 6:28 am

Pithagoros wrote:I believe that, for the resellers involved, there is huge value in selling Zeros and that value is not just simple margin of profit, or even the ability to sell other items and kit bundles on the back of zero sales.

It will be highly effective as an indirect marketing tool and will establish those resellers as leading names in this marketplace. This is the kind of brand building that would normally cost a shedload of money, so getting a small profit out of it is a bonus.

This effect will last as long as there remains a feeding frenzy for Zeros, but there is much to be gained in the meantime. Just looking at the costs and margin is too simplistic.
You definitely have a point here. I used to only buy from Element14 or RS before. You can't beat RS's free shipping on all online orders (especially when buying 5 small capacitors :D ), but the Pi Zero has put The Pi Hut and Pimoroni on the map for me, where I would never have even considered them before.
The Pi Hut and Pimoroni will be the only ones who what what the real value of this marketing is. At any rate, in my last order, the Pi Zero I ordered represented a small percentage of the overall order. I hope the marketing value is paying off.

User avatar
Cancelor
Posts: 777
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:09 pm
Location: UK

Re: More Zeros Wednesday

Wed May 25, 2016 7:30 am

mikronauts wrote:I thought the new cable was $5, and the new camera $25, plus $5 for the Pi = $35

Mind you, for me, at two units it does not matter - it they have stock, for the initial two units I'd pay the extra $5.

For larger volumes, I am biding my time until I can buy Zero's bulk.
W. H. Heydt wrote: Look at the individual item prices. Adafruit sells the Pi Zero (when they have them) for $5 (probably by agreement with the RPT), but the new cable is $5.95 and the new camera is $29.95. So, from that perspective, they're selling $40.90 worth of individual items for $39.95. As packages, particular from resellers, that's actually pretty reasonable.

It's the reseller issue.
I think you are right. So far we have only seen the tip of the iceberg in terms of what people want to buy.
Can't find the thread you want? Try googling : YourSearchHere site:raspberrypi.org

User avatar
Gavinmc42
Posts: 4553
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:31 am

Re: More Zeros Wednesday

Wed May 25, 2016 7:55 am

Thanks guys, I did not know Adafruit was selling a Zero/cable/camera package.
If I did not already have a bunch of cameras that would be my preferred package.
Apart from 6 or 10 packs :D
But now out of stock :(
Wonder if they will have a Noir option? Have not got 8Mp Noir's yet.

Yep handling charges can be a pain, someone has to pick, pack and ship the Zero.
No margin in doing it for one Zero, would actually send them broke.
I'm dancing on Rainbows.
Raspberries are not Apples or Oranges

Pithagoros
Posts: 578
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:16 pm

Re: More Zeros Wednesday

Wed May 25, 2016 8:07 am

Both UK resellers are back in stock this morning with zeros, as from 9AM.

As they both seem to work in sync, perhaps Adafruit will also have some later when EST catches up.

User avatar
Gavinmc42
Posts: 4553
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:31 am

Re: More Zeros Wednesday

Wed May 25, 2016 9:00 am

New Zero package suggestions?

Zero + cable + camera + tiny LCD - DIY cameras
Zero + cable + camera + motor driver - DIY robotics
I'm dancing on Rainbows.
Raspberries are not Apples or Oranges

blaablaaguy
Posts: 623
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2015 3:26 pm

Re: More Zeros Wednesday

Wed May 25, 2016 9:58 am

There still in stock at pimoroni.
This signature intentionally left blank.

BMS Doug
Posts: 3823
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:42 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: More Zeros Wednesday

Wed May 25, 2016 10:51 am

Its a sad statement on my love of Pi that I decided to buy a new Pi Zero for soldering a header too rather than solder a header onto one of my (2) original version zeros (I just want to keep them pristine as they aren't available anymore).

Visited PiHut, by the time I had added a camera adapter the zero was out of stock. Bought it from Pimoroni instead (and purchased it as soon as it was in my basket to avoid missing it).
Doug.
Building Management Systems Engineer.

Return to “General discussion”