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Re: Raspberry Pi 'community'

Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 5:48 pm
by joan
Burngate wrote:
liz wrote:... and remember that if you're finding someone particularly unbearable, there's always the ignore button.
I wonder if there's any way to find out how many people are ignoring me
I'm not.

This may take some time.

Re: Raspberry Pi 'community'

Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 6:08 pm
by blaablaaguy
Burngate wrote:
liz wrote:... and remember that if you're finding someone particularly unbearable, there's always the ignore button.
I wonder if there's any way to find out how many people are ignoring me
Huh? :? Did someone say something?

Re: Raspberry Pi 'community'

Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 6:09 pm
by Heater
Liz,
...we're tolerant of non-standard neurologies around here...
That's good to hear. The few neurons I have left can hardly find each other any more.

Re: Raspberry Pi 'community'

Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 6:15 pm
by fruitoftheloom
liz wrote:
Nickcn wrote:When you have multiple threads in the Pi forum to the effect of...
You're talking about one user there - and that user's not around any more, because they didn't respond well to being asked to tone it down and continued with the same (and worse) behaviour. We *do* moderate carefully; I'd challenge you to find anything else at all similar here. (That user actually *is* on the autistic spectrum - we did some checking, and we're tolerant of non-standard neurologies around here - but the user was also trolling, which we don't tolerate.)
Whilst I appreciate you as Mods have a tough job, would it not be better to just remove posts or whole threads rather than leaving them up as bad examples ?

......if the poster does have ""Challenges"" then for a Mod to actually state that that is the case, then maybe assumptions would not be made ??

Re: Raspberry Pi 'community'

Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 6:47 pm
by JumpZero
Douglas6 wrote: I can't remember hearing about a great Pi application here. Maybe it's just me.
I believe it's just you.
I open new post to ask questions very rarely here, but I search and find answers nearly every day. The community is very active and with a high technical level. It's impressive.
--
Jmp0

Re: Raspberry Pi 'community'

Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 7:31 pm
by liz
Fruit - half of that user's posts were about his autism. And as for other users "trying to keep him in check", Nick, that is absolutely NOT the job of other users, and it's a swift way to arguments and conflict that none of us wants to see here. It's the job of the mods to deal with this stuff, and it's what the report button is for.

I guess I should perhaps explain some of what you folk don't see about the mod process. If a post is reported, we mods ALWAYS look at it as soon as we can, and we talk privately among ourselves about what to do about it. Sometimes we're unanimous on how to approach something, sometimes we have a debate about it. Often a lot of you will report the same post, which is very helpful to us. We have these conversations several times every day (and a lot of us have become good friends doing this job).

Very, very rarely, behaviour is egregious enough to result in an instant and permanent ban (that happens perhaps twice a year). But usually what happens is that the user is sent a polite warning, explaining what's gone wrong, and asking them to stop doing whatever's causing the problems.

Most people who do something that warrants a report aren't doing something that would warrant an instant ban; or we might be giving them the benefit of the doubt because what we're seeing is out of character, someone is winding them up, or there's something else we think might be going on. Many people, having been sent a warning, are perfectly nice about it, edit their posts or explain that they were having a crappy day or on the end of a misunderstanding. And they don't usually do it again. But some users double down - Rive had received warnings which he didn't respond to for some other stuff - which you won't have seen, of course. And his responses to EihmGhey (I may be misspelling that), which I am hoping most of you did not see, because I deleted them, were appalling. They were incredibly offensive to other people who have autism spectrum disorder - and I mean INCREDIBLY offensive. We felt we didn't have any choice but to push the button.

I do not delete content from here lightly. We consider this forum a matter of record. No kids are going to be hurt, injured or otherwise broken by someone saying they're looking for a gay partner, although it is inappropriate for this forum, so I will not be deleting that post. EihmGhey was told that his post wasn't appropriate here, and the thread was closed, which I think is sufficient. He was also told that many of his posts had been resulting in reports; I explained what had led to those reports. He, like Rive, doubled down, and started trolling (hard) on getting a friendly warning. So both of them are now banned, and we won't be considering allowing them back in: once you're banned, you're banned. It's about keeping the forums the sort of place you and I would want to visit.

A word on the moderators. They do a hard job very well. Along with keeping an eye on the tone and civility of things in general, we also moderate every single first post that's made to this forum; on a quiet day there are over two hundred things for the mods to do (spam to filter, spammers to block - that's why you never see any spam here - reports to evaluate, posts to move out of incorrect forums etc. etc.); alongside those 200-odd tasks - often considerably more - we also spend a long time looking over the forums and talking to each other about why we're making the decisions we're making every day. Some days we'll find ourselves with well over a thousand actions. Most days, three or four of us are active. The vast majority of the mods - certainly the most active mods - are volunteers; I am the Foundation mod who is most active behind the scenes here, but many of my Cambridge colleagues also pitch in. So it's a lot of work for the moderators, and I am really grateful to them for the incredibly hard work and long hours they put in. I hope you are too. Their work makes this place what it is.

Re: Raspberry Pi 'community'

Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 7:42 pm
by Heater
We very much appreciate all the hard work Liz, and everyone involved.

Even if I have been subject to a sever reprimand myself. :)

Re: Raspberry Pi 'community'

Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 7:44 pm
by liz
Ah, but you've been a (very, very helpful) pussycat, and a great member of the community ever since - so you kind of prove that the system works, I'd say!

Re: Raspberry Pi 'community'

Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 7:49 pm
by jdb
Liz is accurate in her description of the "mod" process. When a user makes constructive posts and then goes off on a tangent, it's a lot harder to hand out a permaban simply because of a one-off transgression. Persistent baiting/trolling/negative behaviour towards other users, on the other hand, is grounds for banhammer application.

The yardstick we use is "don't post things on the forum that you'd feel uncomfortable saying to the person in their own living room IRL", which is a good guide for judging behaviour. Then there's frequently a corollary to that which is also applied - "would you invite this person to a dinner party ten times in a row given their post history" - a more long-term assessment of behaviour and whether it's for the purpose of riling or inflaming opinions on a subject.

The point about the forum being a repository of record: by the time the mods have responded to a report on a post, probably 200 people have seen it. Deletion is ineffective in such cases, other than us nuking the entire thread. This is why locks and in-post edits for profanity/links to sites with illegal connotations are preferred rather than squashing the whole discussion.

Rarely, we ban users with established contributions for a short amount of time to "cool down". The effect is usually positive - a week's prohibition mediates less inflammatory or heat-of-the-moment posts in future.

Re: Raspberry Pi 'community'

Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 7:55 pm
by boyoh
The innovation of basic circuit building ,and understanding is loosing favor
It is all pre-packs and plug in circuit boards now," Soldering Irons what are they"
Test benches nearly obsolete I'm speaking from experience having worked as
a technician for for many years, Seeing both sides , before the chip and and after
the chip. All very good for production lines. I've been retired 20 yrs, but still miss
the buzz of fault finding

If you are interested in the Pi, it is worthwhile learning basic electronics.

Re: Raspberry Pi 'community'

Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 8:03 pm
by W. H. Heydt
liz wrote:Ipsw makes a very important point - you can't necessarily see them, because on the internet everybody looks the same, but there are a lot of kids here. (It's one of the reasons we moderate quite strictly; it's important to us that these forums are a safe and useful place for kids to come, and that they don't put them off.)
The old (going back to when usenet dominated the Internet) was: On the Internet, no one knows you're a dog. Plenty of cartoons related to that, including--IIRC--a "Far Side" one.

Re: Raspberry Pi 'community'

Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 8:07 pm
by Heater
@Liz,
Ah, but you've been a (very, very helpful) pussycat, and a great member of the community ever since - so you kind of prove that the system works, I'd say!
Oh. But Liz, wasn't I little bit of a great member before?

@boyoh,

Quite so, bring back the soldering iron I say. The magic way solder flows is an experience everyone should have.

There seems to be a problem now a days that almost anything interesting one might do in school is now deemed too dangerous.
Back in my day we we casting molten aluminium in school aged 14. Can't imagine that happening now a days.

Re: Raspberry Pi 'community'

Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 8:21 pm
by W. H. Heydt
I want to add an\ appreciative (redundant) comment in support of all the hard work Liz and her moderators do.

I cut my teeth by writing for a gaming related APA (Alarums & Excursions) and from there, commenting on numerous usenet groups, mostly in the SF and Sci areas, but including probably the wildest and most viscous unmoderated one of all...talk.origins. Those who have only used closely moderated forums, like this one, have no idea how rough things can get.

There is one really valuable thing I learned from my APA days. When it takes a month for each reply, you tend to consider what you're saying (both for being understandable AND for which buttons it may push) rather carefully. As for my posts here...mellowing (in some ways...and not in others) with age has probably benefited me.

Re: Raspberry Pi 'community'

Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 8:57 pm
by jbeale
RPi forums seem fine to me, and the mods do an impressive job considering the sheer size of the task. Meanwhile the hardware just keeps getting better. Not specific to Pi but I recently got myself a few "PS3 Eye" webcam/4-channel mic items (how can they cost only $5 !?) and pleased to see that both sound and video just works on the Pi, whereas on Windows 7 the video driver is only available as pay-ware. If I manage to do something cool with it, I'll make a post about it. :-)

Re: Raspberry Pi 'community'

Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 9:19 pm
by Tzarls
jbeale wrote:RPi forums seem fine to me, and the mods do an impressive job considering the sheer size of the task. Meanwhile the hardware just keeps getting better. Not specific to Pi but I recently got myself a few "PS3 Eye" webcam/4-channel mic items (how can they cost only $5 !?) and pleased to see that both sound and video just works on the Pi, whereas on Windows 7 the video driver is only available as pay-ware. If I manage to do something cool with it, I'll make a post about it. :-)

Totally OT, I know, but where did you find that??????

On the other hand, this is the community in action - someone reports a good thing (a new feature, interesting software/library/information) and everyone else benefits from that report. I wouldn't worry about it dying any soon.

Re: Raspberry Pi 'community'

Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 9:27 pm
by stderr
Tzarls wrote:Totally OT, I know, but where did you find that??????
I would say that you'd find it too if you selected PS3 Eye and searched for it on google or even startpage: http://www.amazon.com/Sony-PlayStation- ... B0072I2240

Re: Raspberry Pi 'community'

Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 10:04 pm
by Tzarls
Should have known... For one moment I forgot how far I am from the "real" world... A few months ago I saw some of those selling locally for about 4 times that price, that's why I got so excited.... Buy then 5$ plush shipping would add to what that guy was asking.

Re: Raspberry Pi 'community'

Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 1:09 am
by broe23
Burngate wrote:
liz wrote:... and remember that if you're finding someone particularly unbearable, there's always the ignore button.
I wonder if there's any way to find out how many people are ignoring me
On one forum I have a huge list of banned users who tend to troll every post that gets put up, regardless what it is about. I got tired of them acting like adult children and in turn they still troll every post that I put up. That is when Mod's are not doing their job and they purposely make the ignore a one way mirror, so that those who misbehave can continue their attacks.

The whole Hacker idea has become something that it was not back in the 70's during the Home Brew days. There were a lot like myself who were pre-teens, writing Assembly code and writing programs that you only see those who are in their 20's and 30's write very sloppy these days. With Python and working in Linux, you see a lot of the rebirth of the movement and now with the Pi, you are seeing once again the younger generation doing what those of us that were their age at one time.

As adults, we should be helping them troubleshoot their programs if they ask for assistance, instead of shoving them off to some obscure link that all they will find is attacks telling them RTFM.

I do not mind helping others with hardware or networking issues. That is something I have gotten really good at over 38 years in doing. Since I reignited my fire for wanting to create and build with the Pi platform, I am finding that I am searching elsewhere for information that is incomplete or end up giving up.

Printed and Electronic magazines are good. They are nothing like Byte and especially Creative Computing.

Re: Raspberry Pi 'community'

Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 1:15 am
by broe23
fruitoftheloom wrote:
liz wrote:
Nickcn wrote:When you have multiple threads in the Pi forum to the effect of...
You're talking about one user there - and that user's not around any more, because they didn't respond well to being asked to tone it down and continued with the same (and worse) behaviour. We *do* moderate carefully; I'd challenge you to find anything else at all similar here. (That user actually *is* on the autistic spectrum - we did some checking, and we're tolerant of non-standard neurologies around here - but the user was also trolling, which we don't tolerate.)
Whilst I appreciate you as Mods have a tough job, would it not be better to just remove posts or whole threads rather than leaving them up as bad examples ?

......if the poster does have ""Challenges"" then for a Mod to actually state that that is the case, then maybe assumptions would not be made ??
It is easier to just "Jail" the whole topic, than having the mods go through and pick through every post to delete those that are going back and forth as if they are two kids fighting over the last Ice Cream Bar.

Arguments have to be nipped in the bud at the beginning. In turn we are all adults and should be acting in a mature manner. As Liz stated, there are a lot of younger kids coming on here to look for help and info on Robotics and Micro-controller projects.

Those of us in our 40's and 50's knew how it was when we were that age and we had adults who worked with C, Assembly, Fortran and Cobol, who took the time to teach us how to write and troubleshoot programs, along with Bread Board projects that we could hook up to the computer and run a program to do whatever we had created.

Re: Raspberry Pi 'community'

Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 1:47 am
by W. H. Heydt
broe23 wrote: As adults, we should be helping them troubleshoot their programs if they ask for assistance, instead of shoving them off to some obscure link that all they will find is attacks telling them RTFM.
Back in the day (yes, I'm old enough that my first programming languages were FORTRAN II and SPS II), in one shop I worked in the "go to" guy for problems one couldn't solve had a policy. The first time a given person asked a particular question, he would tell them what the answer was, why that was the answer and how to understand both the problem and the answer. The second time the same person asked the same question, he would give them the answer. The third and subsequent times, he would give them the manual reference.

I did have the good fortune that he once conceded that, generally speaking, I asked unique questions that didn't have obvious answers and didn't ask any given question more than once. (My practice was to check the manuals before seeking help. Didn't always work, but I solved a great many of my own problems.)

I a later shop. I was to "go to" person for dump reading and debugging.

I'm happy to help with programming problems for new programmers so long as it is within my areas of knowledge. On the other hand, I'm not about to do someones homework for them as that is--I think--counterproductive. In either case, I would like to see at least *some* evidence that an attempt was made to solve the problem on their own before asking for help, rather than asking for answers without even studying the problem. And, of course, a panic when facing a deadline on the part of someone doing a project does not constitute an emergency on my part. Think of it as the programming equivalent of "tough love."

Then there was the fellow who sought help on comp.unix.questions ending with, "And don't tell me to RTFM if you WTFM."

Re: Raspberry Pi 'community'

Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 2:41 am
by broe23
I remember those days. My dad would have to come upstairs to my room to always get a manual or something else when I would be working on something. It finally got to the point that I ended up just putting the computer in my room, since I would be doing all nighters when coding or going to BBS's later on when they became more of the norm, so that I could download programs and then tear them apart to figure out how they were written.

Gone are the days of a Heathkit H-89 running CP/M and heating up the room so much that you had to open the windows. I actually wrote one of the first remote access dial-up programs by taking apart a BBS program for the Heath H-8. It took me about a month to get it working right, then I started to make it so that you could go in and run programs that the remote user could actually see on their end.

All of my code that was on 5 1/4" floppy disks are gone, along with all of the mental notes and some of the handwritten one. I really wished that I had printed some of the stuff out, since I could probably use Python to build a better one out of my old code.

Re: Raspberry Pi 'community'

Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 4:09 am
by skspurling
boyoh wrote:The innovation of basic circuit building ,and understanding is loosing favor
It is all pre-packs and plug in circuit boards now," Soldering Irons what are they"
Test benches nearly obsolete I'm speaking from experience having worked as
a technician for for many years, Seeing both sides , before the chip and and after
the chip. All very good for production lines. I've been retired 20 yrs, but still miss
the buzz of fault finding

If you are interested in the Pi, it is worthwhile learning basic electronics.
I blame surface mount components... and fat fingers... of course, aging eyes don't help. And, as clock frequencies go up, so does the cost of test gear. If you can't test it, you might as well buy prebuilt components and modules. I love the idea of wire wraping s100 cards, but my generation just built with isa, pci, and pci-e cards on a motherboard.

Re: Raspberry Pi 'community'

Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 4:15 am
by skspurling
And, remember kids, never mention a project that generates RF signals with the pi! That's a stink that will never come off that idea. :?

Re: Raspberry Pi 'community'

Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 4:19 am
by mthomason
skspurling wrote: I blame surface mount components... and fat fingers... of course, aging eyes don't help.
I hate that so many chips I want to use aren't available in DIP format, just these damn teeny things that I can't work with unless I buy them built into breakout modules with decent pin spacing. ;)

Re: Raspberry Pi 'community'

Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 4:30 am
by broe23
I have to use Reading glasses aince I had Cataracts removed. I saw better up close before the Surgery. Now it is that if it is within 5-8 feet, I can see fine without them.

The best memory I had when my dad and I were putting together the H-89. Was when he reversed one of the big oil filled Cap's on the Power Supply board.

You would have thought that a 10 gauge went off. First time I ever saw my dad under the table with this look of "Man that was loud.". He had worked on radios for the Air Force and worked for the Telephone company all of his life. Just got in a bit of a hurry and flustered. Never saw that he put it on the board in reverse when he double checked the work.