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Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:30 am
by darkbibble
the zero can have audio output already if you reassign 2 pins for audio output and build a simple circuit from the adafruit tutorial.
https://learn.adafruit.com/adding-basic ... o/overview

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:34 pm
by fanoush
darkbibble wrote:the zero can have audio output already if you reassign 2 pins for audio output and build a simple circuit from the adafruit tutorial.
https://learn.adafruit.com/adding-basic ... o/overview
yeah but you lose 2 GPIOs that way (18 and 19 or 13)

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:57 pm
by blaablaaguy
fanoush wrote:
darkbibble wrote:the zero can have audio output already if you reassign 2 pins for audio output and build a simple circuit from the adafruit tutorial.
https://learn.adafruit.com/adding-basic ... o/overview
yeah but you lose 2 GPIOs that way (18 and 19 or 13)
Its better having it onboard tho.

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:22 pm
by TimG
The Pi Zero is tiny and cheap, and almost perfect for portable battery-powered devices. Its main flaw is its current consumption. If the new feature were a low-power standby mode, the Zero would take over the world.

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:05 pm
by W. H. Heydt
TimG wrote:If the new feature were a low-power standby mode, the Zero would take over the world.
I'm not sure "taking over the world" is that good an idea. If you think they're in short supply now...

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:37 pm
by mikerr
Availability would be the best new feature.. it's a bit of a ghost product.

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:53 pm
by stderr
TimG wrote:The Pi Zero is tiny and cheap, and almost perfect for portable battery-powered devices. Its main flaw is its current consumption. If the new feature were a low-power standby mode, the Zero would take over the world.
So a complete lack of network connectivity isn't important in something that is going to Borg like take over the world? What would the Borg be like without network connectivity?: "Seven of Nine calling Seven of Eight, is there anybody out there? Break, break."

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:53 pm
by Flagbit
TimG wrote:The Pi Zero is tiny and cheap, and almost perfect for portable battery-powered devices. Its main flaw is its current consumption. If the new feature were a low-power standby mode, the Zero would take over the world.
+1

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:12 am
by SteveSpencer
So a complete lack of network connectivity isn't important in something that is going to Borg like take over the world? What would the Borg be like without network connectivity?: "Seven of Nine calling Seven of Eight, is there anybody out there? Break, break."
Mine are on networks. I have USB WiFi and wired, plus ENC28J60 connections. Off-board, but still connectable.

"We will add your distinctiveness to the collective.", after all...

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 5:07 pm
by Higgs
Frankly my own wish isn't Zero-specific - but an OpenGL driver that can utilize the GPU of the Pi's to their fullest. I would consider that to actually be a power-bump-up for every Pi, since it always seems it otherwise has one hand tied behind it's back.

The only other thing I can think of Zero-specific is to get rid of the OTG cable and have 2 USB connectors directly on it...

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 5:46 pm
by W. H. Heydt
Higgs wrote:Frankly my own wish isn't Zero-specific - but an OpenGL driver that can utilize the GPU of the Pi's to their fullest. I would consider that to actually be a power-bump-up for every Pi, since it always seems it otherwise has one hand tied behind it's back.
That is being worked on. Since you want it pretty badly, that means you have just volunteered to help make it happen.
The only other thing I can think of Zero-specific is to get rid of the OTG cable and have 2 USB connectors directly on it...
Not going to happen for a number of reasons. First and foremost, that would require adding a USB hub chip to the Pi Zero. The implication of that is--rather obviously--that it would increase the cost of the Pi Zero, thus violating the prime design principle of the board.

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:01 pm
by Higgs
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Higgs wrote:Frankly my own wish isn't Zero-specific - but an OpenGL driver that can utilize the GPU of the Pi's to their fullest. I would consider that to actually be a power-bump-up for every Pi, since it always seems it otherwise has one hand tied behind it's back.
That is being worked on. Since you want it pretty badly, that means you have just volunteered to help make it happen.
The only other thing I can think of Zero-specific is to get rid of the OTG cable and have 2 USB connectors directly on it...
Not going to happen for a number of reasons. First and foremost, that would require adding a USB hub chip to the Pi Zero. The implication of that is--rather obviously--that it would increase the cost of the Pi Zero, thus violating the prime design principle of the board.
No reason to get snotty. It's a statement of opinion, unless you have become the self-appointed censor of opinions.

As for the Zero price-point, adding the necessary attachments to make it viable makes a minor cost addition a specious argument.

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:44 pm
by fanoush
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Higgs wrote: The only other thing I can think of Zero-specific is to get rid of the OTG cable and have 2 USB connectors directly on it...
Not going to happen for a number of reasons. First and foremost, that would require adding a USB hub chip to the Pi Zero. The implication of that is--rather obviously--that it would increase the cost of the Pi Zero, thus violating the prime design principle of the board.
It can be also understood as a wish of having both microusb and usb female wired to same one port so you can use one for usb host without any converter or another for usb device but not both at the same time. A bit unusual but could be handy if there is a space. Maybe they could be even put so close to each other that it would be hard to attach cables to both by mistake.

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:30 pm
by gregeric
USB is great as it is - no hub, making gadget mode possible, & no big clunky host sockets. External hubs are cheap & choice is huge eg you can get 3 ports plus ethernet for £3 that plugs straight in without adapters should you need more ports.

Zero fits the bill as the hardware hackers' Pi, cheap enough so as not to worry too much about breaking it - a poor man's compute module. On the USB side all I'd like to see is USB D+ D- on header pins to make it easier for hardware hackers to neatly connect Zero-specific hubs. No cost other than board space. I'll forgo SDIO_D2 & SDIO_D3 (drop to 1-bit SDIO mode) on my 2x6 header proposal & have USB D+ D- there instead. (Secretly I'm still hoping for camera too).

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:40 pm
by W. H. Heydt
Higgs wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Higgs wrote:Frankly my own wish isn't Zero-specific - but an OpenGL driver that can utilize the GPU of the Pi's to their fullest. I would consider that to actually be a power-bump-up for every Pi, since it always seems it otherwise has one hand tied behind it's back.
That is being worked on. Since you want it pretty badly, that means you have just volunteered to help make it happen.
The only other thing I can think of Zero-specific is to get rid of the OTG cable and have 2 USB connectors directly on it...
Not going to happen for a number of reasons. First and foremost, that would require adding a USB hub chip to the Pi Zero. The implication of that is--rather obviously--that it would increase the cost of the Pi Zero, thus violating the prime design principle of the board.
No reason to get snotty. It's a statement of opinion, unless you have become the self-appointed censor of opinions.
I'm not trying to censor any opinions, but when someone says they want a particular software feature, so far as I am concerned they have implicitly just volunteered to help make it happen. If you don't know *how* to do the kind of programming that's required, you can always work on it by volunteering as an alpha or beta tester. If I am not mistaken, there is beta testing of at least part of the project in progress. (Hardware is another matter. Any hardware changes/additions require convincing the engineers or their managers that they are cost effective and useful enough to warrant inclusion.)
As for the Zero price-point, adding the necessary attachments to make it viable makes a minor cost addition a specious argument.
That is true of *all* models of Pi (though some more than others), depending on what your use case is. For others, no additional hardware is needed for the Pi itself. Since the object of the Pi Zero is to sell the cheapest possible computer, adding *anything* that increases the cost of manufacture is going to be a non-starter.

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:44 pm
by W. H. Heydt
fanoush wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Higgs wrote: The only other thing I can think of Zero-specific is to get rid of the OTG cable and have 2 USB connectors directly on it...
Not going to happen for a number of reasons. First and foremost, that would require adding a USB hub chip to the Pi Zero. The implication of that is--rather obviously--that it would increase the cost of the Pi Zero, thus violating the prime design principle of the board.
It can be also understood as a wish of having both microusb and usb female wired to same one port so you can use one for usb host without any converter or another for usb device but not both at the same time. A bit unusual but could be handy if there is a space. Maybe they could be even put so close to each other that it would be hard to attach cables to both by mistake.
Space would be a problem. Also, if you look carefully at a Pi Zero, there is no hand soldering (such as is used for full-sized USB ports, and all soldering is done on one side, unlike the other Pi models in places like...full sized USB ports.

So again...extra cost isn't going to happen and adding a full-sized USB port, with or without a hub, would be extra cost and that goes against the design of the Pi Zero.

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:52 pm
by Higgs
"I'm not trying to censor any opinions, but when someone says they want a particular software feature, so far as I am concerned they have implicitly just volunteered to help make it happen. "


Surprise - but what you think doesn't matter. What you think doesn't determine the course of the universe.

Sure cheap matters. When you add the cost of interfacing to it with cables and hubs, how much is it really? How much to add that instead in bulk to producing them? How many PiZ's before the marginal cost of the function added to each one breaks even to the added cost of the add-ons?

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:21 pm
by evilkitty
Here are my guesses
bare audio pin out (like the analog video out)
power protection
black PCB

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:25 pm
by davidcoton
Higgs wrote:"I'm not trying to censor any opinions, but when someone says they want a particular software feature, so far as I am concerned they have implicitly just volunteered to help make it happen. "


Surprise - but what you think doesn't matter. What you think doesn't determine the course of the universe.

Sure cheap matters. When you add the cost of interfacing to it with cables and hubs, how much is it really? How much to add that instead in bulk to producing them? How many PiZ's before the marginal cost of the function added to each one breaks even to the added cost of the add-ons?
You may not like Mr Heydt's thoughts, but they matter as much as yours. Especially when it is written from long experience on this forum, and a considerable knowledge of how Pi developments work. Much of the Pi software is developed by volunteers (that is the nature of open source), so if you want a feature badly enough, please do what you can to make it happen, instead of assuming that there is an army of developers just looking for ideas to implement. Independent testing is valuable, and if you have a particular use case, you can influence the developers to cover your needs just by providing test feedback. If you can't do that (and not all of us can, for whatever reason), your wishes in many cases will ,probably remain wishes. In this case, development is is progress, although there is some way to go.

With the Pi Zero, cost not only matters, it is critical. The Pi is already "viable" -- that's why they are selling as fast as they are made. You are of course right, that those who need a hub would get a better deal with a higher priced Pi with the hub built in. That will not be a Pi Zero, but it could be a B+/2B/3B (oh look -- they are already available -- now you know what the extra features cost).

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:33 pm
by Higgs
Thank you Mr. Colon for a measured response.

My apologies to forum readers and Mr Heydt. As I said, I stated an Opinion - it was NOT a bashing, which would have instead been more like:

"I HATE this thing!! Why is it so &*$#@!! What are you people doing??!!!"

No - It was not that.

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:41 pm
by davidcoton
Higgs wrote:Thank you Mr. Colon for a measured response.

My apologies to forum readers and Mr Heydt. As I said, I stated an Opinion - it was NOT a bashing, which would have instead been more like:

"I HATE this thing!! Why is it so &*$#@!! What are you people doing??!!!"

No - It was not that.
I didn't think you were bashing -- both your thoughts are very reasonable wishes. One will happen, probably. The other won't, probably. The responses are to show readers (not just you -- it is a forum) that sometimes we can do something to help turn our wishes into reality, other times there are Reasons why they will remain wishes. I hope you can find a way to be involved. (I hope answering forum posts counts!)

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:48 am
by W. H. Heydt
Higgs wrote:"I'm not trying to censor any opinions, but when someone says they want a particular software feature, so far as I am concerned they have implicitly just volunteered to help make it happen. "


Surprise - but what you think doesn't matter. What you think doesn't determine the course of the universe.
/shrug What was that about "only an opinion"?
Sure cheap matters. When you add the cost of interfacing to it with cables and hubs, how much is it really? How much to add that instead in bulk to producing them? How many PiZ's before the marginal cost of the function added to each one breaks even to the added cost of the add-ons?
Do I have to amortize the cost of the trains, trucks, airplanes, and--possibly--ships that it takes to deliver the Pi Zero as well? From the RPTs perspective, the cost of a Pi is the retail price of the board, just as it is for every other Pi. The RPT wants the purchase price of the board to be as low as possible. All other bits and bobs are up to the user to decide what he needs. If have a Pi Zero project that will require, a micro SD card ($3), a PSU (I have 1A spares from the Model B days, $0), an OTG cable ($1.49), an RTC ($2.58), 5 header pins ($0.15?), and a USB to Ethernet adapter ($6 for the one I plan to use). If I use any other Pi (say an A+), I'd need most of that (just take off the pins and the OTG cable, so less than $2) but I'd be start from at least a $20 base, but at that point, a B+ (at $25) would be cheaper because it already has an Ethernet port.

What you *do* with a Pi Zero, or any other model, is up to you. What you add to it to accomplish that is up to you. The RPT is just seeing that the price of the board is as cheap as they can arrange it to be.

I'm not sure what part of that is causing the problem, but it is--somehow--at least a failure to accept the RPTs premise.

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:13 am
by echmain
TimG wrote:If the new feature were a low-power standby mode, the Zero would take over the world.
I for one, welcome our new Raspberry Overlords.

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:33 am
by Higgs
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Higgs wrote:"I'm not trying to censor any opinions, but when someone says they want a particular software feature, so far as I am concerned they have implicitly just volunteered to help make it happen. "


Surprise - but what you think doesn't matter. What you think doesn't determine the course of the universe.
/shrug What was that about "only an opinion"?
Sure cheap matters. When you add the cost of interfacing to it with cables and hubs, how much is it really? How much to add that instead in bulk to producing them? How many PiZ's before the marginal cost of the function added to each one breaks even to the added cost of the add-ons?
Do I have to amortize the cost of the trains, trucks, airplanes, and--possibly--ships that it takes to deliver the Pi Zero as well? From the RPTs perspective, the cost of a Pi is the retail price of the board, just as it is for every other Pi. The RPT wants the purchase price of the board to be as low as possible. All other bits and bobs are up to the user to decide what he needs. If have a Pi Zero project that will require, a micro SD card ($3), a PSU (I have 1A spares from the Model B days, $0), an OTG cable ($1.49), an RTC ($2.58), 5 header pins ($0.15?), and a USB to Ethernet adapter ($6 for the one I plan to use). If I use any other Pi (say an A+), I'd need most of that (just take off the pins and the OTG cable, so less than $2) but I'd be start from at least a $20 base, but at that point, a B+ (at $25) would be cheaper because it already has an Ethernet port.

What you *do* with a Pi Zero, or any other model, is up to you. What you add to it to accomplish that is up to you. The RPT is just seeing that the price of the board is as cheap as they can arrange it to be.

I'm not sure what part of that is causing the problem, but it is--somehow--at least a failure to accept the RPTs premise.
Yes - and what was that about "not censoring opinions". My original opinion was about the RPi functionality. Yours was about me. THAT'S the opinion that doesn't matter. And if you have the emotional need to direct people into what they "should" be doing, knock yourself out.

Let's make it even cheaper and leave out the HDMI video too.

Re: Pi Zero new feature

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 6:59 am
by NicoVanDerDussen
The Raspberry Pi Zero is an excellent product for the appropriate application.

Any additional features would be a bonus!

At $5 is has a superb price, and makes many projects viable - even adding the additionals like SD/Power/Wifi things.

I can't wait for production catching up with demand - only then we will be able to get such units in South Africa without the expensive add-ons

I most definitely have use for a few :D