masa-aud
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Re: Why is everyone having such an issue install OS?

Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:45 pm

reply to zealousd on install OS issue
I think for beginners that to install OS is only a fraction of issue of total to their goal from scratch. There are plenty of uncertainty to solve and fix needed time one by one before and during OS install to the goal, like behavior of power unit, type and functions of display, keyboard, mouse, suitable types of cables, knacks of inserting and connecting, etc., etc. .
I also think that this process provides them to learn much, not only from OS and installer aspect. They need a great educational time for doing hundreds of Qs & As here.

hippy
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Re: Why is everyone having such an issue install OS?

Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:02 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
hippy wrote: There is some confusion over NOOBS not showing some OS's which some documentation suggests will be there but that's a documentation issue.
Yes the Documentation or should that be what Documentation :shock:
I guess this is what most noobs would encounter ...

https://www.raspberrypi.org/help/noobs-setup
https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentati ... n/noobs.md

Both are outdated and could be written to be easier to follow and understand.

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Re: Why is everyone having such an issue install OS?

Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:34 pm

just my input:

as for what currently the biggest problem is to get Raspbian booting through the use of NOOBS is, writing the NOOBS files to a badly formatted card, that still has many untouched, (by the formatter) partitions on it, and which only has the first (FAT) partition formatted. This happens when you use the wrong formatter, or the right formatter, but fail to set the right format parameters. That is why formatting with a camera works, as the formatter in the camera is generally stupid, and has no knowledge of partitions, it just clears the card, and writes a FAT32 data structure to it.

true, now with the PI3 there are generally more insufficient power (reboot) problems, and attempts to boot incompatible software that adds to the trouble, and yes people are lazy and ask for help before attempting to find the problem themselves, (by finding and reading the available information) sorry for the broad generalization, but this is often the case!

as a general problem with NOOBS I would say that it behaves differently than Raspbian does, and tries to be "smart" by offering four settings, HDMI standard, HDMI safe, PAL and NTSC by using a mechanism that only people that have read the instructions realize is there... then it makes the further big mistake of writing what it thinks the users choice is to config,txt, but there is a big chance the user has never gotten a picture, and NOOBS writes the wrong info to config.txt, blocking even Raspbian from displaying the correct picture. this is simply brain-dead behavior!

its not so much the documentation of NOOBS that is bad, but that NOOBS makes assumptions that might very well be untrue. NOOBS should be changed, to behave exactly like Raspbian does, and should not write to config.txt, then the documentation can be simplified too.

312capri
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Re: Why is everyone having such an issue install OS?

Sat Mar 26, 2016 4:57 pm

Just installed the NOOBS Version:1.9.0 Release date:2016-03-18 last night. System installed without issues. Needed to edit to "config.txt" removing the # comment out "hdmi_drive=2" so my HDMI monitor would have sound.

I should also add I downloaded the NOOBS onto my desktop which runs Windows 7 and then copied the files to the micro SD drive after using the recommended SD format procedure.
Last edited by 312capri on Sun Mar 27, 2016 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why is everyone having such an issue install OS?

Sat Mar 26, 2016 5:19 pm

mahjongg wrote: ...
its not so much the documentation of NOOBS that is bad, but that NOOBS makes assumptions that might very well be untrue.
...
To qualify further (having been involved in the late alpha & beta testing of the first versions of NOOBS):
1) The assumptions were never really explicitly stated.
2) But, AFAICT, they were valid "at the time" but, given that NOOBS was intended for Windows users, that O.S. has passed through at least two iterations itself (and hence the tools commonly available) since those assumptions were formed.

Personally I've never had any significant problems with NOOBS (pre-installed or downloaded) with a "standard" setup ie. Pi, wired keyboard & mouse + HDMI monitor or TV and wired ethernet connection. But, as I've logged in my "NOOBS" related webpages, wireless keyboards and/or non-HDMI displays (including HDMI-to-VGA converters) can lead to "unexpected behaviour". Unfortunately I cannot repeat my tests with current versions of NOOBS since I now only have access to a really old Windows version (XP) and so, have not added to those pages.
Trev.
Still running Raspbian Jessie or Stretch on some older Pi's (an A, B1, B2, B+, P2B, 3xP0, P0W, 2xP3A+, P3B+, P3B, B+, A+ and a B2) but Buster on the P4B's. See: https://www.cpmspectrepi.uk/raspberry_pi/raspiidx.htm

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Re: Why is everyone having such an issue install OS?

Sat Mar 26, 2016 5:35 pm

jamesh wrote:I've noticed quite a number of questions from people using OS other than Raspbian. Perhaps a lot of that is down to trying something on a Pi3 that hasn't yet been updated.

I just wish that beginners always used Raspbian, that's guaranteed to be working with al models of Pi.
There was a recent thread in which someone wanted to know what OSes NOOBS could load on a Pi3B. After several posts went by, I downloaded NOOBS Lite (for speed), put it on a card and booted the Pi. Then I posted a list. Several of the choices indicated "Pi 2". I would hope that anyone trying to install an OS other than Raspbian would pay attention to those annotations and NOT try to install them on a Pi3 since I take it as a strong indication that those particular OSes are not ready for the Pi3.

I have demo'd installing Raspbian from NOOBS at Jams a couple of times, but I don't actually use NOOBS on any of my Pis. I just install Raspbian images directly.

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Re: Why is everyone having such an issue install OS?

Sat Mar 26, 2016 5:48 pm

mattmiller wrote:
I just wish that beginners always used Raspbian, that's guaranteed to be working with al models of Pi.
All it would take for that would be for the Foundationto have it put on all pre-staged SD cards and move NOOBS to a dusty shelf at back of the shop

NOOBS was an idea to make it easy to try multiple OSes - that time has passed - geeks are capable of trying multiple OSes - newbies just want to be up and running OOB
Matthew
Part of the issue with pre-loaded cards is a matter of inventory. The cards usually date back to earlier versions, and if there has been a hardware change (such as a new RAM supplier) or a new product, those cards won't actually work.

The *concept* of NOOBS is good. It's just not really possible to execute the process in a way to avoid some of these problems. This, rather obviously, is why those who have been around a while so often recommend a "download and rebuild" procedure to solve problems with pre-loaded cards. The other (good) thing about NOOBS is that it is a way of getting away from the need to download and install specialized software and permit not terribly computer savvy people to load the needed files onto an SD card from a PC and stay within their comfort zone.

I really can't fault the RPF for this effort. On the other hand, I can understand that someone new to the Pi coming here, asking a question and getting back large amounts of text that they don't really understand. (Yesterday in the CM Forum in discussing the issue of loading Raspbian Lite onto the eMMC on a CM I used "dd"...and then got asked what *that* meant. While dealing as gently as I could with that issue, I did have to wonder why someone who doesn't know what "dd" is is doing working with a CM...Of course...we all have to start *somewhere*.)

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Re: Why is everyone having such an issue install OS?

Sat Mar 26, 2016 5:59 pm

zealousd wrote:
DirkS wrote:
zealousd wrote:i was not overly happy with noobs so i found ubuntu and was like get that on the card quick
Why ubuntu and not Raspbian. Would probably have been just as quick...
i have always used ubuntu on PC and laptops apart from the occasional Kali linux and at the end of the day it is something i know that works, i will be looking at other OS's eventually but i just wanted something to run what i wanted and i knew how to get it working which i am sure Raspbian would of been the same really.
See... This is the sort of thing others need to know about your recommendation. My past with Linux (and unix before it) is very different. The first Linux I played around with was a fairly early Red Hat system. Didn't do much with it, but my moderate prior unix experience made it understandable. Then I used a SUSE Linux system for about 12 years before the Pi cam on the scene. Now I'm using Raspbian and I'm happy with it. I do have a (very rarely used) Ubuntu system in the house. I inherited it (literally). The way the interfaces are set up really doesn't suit me, and I don't feel like doing enough with it to change that. I don't *want* the sort of "hand holding" that Ubuntu provides. The other big factor here is that I'm a retired programmer with many years of experience on mainframes. That tends to color my approach to things like OSes.

That you prefer Ubuntu is fine...for you. That doesn't mean that it is either a good or bad choice for others. Raspbian is specifically tailored to work well on the Pi and has more support than any other OS that will run on a Pi. As a result, someone who is new the Pi really, really should run Raspbian, at least until they understand Linux enough to be aware of what choices and tradeoffs they are making if they elect to use a different OS. Remember, we get a lot of people for whom "computer" == "PC" == MS Windows. With Linux, they are stepping into a new and, often, frightening world. Don't make it any tougher on them than it has to be.

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Re: Why is everyone having such an issue install OS?

Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:18 pm

gordon77 wrote:
rurwin wrote:
Jednorozec wrote:NOOBS seems to cause more problems than it solves so forget the dusty shelf and just bury it.
I think you are suffering from the same sampling error. NOOBS works great for noobs. It's a simple copy operation to write the SD card and no confusing multiple partitions that Windows won't read.

However, if you want to do something more advanced, such as boot headless from the start for example, then NOOBS does get in the way. So if you're not a noob, don't use NOOBS; go straight to Raspbian. And of course if you are advanced enough to know the difference then you can choose some other distribution.
Installing raspbian with Win32diskmanager Isn't difficult, assuming you have a windows pc. Just download, unzip and write, works everytime for me. Just don't try reading the SD card on a windows pc, no need.
I agree that it is that simple. Now put yourself in the shoes of someone who uses, but does not understand, Windows and for whom a PC is a classic "black box". That PC *probably* has an unzip program...though it may never have been consciously/deliberately used. Our hypothetical newcomer (I actually dislike the term "noob") is now asked to download and install some software he has (a) never heard of, (b) doesn't know how to use, and (c) has warnings about how to use it, lest he wipe his HDD. That would be enough to scare off a lot of people. That is going to be rather unnerving to the sort of person NOOBS is meant for.

It may be easier for me to empathize with the sort of newcomer that NOOBS is for. My wife is quite non-technical, despite having started using unix (and later Linux) in the late 1970s (on bsd 2.9). You will very rarely meet someone who can tough type vi and nroff at 100+ wpm. She had to *learn*--against prior experience--not to be afraid to try things that might, or might not work, when dealing with computers. This is because in a traditional office environment, if you push the wrong button and a piece of equipment breaks, it is "your fault" and managers get upset with you. If she had to go through the process to do a direct install of Raspbian, she would almost certainly give up in frustration. On the other hand, because she did get a lot of experince *using* unix, she is quite comfortable using PuTTY to ssh into a Pi (once I've set it up) and running such few commands as she needs to, like killing a running mplayer session. However, she wants me to make any changes to crontab.

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Re: Why is everyone having such an issue install OS?

Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:08 pm

… and then, sometimes when you know what you're doing, something unexpected happens. Like with my first Raspberry Pi 3 installation.

I'm pretty confident with installations, now that I've been installing and running almost every kind of Raspberry Pi since launch day. Use a decent power supply. Use reputable µSD cards from a reputable source. With the official power supply, and a new Kingston Class 10 card, attaching to a known-good HDMI monitor: what could go wrong?

I'll tell you what could go wrong: a faulty card.

At the first system update, just as it was upgrading Perl, the system would hang. Any open terminal wouldn't be able to find commands. Reformatting using the official sdcard.org SD Formatter and reimaging caused the same error in the same place. Reformatting the card (very slow, with the official formatter) and taking pictures on the card with my camera showed there was a hard write error that the card controller couldn't work around.

It still rattled me pretty badly, even though I knew what must have been happening. If this had been my first experience with Raspberry Pi, I wouldn't have been impressed — even though it's not the computer's fault, or indeed anything I could have controlled. There are a lot of variables in the installation process, and controlling them all is hard.
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Re: Why is everyone having such an issue install OS?

Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:53 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:
jamesh wrote: I just wish that beginners always used Raspbian, that's guaranteed to be working with al models of Pi.
+1 Raspbian Jessie

....though for the more adventurous ArchLinuxArm !!
Any advice for those trying to setup Arch from a Windows PC? Been trying for the past couple of days with no success. Tried following the given instructions using a guest Zorin OS, which didn't work and tried installing a .img file someone had made from the .tar.gz but that didn't boot either. Plus I have made various attempts at bodging it together, but no success yet.

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Re: Why is everyone having such an issue install OS?

Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:15 am

Koeshi wrote:Any advice for those trying to setup Arch from a Windows PC? Been trying for the past couple of days with no success. Tried following the given instructions using a guest Zorin OS, which didn't work and tried installing a .img file someone had made from the .tar.gz but that didn't boot either. Plus I have made various attempts at bodging it together, but no success yet.
Seriously off topic here.
Please create a new one. Best place is Operating Systems / Arch

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Re: Why is everyone having such an issue install OS?

Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:43 am

zealousd wrote:I went from Noobs to Ubuntu Mate and never had an issue that i didn't cause.

Just wondering what is everyone sticking with after their first week of screwing with the Pi, after putting Ubuntu on it.

Been running perfect.
Answering the original question:

I tried Raspbian and that works fine. The design is sometimes clunky and although it's performance is good, it's to slow for some websites or when using Evolution. I asked about it on this forum, but nobody seems to have the same problem and nobody could give me hints on how to make that better (except using the experimental GL driver, which may help a bit, I'm not sure). So I understand for such a small and cheap computer, I can't expect more.
After messing up, I had to reinstall Raspbian a few times and for some reason, I can only install with NOOBS, the other images don't run, they end with a kernel panic.
Yesterday I installed Ubuntu Mate with BerryBoot. That works fine, the design is less faulty, but it is WAY to slow, I have to wait for a window to open. It's also a bit more closed, as I could not find the Raspberry configuration (to overclock maybe) and some other settings I could reach with Raspbian.
On the forum I read about people using the Raspberry Pi happily, and nobody mentions slowness. That you and other people use Ubuntu really surprises me. Raspbian could work, Ubuntu is WAY to slow on my RPI3. What programs do you use on your Raspberry Pi? What's the limit?
I started a thread about this, because I didn't got a good answer, but that's closed because I already asked elsewhere. So now I can't ask about the performance of my Raspberry Pi, I hope someone reads this or the old thread :-).
--::--::- 3 x Raspberry Pi 3 - Raspbian Lite 9 - RuneAudio - one broke (wifi) - not in use -::--::--

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Re: Why is everyone having such an issue install OS?

Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:52 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
zealousd wrote:
DirkS wrote: i have always used ubuntu on PC and laptops apart from the occasional Kali linux and at the end of the day it is something i know that works, i will be looking at other OS's eventually but i just wanted something to run what i wanted and i knew how to get it working which i am sure Raspbian would of been the same really.
See... This is the sort of thing others need to know about your recommendation. My past with Linux (and unix before it) is very different. The first Linux I played around with was a fairly early Red Hat system. Didn't do much with it, but my moderate prior unix experience made it understandable. Then I used a SUSE Linux system for about 12 years before the Pi cam on the scene. Now I'm using Raspbian and I'm happy with it. I do have a (very rarely used) Ubuntu system in the house. I inherited it (literally). The way the interfaces are set up really doesn't suit me, and I don't feel like doing enough with it to change that. I don't *want* the sort of "hand holding" that Ubuntu provides. The other big factor here is that I'm a retired programmer with many years of experience on mainframes. That tends to color my approach to things like OSes.

That you prefer Ubuntu is fine...for you. That doesn't mean that it is either a good or bad choice for others. Raspbian is specifically tailored to work well on the Pi and has more support than any other OS that will run on a Pi. As a result, someone who is new the Pi really, really should run Raspbian, at least until they understand Linux enough to be aware of what choices and tradeoffs they are making if they elect to use a different OS. Remember, we get a lot of people for whom "computer" == "PC" == MS Windows. With Linux, they are stepping into a new and, often, frightening world. Don't make it any tougher on them than it has to be.
Well said mate :)

i do enjoy reading the different opinions that people have on this topic
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Re: Why is everyone having such an issue install OS?

Tue Mar 29, 2016 10:07 am

zealousd wrote:Well said mate :)
Hmmm. can you please edit that post... You messed up the quotes.
I can honestly say that I have never used Kali and I have no intention of doing so.
And my laptop (a word that I never use BTW) has only seen Ubuntu inside a VM.

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Re: Why is everyone having such an issue install OS?

Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:37 am

I don't know if this is the appropriate forum to ask this question. Sorry if it is not...

I installed ubuntu MATE on an 8 gb micro sdhc "transcend" card it worked just fine but i realised that the space left after installing all important things was too less.
I copied the image from this card and wrote it to a samsung 32gb micro sdhc card although the image is working and i am able to boot the os... the os does'nt recognize the space and is still saying that there is too less space on the sd card and says that the sd card is of 8gb.

P.S. i used win32diskimager for doing the stuff and sd card formatter for formatting the card on a windowss 10 machine

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Re: Why is everyone having such an issue install OS?

Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:40 am

Abhiraj Tiwari wrote:I copied the image from this card and wrote it to a samsung 32gb micro sdhc card although the image is working and i am able to boot the os... the os does'nt recognize the space and is still saying that there is too less space on the sd card and says that the sd card is of 8gb.
Use sudo raspi-config (or the GUI version in the Preferences menu) to expand the filesystem.

... always assuming Ubuntu Mate has raspi-config.

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Re: Why is everyone having such an issue install OS?

Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:33 am

rurwin wrote:
Abhiraj Tiwari wrote:I copied the image from this card and wrote it to a samsung 32gb micro sdhc card although the image is working and i am able to boot the os... the os does'nt recognize the space and is still saying that there is too less space on the sd card and says that the sd card is of 8gb.
Use sudo raspi-config (or the GUI version in the Preferences menu) to expand the filesystem.

... always assuming Ubuntu Mate has raspi-config.
Nope, see https://ubuntu-mate.org/raspberry-pi/, section 'Re-size file system'

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Re: Why is everyone having such an issue install OS?

Wed Mar 30, 2016 11:20 am

I think there are two reasons for the reports. The release pi3 means that power supplies which were adequate for a pi 2 might not be adequate for a pi 3. The second reason is that there has been some fiddling with the way raspbian image talks to the sd card. There were no issues on a pi 2, but some cards stopped working on a pi 3. The latest image has fixes, but the people reporting issues might not be using the latest image.

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