W. H. Heydt
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Re: PI Zero

Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:28 pm

mattmiller wrote:
We've had complaints that this thread is just regurgitating the same thing over and over again
Well you yourself provided the new info on SOC lead times that no-one else had mentioned so its not the same old stuff

Its a new real and understandable reason for low production - maybe it would have been good for Foundation to have mentioned it early on as its hardly something that needed to be kept secret - no interaction with Pi3 on that front - I wonder why they didn't?

Dare I suggest it's because they don't want to admit that they completely missed the market demand for the #PiZero and have some deep aversion to admitting errors?

And who are these people that are complaining - are they incapable of ignoring a thread that they are not interested in?

I think lots of other threads are full of useless stuff but I respect that the people involved in it don't do I leave them to it
I just misremebered what the lead times for chip production is, though at least I had a number that was only off by a factor of two...

Back near the dawn of history, specifically around August 2012, one of the two manufacturing licensees failed to anticipate just how much demand there was even for those early Pis. At the time, the lead time for them to get nore SoCs was mentioned, so that number *has* been mentioned before on these Forums.

mattmiller
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Re: PI Zero

Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:40 pm

maybe a "regurgitation" of that information would have been worthwhile - you know how bad the search is like on the forum!

W. H. Heydt
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Re: PI Zero

Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:03 am

mattmiller wrote:maybe a "regurgitation" of that information would have been worthwhile - you know how bad the search is like on the forum!
Accord to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semicondu ... abrication article (found with a quick Google search), manufacturing takes 6 to 8 weeks. That doesn't, of course, count the time to get a given run scheduled. So it looks like, just for the wafer manufacturing, my figure was correct. It's the overhead time that extends it to 12 to 14 weeks, or so.

It's not like this information is hard to find...

jamesh
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Re: PI Zero

Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:22 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
mattmiller wrote:maybe a "regurgitation" of that information would have been worthwhile - you know how bad the search is like on the forum!
Accord to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semicondu ... abrication article (found with a quick Google search), manufacturing takes 6 to 8 weeks. That doesn't, of course, count the time to get a given run scheduled. So it looks like, just for the wafer manufacturing, my figure was correct. It's the overhead time that extends it to 12 to 14 weeks, or so.

It's not like this information is hard to find...
4-6 weeks would be a rush job - you pay more for those, as you jump the queue (fabs have queues of people wanting stuff made). It's actually quite a lot more, so really not a suitable approach for the Zero where you want the chip made as cheaply as possible.

In answer to another statement above, I do think the Foundation underestimated the demand for the Zero. I know I did. I still don't understand it either!
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Jim JKla
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Re: PI Zero

Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:28 am

If you want to build a network of any kind then the headless zero is a much cheaper option compare 32 zeros £128 compared to 32 x RPi B's £1,120 which makes things infuriation when a project is looking at networks for whatever reason. ;)

And of course Zeros contribute less to the Heat Death of the Universe. :D
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piglet
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Re: PI Zero

Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:32 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:I've been mildly surprised that it has lasted this long.
Will discussion of unicorns help kill it? A while ago I arrived home from work to the joyous sounds of two small children in fits of laughter. They were drawing pictures of...as they described it "unicorns pooping rainbows". As far as I know unfortunately there weren't any Pi Zeroes at the end of the rainbows.

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Re: PI Zero

Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:33 am

Jim JKla wrote:If you want to build a network of any kind then the headless zero is a much cheaper option compare 32 zeros £128 compared to 32 x RPi B's £1,120 which makes things infuriation when a project is looking at networks for whatever reason. ;)

And of course Zeros contribute less to the Heat Death of the Universe. :D
Don't forget added cost of USB hub and/or network adapter, which you get with the B3. And the added processing power, which you may or may not need.
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davidcoton
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Re: PI Zero

Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:35 am

Since the Pi Zero is the budget version, doesn't it come with a pony instead of a Unicorn :?:
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Jim JKla
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Re: PI Zero

Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:46 am

jamesh wrote:
Jim JKla wrote:If you want to build a network of any kind then the headless zero is a much cheaper option compare 32 zeros £128 compared to 32 x RPi B's £1,120 which makes things infuriation when a project is looking at networks for whatever reason. ;)

And of course Zeros contribute less to the Heat Death of the Universe. :D
Don't forget added cost of USB hub and/or network adapter, which you get with the B3. And the added processing power, which you may or may not need.
Wi-Fi dongle for network. ;)

My project only needs 4 also I am using an old upcycled Netgear router I got second hand for £7 for the wi-fi and other networking needs. An upcycled low power PSU to power the array.

Unfortunately the wi-fi radio is adding to the heat death to quote Larry Niven "TANSTAFL". :shock:
Noob is not derogatory the noob is just the lower end of the noob--geek spectrum being a noob is just your first step towards being an uber-geek ;)

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Re: PI Zero

Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:06 am

Jim JKla wrote:
jamesh wrote:
Jim JKla wrote:If you want to build a network of any kind then the headless zero is a much cheaper option compare 32 zeros £128 compared to 32 x RPi B's £1,120 which makes things infuriation when a project is looking at networks for whatever reason. ;)

And of course Zeros contribute less to the Heat Death of the Universe. :D
Don't forget added cost of USB hub and/or network adapter, which you get with the B3. And the added processing power, which you may or may not need.
Wi-Fi dongle for network. ;)

My project only needs 4 also I am using an old upcycled Netgear router I got second hand for £7 for the wi-fi and other networking needs. An upcycled low power PSU to power the array.

Unfortunately the wi-fi radio is adding to the heat death to quote Larry Niven "TANSTAFL". :shock:
So you need to add the cost of the Dongle and the adapter cable, which increases things slightly (another $6-$7?). When pricing up for a Zero based projects, always remember the ancillaries.
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Pithagoros
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Re: PI Zero

Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:22 am

Even with the extra bits a Zero always comes up much cheaper even than an A+. Especially if you are happy to wait for a China delivery, those adapter cables come up several for £1.
Plus, one cheap power supply can run at least two zeros.

mattmiller
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Re: PI Zero

Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:38 am

James makes valid points when pointing out TCO of a Pi project:

lets have 2 edge cases

PiZero+PSU+SD+WiFi + £5 of bits =~ £20

Pi3B+SD+Battery +£30 of bits (robot say) =~ £70

replacing each project with the other type of Pi


Pi3+PSU+SD + £5 of bits =~ £42

PiZero+SD+Battery+WiFi +£30 of bits (robot say) =~ £46

So simple project - saving =~ 50%
Advanced project - saving =~ 35%

If I've made major errors in above please point them out - if a few £ - don't bother please :)

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Re: PI Zero

Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:03 am

Don't forget time is money - extra setup time required for Zero, which may or may not be important.

But 30%cost saving seems about right. Just remember that 30% saving gives you a machine that is about 1000% less powerful!
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mattmiller
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Re: PI Zero

Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:09 am

Did you miss the 50% on small projects - should I make it bold for you :)

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Re: PI Zero

Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:12 am

When using £5 of bits - CPU power probably not going to be an issue - i.e remote WiFi temp sensor

I think one day, we'll get even you to jump over to our side of the fence as you'll want half a dozen around your home :)

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Re: PI Zero

Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:15 am

I have no other costs I normaly make my own cables, and I believe I can hard wire the power to th I/O connections

Even if I can't I have access to loads of phone cables (not all suitable not all work testing them aint a problem).

I have a screen on each but these are HDMI and I have the HDMI-MiniHDMI cables mutiple that were the wrong type someone orded for another project they are sitting unused (They have been liberated (Legaly) the power is drawn from the tv screen (it is sufficient to run a RPi 2B's so the Zero is no issue).

SD cards are already programmed there was a proof of concept using the RPi 2B's so its just a case of slotting those Micro SD cards into the Zero's.

The proof of concept with the Zero's uses 4 the advanced project uses 70 2 x arrays of 35 plus a controller I am actually going to use an Upcycled PC running Debian Jessie as the controller.

When you consider a saving of cica £30 per unit £2,100 is a significant saving.

I am also looking at getting Nano Wi-Fi's with a Micro USB as standard no adaptor needed.

Needless to say the Zero looks to be a massive saving of energy and hardware costs. ;)
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Re: PI Zero

Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:33 pm

mattmiller wrote:I think one day, we'll get even you to jump over to our side of the fence as you'll want half a dozen around your home :)
I think we just have to accept that some people simply don't understand those who think the Zero is the best Pi ever.

I've been the same with some bands, musicians and artists and only understood what others had seen in them when they produced something which appealed to me.

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Re: PI Zero

Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:43 pm

For perspective, I work for a company that makes DECT ULE chips, those used for IoT devices, and am currently working on making it all work on the Raspberry Pi. I currently have Pi working as a base station and can link ULE devices to it and have the software to see what happening, turn sockets/lights on off etc.

You know what? The Zero won't be too good for this sort of work, because it uses too much power. But where you do have a decent power supply, it might be very useful, but not as useful, I suspect, as a A+.

I have some window/door detection devices here that last for 1 year on two AAA batteries, motion sensors that last 6 months. No Pi can do that.
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gregeric
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Re: PI Zero

Wed Mar 23, 2016 1:08 pm

jamesh wrote:You know what? The Zero won't be too good for this sort of work, because it uses too much power.
Err? Zero surely is much the same as A+ in that respect, save the higher clock which can be restricted to match.

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Re: PI Zero

Wed Mar 23, 2016 2:16 pm

gregeric wrote:
jamesh wrote:You know what? The Zero won't be too good for this sort of work, because it uses too much power.
Err? Zero surely is much the same as A+ in that respect, save the higher clock which can be restricted to match.
No GPIO header unless you add it yourself, no USB port for the dongle without adapter, no camera interface. But, yes, you could use either. I'm using Pi3 as the basestation, I think the Pi3A would be a good option for remote ULE connections and processing.

But like anything, use the best device for the job, and the Zero will clearly be the best device in certain circumstances.
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Re: PI Zero

Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:49 pm

Gosh jamesh one could easily jump to the conclusion that you'd been given a secret mission to dampen demand for the Zero.

It's still the mutz nutz for my current stuff (Zero + SDIO WiFi = internet dongle for my arm mbed stuff).

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Re: PI Zero

Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:52 pm

gregeric wrote:Gosh jamesh one could easily jump to the conclusion that you'd been given a secret mission to dampen demand for the Zero.

It's still the mutz nutz for my current stuff (Zero + SDIO WiFi = internet dongle for my arm mbed stuff).
Nope, but I continue to be surprised by the demand! Although they do seem to be staying in the shops a few hours longer than before, so maybe demand is slowing. Or maybe people just are not hearing about the availability so quickly!

It may be because I'm a higher level sort of person who likes a machine to work out of the box - I'm certainly not the Zero's major use case!
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Re: PI Zero

Wed Mar 23, 2016 4:17 pm

SDIO WiFi
What's SDIO WiFi?

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Re: PI Zero

Wed Mar 23, 2016 4:19 pm

they do seem to be staying in the shops a few hours longer than before
Nope = PiHut lasted 1 hours before selling out yesterday - Pimoroni just lasted a bit longer this time as no-one was expecting any and had give up checking the website!

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Re: PI Zero

Wed Mar 23, 2016 4:25 pm

Jim JKla wrote: Unfortunately the wi-fi radio is adding to the heat death to quote Larry Niven "TANSTAFL". :shock:
That was Robert A. Heinlein in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.

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