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Re: Western Digital jumps onto the Pi BandWagon

Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:20 am

PMI wrote:This does not look like a new product at all.
case, $59 for a 1TB drive on amazon or bestbuy.com.
There is also a single-platter 500GB version, so the 314GB bare drive looks like a crippled 500GB drive, albeit at a decent discount
. The last thing anyone needs is more cables and another wall-wart... :roll:
If the 500 gig drive goes for $59 and the 314 gig drive goes for $31.42 with free shipping, it isn't just a discount, it's probably the right move. I would go for the smallest drive with the best price per gig. If you can get two of the pi drives for right about what the 500 gig single drive goes for, you'll have two spindles which means that if one breaks, the other probably will be there for back up.

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Re: Western Digital jumps onto the Pi BandWagon

Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:37 am

stderr wrote:If you can get two of the pi drives for right about what the 500 gig single drive goes for, you'll have two spindles which means that if one breaks, the other probably will be there for back up.
I like the "probably".

The only time in my life when I've ever relied on having just one backup to keep me safe, both hard drives went TU within 48 hours of each other and I lost everything. A backup isn't a backup until it's backed up. :D
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Re: Western Digital jumps onto the Pi BandWagon

Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:06 pm

GTR2Fan wrote:I like the "probably".

The only time in my life when I've ever relied on having just one backup to keep me safe, both hard drives went TU within 48 hours of each other and I lost everything.
If you think about what a hard drive is and what it is doing in operating, if you think about that for a while, you will likely conclude, no way, that's impossible.

With so much that could seem to go wrong with something that should be impossible, I've even argued for using two different brand/model drives because you just never know when a problem with manufacturing will affect all or many of the drives made at a certain time and place. This has absolutely happened and it looks like it might've also happened to you given your example.
A backup isn't a backup until it's backed up. :D
Data is getting so large that it's hard to back up like that if you aren't careful about what you are backing up. But I would agree, an online back up of the running system and an offline one too. While you are at it, archive on burnt DVD for long term.

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Re: Western Digital jumps onto the Pi BandWagon

Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:27 pm

There may be more to WD's move; Tech Republic (part of ZDnet which has zillions of users) just published a photo-spread article on building the DIY Pi-Top... is there room for WD in that picture?
:arrow: http://www.techrepublic.com/article/pi- ... -on-the-go

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Re: Western Digital jumps onto the Pi BandWagon

Mon Mar 21, 2016 6:32 pm

I got a look at one yesterday. While the Pi-related features may not be worth it to you...
I have not seen one, except what WD put into their news releases last week.

I am not at all sure there are any Pi-related features, besides Pie day and a discount.

If, for example, the power management in the drive has been altered, so that during both startup and normal operation the drive does not exceed the RPi power allowance per USB port, then the complex cable is not needed.

I have not seen a picture of a case, but I am looking forward to hearing more about it, :)
(or seeing a photo)

WD has a proven record for making reliable drives (IMO), which I use and like, both in personal use and work. I have used WD "Blue" (2.5") "Black"(2.5 and 3.5"), and "Red" (3.5") drives for years. unfortunately, Western Digital does not excel in marketing and information distribution (again, IMO).

If the cable is needed, because the drive EXCEEDS the power allowance of even the newest Pi, then you may as well use a WD Passport (another product I like) for $59/1TB retail, and a USB hub, or a Y-cable, or any one of the other solutions people are using now.

As for USB 3, the drives inside the WD Passport have had this for a long time.

RPS (reduced power spinup), and a list of WD drives with their typical and maximum startup current listed, would surely be of interest to RPi owners, and increase interest in Western Digital 2.5" drives in this community, and help sell more WD drives, even without a Pie-day gimmick, and without resorting to RC cars to attract attention (again, IMO... :mrgreen: )

See example article:
http://archive.techarp.com/showarticlee ... 665&pgno=3

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Re: Western Digital jumps onto the Pi BandWagon

Tue Mar 22, 2016 6:37 am

PMI wrote: WD has a proven record for making reliable drives (IMO), which I use and like, both in personal use and work. I have used WD "Blue" (2.5") "Black"(2.5 and 3.5"), and "Red" (3.5") drives for years. unfortunately, Western Digital does not excel in marketing and information distribution (again, IMO).
Isn't the 314GB at $31.42 extremely good marketing?

I know it's cheesy to cripple the firmare of a 500GB drive down to a multiple of pi and sell it for a price that's also a multiple of pi, but it's worked hook, line & sinker for me. If I didn't already have my B+ with a USB hard drive, I'd soon have a B+ with a 314GB drive. If I find a need to add a hard drive to another Raspberry I know which make I'm buying.

I think Western Digital have completely grasped the Raspberry Pi (including the compute module) and are creating some very desirable products to support it.
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Re: Western Digital jumps onto the Pi BandWagon

Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:45 am

PMI wrote:
I got a look at one yesterday. While the Pi-related features may not be worth it to you...
I have not seen one, except what WD put into their news releases last week.

I am not at all sure there are any Pi-related features, besides Pie day and a discount.
From the front page blog :
Dave Chew says:

20th Mar 2016 at 1:59 am

Hi, the goals of the 314GB drive were: (1) reduce peak current draw; (2) achieve a price aligned to RPi versus legacy applications/markets (e.g. laptops); (3) improve Pi user’s data reliability experience (data integrity and powering); (4) simplify mass-storage integration (eliminate the need for a USB hub in many/most cases and provide special version of Berryboot multi-OS loader) and; (5) launch on 3/14/16!

The drive is as follows:
>Same hardware as our 500GB USB HDD in WD Passport products. Very mature, very high-yielding technology and components.
>Servo firmware changes to reduce peak spin-up current (slower spin-up). Relaxed time-to-ready requirement versus Wintel laptop HDD requirements.
>Set the magnetic recording format (tracks-per-inch vs. bits-per-inch, the aspect ratio of the magnetic bit on the disk) to be optimized around lower capacity versus 500GB, including biasing format selection (factory optimization) to the lowest BPI formats. This reduces R/W channel electronics operating speed/load, which minimizes channel power demand during read/write.
>Force the SATA phy (integrated in the HDD SoC) to operate at 1.5GHz so it won’t negotiate to higher-speed operation (minimize phy power consumption).
>Maintain all factory in-process testing and criteria as normal 500GB product.

The result is reduced peak current demand, and very likely, improvement in magnetic data integrity margin (because the 500GB components are operating at relaxed areal density)- though we aren’t claiming enhanced reliability versus our standard product and our warranty is the same.
Various male/female 40- and 26-way GPIO header for sale here ( IDEAL FOR YOUR PiZero ):
https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=93&t=147682#p971555

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Re: Western Digital jumps onto the Pi BandWagon

Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:31 am

PMI wrote: If the cable is needed, because the drive EXCEEDS the power allowance of even the newest Pi, then you may as well use a WD Passport (another product I like) for $59/1TB retail, and a USB hub, or a Y-cable, or any one of the other solutions people are using now.
The reason behind the cable is that you only need one power supply and don't need to care about how much current your other USB devices need. Esentially you get 500mA more current budget on the other USB ports. You can even use this drive/cable on a Pi 1B rev1, which only supports 100mA per port due to the polyfuses on the UDB ports.

Regards
Aydan

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Re: Western Digital jumps onto the Pi BandWagon

Tue Mar 22, 2016 4:27 pm

Thanks for the comments. I did not see the Blog post referenced above, but it confirms what I guessed.
DougieLawson wrote:Isn't the 314GB at $31.42 extremely good marketing?
I hope so, because WD is a company I basically like. However, people may start looking at it more closely after they buy it and start using it.

The 1 TB Pi drive kit was a respectable offering at a somewhat inflated price, compared to the price of the same drive in a WD Passport, which has to sell in a more price sensitive market. The 314G drive, not so much (by the time you buy the cable etc...)

Reduced Power Spinup is years old, and a good idea at the time, because it was jumper-selectable. See link and the graph below, note the right-most column.

http://www.wdc.com/wdproducts/library/o ... 001116.pdf

Reducing the data rate at the platter, AND at the interface just ensures that the drive will perform very poorly when someone gets tired of waiting on the Pi USB bus and decides to plug the thing into a PC or a laptop... surprise!
DougieLawson wrote:I know it's cheesy to cripple the firmare of a 500GB drive down to a multiple of pi and sell it for a price that's also a multiple of pi...
That is probably a more diplomatic way to put it, yes, ;)
Attachments
wd_blue_ultraslim_500gb_power_values.png
WD "Blue" power v. "UltraSlim" power
wd_blue_ultraslim_500gb_power_values.png (23.62 KiB) Viewed 5014 times

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Re: Western Digital jumps onto the Pi BandWagon

Tue Mar 22, 2016 6:34 pm

Diagram showing the RPS (reduced power spinup) jumper position on existing WD 2.5" drives, from the WD knowledge base:

Source:
http://support.wdc.com/KnowledgeBase/answer.aspx?ID=981

So, it looks like one can reduce the startup current on one of the more common 500GB and 1TB drives with the addition of a jumper.

Diagram:
Attachments
wd_blue_jumper_settings.jpg
wd_blue_jumper_settings.jpg (49.89 KiB) Viewed 4965 times

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Re: Western Digital jumps onto the Pi BandWagon

Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:07 am

PMI wrote:This does not look like a new product at all. Western Digital hard drives with native USB 3.0 ports can be found in the WD Passport, which is an external HD with native USB and a nice case, $59 for a 1TB drive on amazon or bestbuy.com.

There is also a single-platter 500GB version, so the 314GB bare drive looks like a crippled 500GB drive, albeit at a decent discount (for now). There is not much demand for the 500GB drive elsewhere, since the WD Passport 1TB version is only about $10 more than the 500GB.

Intellipower, and/or RPS (Reduced Power Spinup) can already be found in some WD laptop and small NAS drives. RPS is pretty old hat at that (1)

All anyone needs to do is search for which WD products have "native USB", and which ones have reduced power on start or intellipower (many like the WD5000LPVT and WD5000LPVX are reasonably priced). There is plenty of information on the web already.

This to me looks like a marketing exercise, not a new product at all, and definitely no need for a complicated cable harness or a special power supply. The last thing anyone needs is more cables and another wall-wart... :roll:
viewtopic.php?f=63&t=140386#p935819 WD explain why and wherefore !!!
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Re: Western Digital jumps onto the Pi BandWagon

Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:45 pm

Anyone know of a more reasonably-priced alternative to the WD-specific cable for $9.99? I can't see the connector(s) with sufficient detail in the teensy photo on the WD site, and I don't have any WD drives from this series. Is the connector not a more typical SATA connector because this type of drive is made for mobile applications?

Will this cable work for power and data:
http://www.amazon.com/Bargains-Products ... B00D5FPD2M
Image
Larger version of the photo:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/6 ... L1500_.jpg
Thanks!
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Re: Western Digital jumps onto the Pi BandWagon

Sun Mar 27, 2016 4:00 pm

The drive has the wide USB3 micro-USB B receptacle, but you can plug the narrower USB2 micro-USB B in, filling the bigger of the socket's two lobes.

You will already have such a cable - it's the sort you'd power a Pi with.

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Re: Western Digital jumps onto the Pi BandWagon

Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:42 pm

Ordered a pidrive on 3/15. Didn't get a shipping confirmation. Called on 3/24, Western Digital Support said they would call back; didn't. Called yesterday and asked two people for any kind of e-mail. Today received this:

"Due to high demand, we are currently on back-order for the WD PiDrive 314GB. Your order may take up to 3-4 weeks to ship. We are working diligently to get orders out as soon as possible. We will send you an email notification as soon as the product ships. "

No indication of Back-order when purchased. If I hadn't of purchased the cable on 3/16 (wasn't available on 3/15) I would have canceled this order. WD is not making me a happy customer.

Hope this information helps someone.

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Re: Western Digital jumps onto the Pi BandWagon

Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:45 am

energyi wrote:Ordered a pidrive on 3/15. Didn't get a shipping confirmation. Called on 3/24, Western Digital Support said they would call back; didn't. Called yesterday and asked two people for any kind of e-mail. Today received this:

"Due to high demand, we are currently on back-order for the WD PiDrive 314GB. Your order may take up to 3-4 weeks to ship. We are working diligently to get orders out as soon as possible. We will send you an email notification as soon as the product ships. "

No indication of Back-order when purchased. If I hadn't of purchased the cable on 3/16 (wasn't available on 3/15) I would have canceled this order. WD is not making me a happy customer.

Hope this information helps someone.

energyi
I got one of those e-mails today. I look at it as one with supply problems that have been seen with Pi introductions. /shrug

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Re: Western Digital jumps onto the Pi BandWagon

Wed Mar 30, 2016 2:15 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:I got one of those e-mails today. I look at it as one with supply problems that have been seen with Pi introductions. /shrug
Except this time it's a many billion dollar company. It's interesting though that they didn't expect this sort of demand, you know, undercutting your bigger drives on a per gig basis, selling at what must be near cost, making it plug and play with a device that has sold millions of instances and doesn't have a decent hard drive solution. I don't think a pocket calculator with reverse polish notation is needed to figure this out, just get an old envelope or even one of those blow in cards they used to include with magazines back when people bought them: It's going to be a blow out seller.

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Re: Western Digital jumps onto the Pi BandWagon

Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:10 am

stderr wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote:I got one of those e-mails today. I look at it as one with supply problems that have been seen with Pi introductions. /shrug
Except this time it's a many billion dollar company. It's interesting though that they didn't expect this sort of demand, you know, undercutting your bigger drives on a per gig basis, selling at what must be near cost, making it plug and play with a device that has sold millions of instances and doesn't have a decent hard drive solution. I don't think a pocket calculator with reverse polish notation is needed to figure this out, just get an old envelope or even one of those blow in cards they used to include with magazines back when people bought them: It's going to be a blow out seller.
I agree with your analysis (and I've made the same one myself in reaction to WDs "problem"). Perhaps they gauged the sales of the drive (and remember that the $31,42 price is an *introductory* sale price...the regular price is about $45) by what may have been the response the SATA adapter (really, carrier board for the CM). I suspect this drive will actually be of more use for boards like the Roseapple Pi which has a USB3 port and will be able to get a lot more performance out of it. I will be benchmarking the PiDrive when I get it, but I'm not expecting particularly great performance since it will be running on the USB2 bus.

I've already tested the WD SATA board (CM) with a SATA-III SSD. Read and write speeds are around 25MB/s, and file copying (so both reading and writing) came in at 10.7 MB/s. A mechanical drive (aka "spinning rust") is hardly going to do better, though it may not do much worse since the major constraint is the USB2 bus. More memory on newer Pis is more likely to boost performance. To that end, as soon as the CM3 is released, I'll be testing the WD SATA adapter with that.

One reason I will be interested to see how the PiDrive works on an actual USB3 port is that I also benchmarked a Cubieboard 2 (Allwinner A20, dual core Cortex-A7 at 1GHz with 1GB RAM, or roughly a half-sized Pi2) connected to a SATA-II SSD on a native SATA-II port and got 46MB/s write, 164MB/s read, and 30MB/s copy speed. So...interface speed is a big, big factor here.

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Re: Western Digital jumps onto the Pi BandWagon

Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:30 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
energyi wrote:Ordered a pidrive on 3/15. Didn't get a shipping confirmation. Called on 3/24, Western Digital Support said they would call back; didn't. Called yesterday and asked two people for any kind of e-mail. Today received this:

"Due to high demand, we are currently on back-order for the WD PiDrive 314GB. Your order may take up to 3-4 weeks to ship. We are working diligently to get orders out as soon as possible. We will send you an email notification as soon as the product ships. "
I got one of those e-mails today. I look at it as one with supply problems that have been seen with Pi introductions. /shrug
Just checked my e-mail, and Lo and Behold...a shipping notice from WD.

Given that they ship from Irvine (a bit south of Los Angeles), IIRC, I should have it in a couple of days.

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Re: Western Digital jumps onto the Pi BandWagon

Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:16 pm

Jim Manley wrote:Anyone know of a more reasonably-priced alternative to the WD-specific cable for $9.99?
what is interesting is that in EU store the cable alone and the kit with same cable and AC adapter costs the same 8.99 EUR
http://store.wdc.com/store?Action=Displ ... x=0&Go.y=0
I wouldn't buy the cable but with the adapter it is reasonable.
Edit: when clicking the link in new window it goes tu UK version which shows different prices in GBP but when selecting 'rest of EU' in country selector the price in EUR for kit and cable is same.

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Re: Western Digital jumps onto the Pi BandWagon

Mon Apr 04, 2016 1:56 am

While waiting, I decided to adapt my audio project case to add a disk drive. Still missing some hardware bits and pieces, but yesterday I finally managed to fit the parts together (using a different USB drive).

Since this was supposed to be a headless music player (when I started), the board on top is a HiFiBerry I2S DAC, a.k.a. a hat dac.
Layer1c_disk.JPG
Bottom layer, disk drive
Layer1c_disk.JPG (59.63 KiB) Viewed 4265 times
Layer2c_Pi_and_DAC+.JPG
Middle layer, Pi and DAC board
Layer2c_Pi_and_DAC+.JPG (59.39 KiB) Viewed 4265 times
Layer3c_cover.JPG
Cover
Layer3c_cover.JPG (50.74 KiB) Viewed 4265 times

energyi
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Re: Western Digital jumps onto the Pi BandWagon

Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:59 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
energyi wrote:Ordered a pidrive on 3/15. Didn't get a shipping confirmation. Called on 3/24, Western Digital Support said they would call back; didn't. Called yesterday and asked two people for any kind of e-mail. Today received this:

"Due to high demand, we are currently on back-order for the WD PiDrive 314GB. Your order may take up to 3-4 weeks to ship. We are working diligently to get orders out as soon as possible. We will send you an email notification as soon as the product ships. "

No indication of Back-order when purchased. If I hadn't of purchased the cable on 3/16 (wasn't available on 3/15) I would have canceled this order. WD is not making me a happy customer.

Hope this information helps someone.

energyi
I got one of those e-mails today. I look at it as one with supply problems that have been seen with Pi introductions. /shrug
Update: WD Pidrive arrived on Monday. Diags showed 292 Gbytes, not 314. Tried to run the fix size program from WD but no success. Someone else might want to try and report back, I may not have the skillsets.

BerryBoot seems OK, but you can't put your own IMG's without converting them to squashfs format which is a total pain in the butt! Almost makes Berryboot useless. I like backing up my system to a dated IMG in case something goes wrong. Takes lots of time to get Pi working just right. Would be nice to have all OS at fingertips without squashfs format requirements, like if Win32DiskImager did it.

As always, thanks for the discussion and forum.

energyi
energyi

Aydan
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Re: Western Digital jumps onto the Pi BandWagon

Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:17 pm

Diags showed 292 Gbytes, not 314
You do know that HDD vendors state size in SI GB (1000^3 Bytes) not GiB (1024^3).
So 314 GB = 292GiB 314/(1.024**3)=292

So everything is correct size wise.

Regards
Aydan

stderr
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Re: Western Digital jumps onto the Pi BandWagon

Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:41 pm

Aydan wrote:
Diags showed 292 Gbytes, not 314
You do know that HDD vendors state size in SI GB (1000^3 Bytes) not GiB (1024^3).
So 314 GB = 292GiB 314/(1.024**3)=292
So everything is correct size wise.
Can you even imagine the discussions that went on at WD about this? So let's sell a drive with 314 gig so it celebrates the rasp pi and is really cool. People will talk about this, I'm super excited! We have a 500 gig drive we are starting out with and can derate it to basically whatever we want. Maybe we need it around 2/3rds original to get the derating to work like we want. Now, should we make it 314 hard drive manufacturers gigs, which will not report 314 gig in most operating systems, or should we use the operating system gigs so that people will see the actual 314? Think about this, I bet being a fly on the wall would be hilarious. Of course they want to use the real, er, the operating system gigs, that makes the little show work. But they just can't because that would set a precedent for all their other drives. People will ask, if you could do that for the pi, why are you messing with us with all your other drives? And people would be right, and, of course, those other drives are operating at much closer to their max spec, no option to just make them bigger, so suddenly they'd have to call their drives, all of them, some size smaller than other makers use for the same technology. I've read Kafka, so I'm not sure I'd really want to be a bug, but just for a short time on the WD wall, maybe.

energyi
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Re: Western Digital jumps onto the Pi BandWagon

Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:46 am

Forgot to show the packaging that the drive came in, note drive at the bottom of the image.
pidrive_wd_packaging_sm.jpg
WD Packaging for pidrive
pidrive_wd_packaging_sm.jpg (34.74 KiB) Viewed 4000 times
energyi
PS: SSD Hat is probably the right way to go.
energyi

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