fruitoftheloom
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Re: Future gpu upgrades

Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:07 am

spock wrote:couldn't they just use a completely new SOC and put the old one onto the board too for backward compatibility? :) that would be cool. :)

isn't this what they did with the playstation 2? it contained the complete playstation 1 hardware.
I believe you need to undertake research before posting :?
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GTR2Fan
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Re: Future gpu upgrades

Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:23 am

As it's unusual to find a current 40nm VC4 that doesn't run happily at 500MHz, a die-shrink to 28nm could get us up to around 750MHz in theory. I realise that we'd still be stuck with the same feature-set, but I wonder how the cost of that would compare to a complete redesign from the ground up whilst still attempting to maintain 100% backwards compatibility.
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mimi123
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Re: Future gpu upgrades

Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:01 pm

ric96 wrote:*secretly hopes for a VC5*
the VC5 exists, and has OpenGL ES 3.0 support

oryxhasapi
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Re: Future gpu upgrades

Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:04 pm

mimi123 wrote:
ric96 wrote:*secretly hopes for a VC5*
the VC5 exists, and has OpenGL ES 3.0 support
take all information with a pinch of salt there is no way to know if you are an offical broadcom employee

spock
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Re: Future gpu upgrades

Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:08 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:I believe you need to undertake research before posting :?
what do you mean?

it's true:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStati ... ifications
In addition, the console can play audio CDs and DVD movies, and is backwardly compatible with original PlayStation (PS1) games. This backward compatibility is accomplished through the inclusion of the original PlayStation's CPU which also serves as the PS2's I/O processor.
i thought this thread is about fun speculation? we won't get any official answer from the foundation and i am aware that my idea has problems. it's probably too expensive and complicated, would make the board too crowded,... :)

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Future gpu upgrades

Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:28 pm

spock wrote:
fruitoftheloom wrote:I believe you need to undertake research before posting :?
what do you mean?

it's true:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStati ... ifications
In addition, the console can play audio CDs and DVD movies, and is backwardly compatible with original PlayStation (PS1) games. This backward compatibility is accomplished through the inclusion of the original PlayStation's CPU which also serves as the PS2's I/O processor.
i thought this thread is about fun speculation? we won't get any official answer from the foundation and i am aware that my idea has problems. it's probably too expensive and complicated, would make the board too crowded,... :)
Sincere apologies left half my response of :oops: , the PS used a " traditional" CPU and GPU model as do most SBC 's, therefore it was 'reasonably' easy to implement incorporating a I/O \CPU Chipset.

The RPi actually boots from the Video Core 4 Video Processing Unit ( VPU), the original VC1 did not have an ARM CPU attached, which makes it more complex to use the PS solution..

http://wiki.beyondlogic.org/index.php?t ... ot_Process
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jamesh
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Re: Future gpu upgrades

Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:59 pm

Thread cleaned of non-GPU related posts.
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Re: Future gpu upgrades

Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:56 pm

hippy wrote: The Pi may ( probably will ) lose ground to some alternatives in the future but it should still be able to hold its own in the market it is targeted at, and particularly as its success is about much more than just hardware.
So long as the RPF leads in software support and development, it will likely continue to dominate the non-professional SBC market. In a comparison chart of the Pi3B, Odroid-C2, and PINE64+ (all using quad-core A53 SoCs) one thing that stood out is that while the current RPF release is a 4.4 kernel, with 4.5 being worked on, the other two board are 3.14 or 3.10. The RPF is in a position where success breeds success.

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Re: Future gpu upgrades

Thu Mar 03, 2016 7:34 pm

I am pretty sure the Foundation will stick with the VC4, even if it costs a pile of money to extend it or whatever. Reason being, they have hired Eric Anholt to do the drivers. Imagine the conversation if the 2838 popped out next year with Mali or something:

Foundation: Well, we have got this new 2838, so all the VC4 stuff is going to be outdated pretty soon.
Anholt: But I am not finished! So many bugs to fix in the drivers! Need at least another year!
Foundation: Woohoo Mali!
Broadcom: Wait we invested piles of money to employ this guy and we don't even have a finished driver?!
etc.

Besides, unless a different gpu can be more open source than the VC4, I doubt any changes will happen, as Eben has already said: We want to make the Pi more open, not less.

...then again he has made a lot of other promises so YMMV.

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Re: Future gpu upgrades

Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:25 pm

I'm liking the PlayStation solution thus far.
note: I may or may not know what I'm talking about...

ejolson
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Re: Future gpu upgrades

Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:41 pm

toxibunny wrote:I'm liking the PlayStation solution thus far.
It does seem like possible to keep VC4 while adding another incompatible GPU to the SOC. The VC4 could then be used to run the desktop and user interface while the faster GPU could be used to accelerate video playback and games. Presumably the hardware would be designed so software that wasn't written for the other GPU still runs as if the VC4 were the only device available.

At the present time, the gains made by having a reliable and efficient open source driver for Linux far outweigh any hardware disadvantages compared to the other GPUs.

fsck
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Re: Future gpu upgrades

Fri Mar 04, 2016 1:23 am

Broadcom still retain various members of the old V3D team (both HW & SW) (though I wouldn't care to speculate exactly what it is they're working on).

The real problem is all of the stuff on top of V3D that makes up VideoCore, e.g. the camera stuff. If Broadcom make a new chip with an updated V3D it almost certainly won't include the rest of VideoCore.[/quote]
The only camera sensor that works with the Pi is out of production already.
GregAC wrote:Ultimately the pi will want a GPU upgrade at some point. They'll want to retain backwards compatability and avoid major software changes which points towards retaining VideoCore but with improvements. However this requires Broadcom to produce the appropriate chip.
Whatever the choice for the next GPU is better have complete openness as a requirement. It took over four years to get to the still incoplete, alpha stage drivers we have now, and it was all burdened upon basically one person...

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Re: Future gpu upgrades

Fri Mar 04, 2016 4:46 am

fsck wrote:Whatever the choice for the next GPU is better have complete openness as a requirement. It took over four years to get to the still incoplete, alpha stage drivers we have now, and it was all burdened upon basically one person...
Given the advances in speech recognition made possible by neural networks on GPUs and the GPU-like hardware being used to construct autonomous cars, it is clear that GPU programming is applicable to much more than scientific computing and games. If the GPU on the Pi were user programmable, this would help teach how to program the next generation of intelligent devices. It would also open up many embedded applications that are currently beyond the computing power of even the newest ARM CPUs.

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Re: Future gpu upgrades

Fri Mar 04, 2016 10:44 am

Whatever the choice for the next GPU is better have complete openness as a requirement. It took over four years to get to the still incoplete, alpha stage
Full GPU documentation has been available for two years - http://www.broadcom.com/support/videocore

I'd also note that source for an EGL driver has been available for the same amount of time. Eric Anholt's driver is GL and will be better performing but it isn't required for you to play with the GPU to your heart's content.

I was actually working on a Metal/Vulcan like thing for Raspberry Pi. An API that would allow you to contruct command lists for V3D to give you direct bare metal GPU control. Didn't get very far and haven't touched it for a while but what I've done so far is available here - https://github.com/GregAC/rpi-v3d. It's got a python script that generates some C for creating/disassembling command lists and a small program that can disassemble command lists and QPU programs in memory (I could freeze Quake 3 in the debugger and diassemble the command list for the frame including dumping the shader programs). Might pick it up again soon, had grand plans to replace the Q3 rendering back end with a direct to V3D command list version ;)

No other mobile GPU has such documentation freely available (though I think AMD and Intel release similar stuff for their desktop parts).

Sadly the rest of VideoCore hasn't been opened up in the same way. Would be nice to get open VPU documentation :)
If the GPU on the Pi were user programmable, this would help teach how to program the next generation of intelligent devices. It would also open up many embedded applications that are currently beyond the computing power of even the newest ARM CPUs.
It is, documentation available above. I know various people have been playing with GPGPU using the QPUs. I'd also note that whilst an interesting/useful thing to play with using the QPUs doesn't suddenly make the raspberry pi massively more powerful.

Still it compares favourably to the A53s. They can manage 4 32-bit floating point operations per cycle. So with 4 cores at 1.2 Ghz = 19.2 GFlops peak (actual practical max will be lower as you need load/store/branch/increment operations along with all those floating point at the very least, plus cache misses etc). I remember VC4 V3D being quoted as 24 GFlops peak, with the bump to 300 MHz from 250 MHz that gives you 28.8 GFlops peak.

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Re: Future gpu upgrades

Fri Mar 04, 2016 10:48 am

The only camera sensor that works with the Pi is out of production already.
In this podcast Eben briefly discusses this: http://thepipodcast.com/the-pi-podcast- ... ben-upton/

I remember him saying they've got a large stock of the old sensor. When they run out they've already identified a replacement.

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Re: Future gpu upgrades

Sun Mar 06, 2016 5:35 pm

oryxhasapi wrote:
mimi123 wrote:
ric96 wrote:*secretly hopes for a VC5*
the VC5 exists, and has OpenGL ES 3.0 support
take all information with a pinch of salt there is no way to know if you are an offical broadcom employee
There was a score officially pushed to FutureMark.

OpenGL ES 3.0
Platform: "STB"
Broadcom VideoCore V HW
V3D-500
CPU: "Scorpion" ARMv7

As I think that there is no way to have GLES3 on BCM(VC4) SoCs, I think that it's real

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Re: Future gpu upgrades

Sun Mar 06, 2016 5:54 pm

IIRC, the VC5 3D block was the only part of the VC5 that was complete when Brcm shut down the VC dev team. The camera system was certainly not finished, neither was the new encoder block.
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Re: Future gpu upgrades

Sun Mar 06, 2016 8:45 pm

jamesh wrote:IIRC, the VC5 3D block was the only part of the VC5 that was complete when Brcm shut down the VC dev team. The camera system was certainly not finished, neither was the new encoder block.
"Complete" would be slightly overstating things. It had been delivered in a chip, but there was still a fair amount of work to be done. 3D was the only area that Broadcom kept alive after the axe fell, although it was still slimmed down.
You're correct that It was the only block that had been realised - all the rest had only be tested in simulation or FPGA.
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Re: Future gpu upgrades

Sun Mar 13, 2016 10:00 pm

ejolson wrote:At the present time, the gains made by having a reliable and efficient open source driver for Linux far outweigh any hardware disadvantages compared to the other GPUs.
That hits the nail on the head. They would be mad to get rid of Videocore with everything else on ARM being so proprietary. Considering the Pi is primarily an education device, being the most open source ARM device and thus the most study-able/hackable is a worthy goal.
jamesh wrote:There are a number of options, all expensive (going to 28nm would be very very expensive). Adding gig ethernet, improving the memory controller, adding USB 3, adding quads (not necessarily an improvement interestingly) etc. All possible, al expensive.
Yeah the USB3 would be fantastic, I am guessing it would solve the ethernet problem also. Networking-type devices and clustering are areas where Linux has traditionally been strong and a £30 Pi with USB3 or Gigabit Ethernet would be a really powerful offer. For me, having this would outweigh a GPU upgrade.
jamesh wrote:I'm sure Eben is on the case!
Yeah they seem to years ahead of us outsiders and keep giving us nice surprises (especially in February!).

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Re: Future gpu upgrades

Sun Mar 13, 2016 10:17 pm

My guess is that the only way the foundation could maintain backwards compatibility with the GPU in the BCM283x chips is to have a BCM283x on board as some sort of coprocessor. I suspect what will actually happen is that GPU compatibility will be broken when the GPU is replaced. The foundation will port across software required for their education mission, and perhaps provide enough to get others going with porting to the new platform but that will be it. So the question then becomes - what GPU should the next generation Pi have? My personal preference would be Mali since it is also ARM designed, which gives you flexibility in terms of whose chip you buy.

I suppose another question would be: if we are breaking GPU compatibility, do we want to break other compatibility if that is what is required to keep the platform moving forward, or should we stick with Broadcom and evolve the BCM283x line, albeit with a different GPU?

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Re: Future gpu upgrades

Tue Mar 15, 2016 8:20 am

At the present time, the gains made by having a reliable and efficient open source driver for Linux far outweigh any hardware disadvantages compared to the other GPUs.
yes!

more important than a gpu upgrade would be a soc upgrade.

how expensive would it be to improve the memory controller to support more than 1gb of ram?

how expensive would it be to make it support usb3 (which would also enable gbit lan)?

will it be affordable for the raspberry pi foundation if the raspberry pi 3 sells a lot?

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Re: Future gpu upgrades

Tue Mar 15, 2016 11:12 am

spock wrote:
At the present time, the gains made by having a reliable and efficient open source driver for Linux far outweigh any hardware disadvantages compared to the other GPUs.
yes!

more important than a gpu upgrade would be a soc upgrade.

how expensive would it be to improve the memory controller to support more than 1gb of ram?

how expensive would it be to make it support usb3 (which would also enable gbit lan)?

will it be affordable for the raspberry pi foundation if the raspberry pi 3 sells a lot?
A few million dollars. Affordable, dunno.
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Re: Future gpu upgrades

Tue Mar 15, 2016 11:21 am

spock wrote:more important than a gpu upgrade would be a soc upgrade.

how expensive would it be to improve the memory controller to support more than 1gb of ram?

how expensive would it be to make it support usb3 (which would also enable gbit lan)?
All of this can already be very easily achieved by buying hardware that's suitable to your specific needs in the first place.
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