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Re: RPi 3 SoC at nearly 100 °C, reporting 80 °C

Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:44 am

I would suggest that any processor load test should not depend on access to files or network etc. This introduces a lot of unknowns and variability into the test. SD cards vary considerably in the speed for example, thus the amount of actual CPU work time will vary from case to case. As such a large compilation is not a good test load.

A simple "while(1) {}" loop would be better. Although one might want to have some calculations going on in there to exercise more transistors.
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Re: RPi 3 SoC at nearly 100 °C, reporting 80 °C

Wed Mar 09, 2016 8:02 am

Heater wrote:I would suggest that any processor load test should not depend on access to files or network etc. This introduces a lot of unknowns and variability into the test. SD cards vary considerably in the speed for example, thus the amount of actual CPU work time will vary from case to case. As such a large compilation is not a good test load.

A simple "while(1) {}" loop would be better. Although one might want to have some calculations going on in there to exercise more transistors.
Well, different CPU instructions have vastly different power consumption. And a simple "while(1) {}" test is a rather bad example because it is less power hungry than a lot of real applications! As an alternative, you can try running something like this on your board:

Code: Select all

wget https://raw.githubusercontent.com/ssvb/cpuburn-arm/master/cpuburn-a53.S
gcc -o cpuburn-a53 cpuburn-a53.S
./cpuburn-a53
This is essentially just an unrolled while loop, filled with power hungry NEON instructions which are interleaved with conditional branches and unaligned loads to keep the dual-issue CPU pipeline busy.

There is a rather interesting result from the ODROID-C2 board here: http://forum.odroid.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 39#p127798
It shows that the ODROID-C2 board gets throttled to 1.3GHz when running cpuburn-a53 (down from 2GHz), but other than this it survives the test perfectly fine. Less intensive CPU loads (such as parallel GCC builds) can run at the full 2GHz speed without any need for throttling.

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Re: RPi 3 SoC at nearly 100 °C, reporting 80 °C

Wed Mar 09, 2016 8:07 am

Exactly.

Now what about getting the GPU warmed up as well?
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Re: RPi 3 SoC at nearly 100 °C, reporting 80 °C

Wed Mar 09, 2016 8:12 am

GTR2Fan wrote:I can go along with the emissivity argument (even if you can't spell aluminium ;)), but how do you explain the 'white hot' area around the heatsink being larger than on the non-heatsinked board? Shouldn't the heatsink be radiating heat away from the board, not towards it?
Heater wrote:@loverpi
...the heatsinks reduce the SoC temperature by around 40C...
I would imagine the heat sink must do something.

To my simple mind if the source of heat, the SoC, were 40C cooler I'd expect the surrounding board area to be cooler as well. You thermal images do not show any such effect, The is the same "white hot" over the same area.

It does not add up. I might be convinced if you repeated the experiment, starting from a cold Pi in each case.
The two thermal camera images loverpi provided are using the same colour scale for their min/max temperatures. Look at the temperature readings in the two different images: the "white hot" area in the second picture is only 127°F (78.8°C) whereas it's 207°F (97.2°C) in the first image - that's a reduction of 80°F. (The other reported temperature only differs by ~3°F, which is not significant.) The fact that the same colour is used to represent the scale in both images doesn't mean that the white area in the second image is "as hot as" the white area in the first image - it means that the white area in the second image is the hottest part of the second image, and the white area in the first image is the hottest part of the first image.

Thermal imaging can be very misleading, you need to understand the scale that the colours represent. In this case the scale is represented by the temperature readings on each separate image.

FWIW the same criticisms were raised with Gareth Halfacree's first set of thermal images - they used the same colour scale to represent different temperature gradients - but he's since corrected that by using the same colour scale in all images. I can't access reddit or the bit-tech forum at work, so I can't get a link to the updated images - they might be in the reddit link in the OP.

If loverpi's thermal camera is capable of fixing the colour scale as ghalfacree's Flir camera is, perhaps an updated set of images with a fixed colour gradient might help to illustrate the reduction in temperature.

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Re: RPi 3 SoC at nearly 100 °C, reporting 80 °C

Wed Mar 09, 2016 8:52 am

Good point about the colour scale.

Looking at loverpi's thermal images again it looks to me like the without heat sink hot spot is on the SoC itself. 207F.

Meanwhile the with heat sink hot spot is on the board beside the SoC. 127F.

We would expect quite a large difference in temperature between SoC and board even if the heat sink did nothing.

All in all the images don't say much.
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Re: RPi 3 SoC at nearly 100 °C, reporting 80 °C

Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:18 am

Heater wrote:Good point about the colour scale.

Looking at loverpi's thermal images again it looks to me like the without heat sink hot spot is on the SoC itself. 207C.

Meanwhile the with heat sink hot spot is on the board beside the SoC. 127C.

We would expect quite a large difference in temperature between SoC and board even if the heat sink did nothing.

All in all the images don't say much.
https://imgur.com/a/WqK2T <- scaled the same
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Re: RPi 3 SoC at nearly 100 °C, reporting 80 °C

Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:24 am

Heater wrote:Good point about the colour scale.

Looking at loverpi's thermal images again it looks to me like the without heat sink hot spot is on the SoC itself. 207C.

Meanwhile the with heat sink hot spot is on the board beside the SoC. 127C.

We would expect quite a large difference in temperature between SoC and board even if the heat sink did nothing.

All in all the images don't say much.
207C? Imminent meltdown. :lol: You're living up to your nickname again, Heater. :roll:
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Re: RPi 3 SoC at nearly 100 °C, reporting 80 °C

Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:38 am

Oops, well spotted David. I'm good but I'm not that hot.

But hey, I have not used Fahrenheit since about 1968...
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Re: RPi 3 SoC at nearly 100 °C, reporting 80 °C

Wed Mar 09, 2016 10:02 am

Htaborda wrote:I must say I'm quite disappointed with the thermal profile of the RPi3.

I recently got 2 RPi3, and I've replaced some previous instances where I was using the RPi2.
When I started checking the temperature, I noticed that my idle temperature is slightly above 50C. High for what I was used to, but not a problem in itself.

When put under load, the RPi3 shoots easily in the 70s C range... As an example, watching a 3gb HD movie meant cruising at 65C, and restoring a KODI backup made it reach 74C. Under a proper stress test, both units reach 85C, and start aggressively throttling down to 800Mhz. So essentially, I bought 2/3 of a RPi3.

I am well aware that it's not going to catch fire. The throttling is the expected behaviour, and 85C is well below the threshold that will damage any chip or component on the board.
However, this is not what I signed up for. As with the Rpi1 and RPi2, I was expecting to have a fully performing product without any gimmicks, throttling or exotic heatsink for a stock unit.

To compound the issue, I compared my results with 2 friends with very similar setups. They have not reached the 85C ceiling when running the same stress test. This means that the RPi3 is being produced with quite some variation between units. It feels that buying an RPi3 right now is more of a lottery. I feel like sending back my units.
Well, if you are not happy with it, send it back. But consider first - the cores have changed to give 50% extra performance, and that performance produces heat. Did you expect the same thermal behaviour (not physically possible btw)? All Pi's use the same governor system, so when they get too hot they throttle. So why do you expect the Pi3 to be any different? Even the Foundation has said you may need a heatsink in certain circumstances, so it's not as if you have been mislead.

2/3rds of a Pi3 = Pi2. But on average, the Pi3 is a faster device with Wifi and BT, for the same price.


All silicon has a range, every chip coming out of the fab has its own characteristics. Some will run slightly hotter than others, some will overclock better than others. It's not a lottery, it's how silicon works.
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Re: RPi 3 SoC at nearly 100 °C, reporting 80 °C

Wed Mar 09, 2016 10:15 am

blc wrote:Thermal imaging can be very misleading, you need to understand the scale that the colours represent. In this case the scale is represented by the temperature readings on each separate image.

FWIW the same criticisms were raised with Gareth Halfacree's first set of thermal images - they used the same colour scale to represent different temperature gradients - but he's since corrected that by using the same colour scale in all images. I can't access reddit or the bit-tech forum at work, so I can't get a link to the updated images - they might be in the reddit link in the OP.

If loverpi's thermal camera is capable of fixing the colour scale as ghalfacree's Flir camera is, perhaps an updated set of images with a fixed colour gradient might help to illustrate the reduction in temperature.
Good point. I've seen Gareth's same colour scale images and it makes far more sense to be comparing apples to apples as it were. I'd love to know whether the heatsink spilling over the edges of the SOC by having too large a footprint is genuinely a problem or not, and this would provide a much clearer method of coming to at least some meaningful conclusion on this.
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Re: RPi 3 SoC at nearly 100 °C, reporting 80 °C

Wed Mar 09, 2016 10:37 am

ssvb wrote:
Pithagoros wrote:This is a useful paragraph. I was originally considering underclocking because of some of the reports on these forums, but in real use my Pi 3 hasn't actually got very warm at all. Monitoring temperature using the internal facility I am seeing 40-45C with no heatsink fitted, the Pi3 sitting on a desktop with no case doing normal coding work. I've been wondering why I've not seen any significant heating.
Well, one of the concerns raised in this topic was about the internal sensor being not exactly accurate, as the topic name suggests. So the differences between individual units might be not only manifesting themselves as different levels of actual power consumption, but also as having a substantially different internal temperature sensor bias too.
I get that, but I can back up the temperature reading with my ultra-reliable fingertip touch test. It's not getting warmed up.
ssvb wrote: In order to observe significant heating, you need to load the Raspberry Pi 3 board with some work stressing all CPU cores simultaneously. One of such examples is a parallel build of some C code using the GCC compiler. Please note that the GCC compiler is a relatively light workload though and much heavier workloads exist. For example, NEON optimized video transcoding from one format into another is rather power hungry. BTW, video playback is not so heavy because it does not need faster than realtime decoding and the CPU usually has a bit of time to rest between decoding individual frames.
Yes, I could get the thing warmed up by deliberately stressing it, but one of the reasons this discussion doesn't make much sense to me is because the stressing tests are not really representative of normal use in the majority of cases. They are like driving a car in second gear with the RPM bouncing off the rev limiter all the time. Why would anyone do that?

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Re: RPi 3 SoC at nearly 100 °C, reporting 80 °C

Wed Mar 09, 2016 10:58 am

jamesh wrote: Well, if you are not happy with it, send it back. But consider first - the cores have changed to give 50% extra performance, and that performance produces heat. Did you expect the same thermal behaviour (not physically possible btw)? All Pi's use the same governor system, so when they get too hot they throttle. So why do you expect the Pi3 to be any different? Even the Foundation has said you may need a heatsink in certain circumstances, so it's not as if you have been mislead.

2/3rds of a Pi3 = Pi2. But on average, the Pi3 is a faster device with Wifi and BT, for the same price.

All silicon has a range, every chip coming out of the fab has its own characteristics. Some will run slightly hotter than others, some will overclock better than others. It's not a lottery, it's how silicon works.
I think the problem is that for 50% more performance the RPi 3 uses 100% more energy. So the performance per joule is 3/4 of the RPi 2 which unfortunately and undisputedly makes the RPi 3 a downgrade.

It seems the reason is ARMv8 vs ARMv7?

A smaller litho would help, 40nm is a bit large when other chips have 28nm and soon 14nm.

Also the RPi 2 CPU was already hitting the bus limit left and right; there is no point to have a V8 engine on a tricycle.

Come back when you have USB3 capable bus and >1GB capable <=28nm SoC! ;)
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Re: RPi 3 SoC at nearly 100 °C, reporting 80 °C

Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:06 am

bullen wrote:Also the RPi 2 was already hitting the bus limit, there is no point to have a V8 engine on a tricycle.
I don't think that's true at all. Overclocking experiments on a Pi2B have returned almost linearly scaling benefits with increasing CPU, GPU and RAM clock speeds in benchmarks for me. By default, the Pi3B uses lower GPU and RAM clocks than I'm using, so I can't imagine a sensible reason why it won't be scaling equally linearly in terms of performance vs clock speeds too.
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Re: RPi 3 SoC at nearly 100 °C, reporting 80 °C

Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:10 am

GTR2Fan wrote:
bullen wrote:Also the RPi 2 was already hitting the bus limit, there is no point to have a V8 engine on a tricycle.
I don't think that's true at all. Overclocking experiments on a Pi2B have returned almost linearly scaling benefits with increasing CPU, GPU and RAM clock speeds in benchmarks for me. By default, the Pi3B uses lower GPU and RAM clocks than I'm using, so I can't imagine a sensible reason why it won't be scaling equally linearly in terms of performance vs clock speeds too.
Sure but did you use the overclocked SoC+RAM to receive/send/read/write data?

That's what the bus is for: ethernet and SD card.
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Re: RPi 3 SoC at nearly 100 °C, reporting 80 °C

Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:15 am

bullen wrote:That's what the bus is for: ethernet and SD card.
The SD card slot performance can easily be doubled when using UHS-I cards and an appropriate line in config.txt on both the Pi2B and Pi3B. Ethernet 10/100 is what it is. It suffices for hundreds of millions of PC users.
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Re: RPi 3 SoC at nearly 100 °C, reporting 80 °C

Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:20 am

@jamesh, just to clarify...

I'm not unhappy with the Pi3 performance by itself. I find it a great piece of hardware, as the Pi1 and the Pi2 were.

However, something is not right this time. Please keep in mind that I am well aware of how hardware is produced. Throttling is normal, building discrepancies are normal, a fact of silicon life.

BUT, and this is a big but, reaching the thermal ceiling under normal use IS NOT NORMAL. To get to 85C under a stress test is also not only normal, but also expected; reaching it in under 5 secs is what is -again- not normal. Differences towards other units are normal; what isn't normal is that I reach it in 5 secs, and the other 2 units dont reach at all. This isn't the normal discrepancy expected to be found in normal CPU/SoC production: these are 2 different chips being sold under the same name.

There is some wrong here, perhaps on the chip design, or perhaps on the manufacturing process. But something is fishy in the kingdom of Pi3.

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Re: RPi 3 SoC at nearly 100 °C, reporting 80 °C

Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:29 am

@Htaborda I agree!
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Re: RPi 3 SoC at nearly 100 °C, reporting 80 °C

Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:32 am

RaTTuS wrote:https://imgur.com/a/WqK2T <- scaled the same
amazing

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Re: RPi 3 SoC at nearly 100 °C, reporting 80 °C

Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:45 am

Htaborda wrote:@jamesh, just to clarify...

I'm not unhappy with the Pi3 performance by itself. I find it a great piece of hardware, as the Pi1 and the Pi2 were.

However, something is not right this time. Please keep in mind that I am well aware of how hardware is produced. Throttling is normal, building discrepancies are normal, a fact of silicon life.

BUT, and this is a big but, reaching the thermal ceiling under normal use IS NOT NORMAL. To get to 85C under a stress test is also not only normal, but also expected; reaching it in under 5 secs is what is -again- not normal. Differences towards other units are normal; what isn't normal is that I reach it in 5 secs, and the other 2 units don't reach at all. This isn't the normal discrepancy expected to be found in normal CPU/SoC production: these are 2 different chips being sold under the same name.

There is some wrong here, perhaps on the chip design, or perhaps on the manufacturing process. But something is fishy in the kingdom of Pi3.
No, it isn't. There might be fishy in your particular Pi, but the kingdom is fine.

" To get to 85C under a stress test is also not only normal, but also expected;" - er, surely the definition of a stress test is that it is off-normal, meant to exercise the limits of a device. It's like saying its normal to drive a Ferrari at maximum speed everywhere, when it clearly isn't.

It's possible you have a duff chip. Which if so, you need to get a replacement board. The production line doesn't test for thermal issues AFAIK, only that the boards work for a while when they are finished, so a chip that degrades but doesn't fail won't be noticed.
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Re: RPi 3 SoC at nearly 100 °C, reporting 80 °C

Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:45 am

@bullen,
I think the problem is that for 50% more performance the RPi 3 uses 100% more energy. So the performance per joule is 3/4 of the RPi 2 which unfortunately and undisputedly makes the RPi 3 a downgrade.
I will dispute it. On account of it being wrong.

Power consumption at idle is up about 14% over the Pi 2. 1.141W vs 1.038W

Meanwhile performance, when needed, is up about 50% over a Pi 2.

See benchmarks here:
https://www.element14.com/community/com ... hmark-ever

All sounds good to me.
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Re: RPi 3 SoC at nearly 100 °C, reporting 80 °C

Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:48 am

bullen wrote:
jamesh wrote: Well, if you are not happy with it, send it back. But consider first - the cores have changed to give 50% extra performance, and that performance produces heat. Did you expect the same thermal behaviour (not physically possible btw)? All Pi's use the same governor system, so when they get too hot they throttle. So why do you expect the Pi3 to be any different? Even the Foundation has said you may need a heatsink in certain circumstances, so it's not as if you have been mislead.

2/3rds of a Pi3 = Pi2. But on average, the Pi3 is a faster device with Wifi and BT, for the same price.

All silicon has a range, every chip coming out of the fab has its own characteristics. Some will run slightly hotter than others, some will overclock better than others. It's not a lottery, it's how silicon works.
I think the problem is that for 50% more performance the RPi 3 uses 100% more energy. So the performance per joule is 3/4 of the RPi 2 which unfortunately and undisputedly makes the RPi 3 a downgrade.

It seems the reason is ARMv8 vs ARMv7?

A smaller litho would help, 40nm is a bit large when other chips have 28nm and soon 14nm.

Also the RPi 2 CPU was already hitting the bus limit left and right; there is no point to have a V8 engine on a tricycle.

Come back when you have USB3 capable bus and >1GB capable <=28nm SoC! ;)
Hmm, my Pi3 works fine. Extra performance, no heatsink, no problems with bandwidth. It's just faster.

40nm was the cheapest option. Going to a smaller process was too expensive. It's basically a chip redesign - you don't just change a number in the fab, you need lots of reworked blocks that work at the new size, and a hell of a lot of testing, fab work etc. Not something you can do in a year with a small team. Whereas simply stuffing a few bigger ARM cores on is a relatively small amount of work in comparison. There's a reason the Pi3 is $35....
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Re: RPi 3 SoC at nearly 100 °C, reporting 80 °C

Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:07 pm

Heater wrote:@bullen,
I think the problem is that for 50% more performance the RPi 3 uses 100% more energy. So the performance per joule is 3/4 of the RPi 2 which unfortunately and undisputedly makes the RPi 3 a downgrade.
I will dispute it. On account of it being wrong.

Power consumption at idle is up about 14% over the Pi 2. 1.141W vs 1.038W

Meanwhile performance, when needed, is up about 50% over a Pi 2.

See benchmarks here:
https://www.element14.com/community/com ... hmark-ever

All sounds good to me.
well not all reviews speak the same on power consumption.

ie pimoroni
http://blog.pimoroni.com/raspberry-pi-3/

i've also seen some reviews stating that the load consumption is the same (?) while the idle consumption is lower on pi3 (??)
can't understand the truth, even if i have an idea :)

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Re: RPi 3 SoC at nearly 100 °C, reporting 80 °C

Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:48 pm

jamesh wrote:Hmm, my Pi3 works fine. Extra performance, no heatsink, no problems with bandwidth. It's just faster.

40nm was the cheapest option. Going to a smaller process was too expensive. It's basically a chip redesign - you don't just change a number in the fab, you need lots of reworked blocks that work at the new size, and a hell of a lot of testing, fab work etc. Not something you can do in a year with a small team. Whereas simply stuffing a few bigger ARM cores on is a relatively small amount of work in comparison. There's a reason the Pi3 is $35....
Well I just booted my Orange Pi One, I will benchmark it + the RPi 3 tonight and write some article about the performance/power/price ratios.

I know posting here is like posting in the Oculus reddit about how the Vive tracking is mathematically superior to the Rift; you can't make friends when you know they are wrong.

But you have competition heading your way. Just ordered a ODROID XU4 last week too.

It's peak computing time and you're missing the bus.
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Re: RPi 3 SoC at nearly 100 °C, reporting 80 °C

Wed Mar 09, 2016 1:00 pm

buying this one http://in.rsdelivers.com/product/abl-co ... ry=7500888
officially recommended by RS Components.
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Re: RPi 3 SoC at nearly 100 °C, reporting 80 °C

Wed Mar 09, 2016 1:09 pm

@Massi,
...not all reviews speak the same on power consumption.
I don't see that the pimoroni test results conflict with what I linked to earlier.


@bullen,
It's peak computing time and you're missing the bus.
8 million Pi shipped in 4 years. Demand still running ahead of supply. How on Earth can you say any bus is being missed?

Raw performance is not everything.
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