Heater
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Re: I feel like betrayed

Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:34 pm

timboler,
I'm sorry but some people are missing the point here; including some moderators...
Good grief. I'm sorry but no.

The Pi guys bust their guts for years to ensure kids have a super cheap computer to play with and learn from. Mostly out of sense of fun, passion, and the mission set out by Eben and encoded into the Pi Foundations charter.

And then comes a lot of self-entitled whining about "You did not tell us this or that, and whatever statement was misleading" and "I bought a really cheap nice thing which would have made me happy but now I find there is bit nicer thing available so I'm miserable and angry"

If this was the majority attitude I would not blame the Pi guys from just taking their ball and going home. Then you have nothing. If you want it make it yourself. Or take the deal from Intel or whatever Chinese <fruit>pi is announced this week.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

Heater
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Re: I feel like betrayed

Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:41 pm

Sleep Mode zZ,

Yes, yes. Everyone knows the Osborne effect is a myth. Or at least the cause of Osborne's downfall was more complicated than that.

But like most biblical stories there is a germ of truth in there to think about.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

timboler
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Re: I feel like betrayed

Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:16 pm

Heater wrote:timboler,
I'm sorry but some people are missing the point here; including some moderators...
Good grief. I'm sorry but no.

The Pi guys bust their guts for years to ensure kids have a super cheap computer to play with and learn from. Mostly out of sense of fun, passion, and the mission set out by Eben and encoded into the Pi Foundations charter.

And then comes a lot of self-entitled whining about "You did not tell us this or that, and whatever statement was misleading" and "I bought a really cheap nice thing which would have made me happy but now I find there is bit nicer thing available so I'm miserable and angry"

If this was the majority attitude I would not blame the Pi guys from just taking their ball and going home. Then you have nothing. If you want it make it yourself. Or take the deal from Intel or whatever Chinese <fruit>pi is announced this week.
Just to be clear I love the Pi and I also love the vision and values of the foundation. Hats off to the team.

I'm also happy to carry on supporting the movement by buying more units and telling all my friends and colleagues how great it is.

I just think it's unfortunate that definitive official statements are put out there saying no new version is not going to be developed when that's not the case.

stderr
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Re: I feel like betrayed

Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:19 pm

Pithagoros wrote:It would be madness to pre-announce new Pis in advance, nobody in their right mind would do that in these circumstances.
No one has explained why pre-announcing is OK for mostly everyone else. That's certainly the effect of all the Kickstarter programmes. One thing that others pre-announcing and the pi people not means is that they can slide in right before someone else ships.

But does this really matter? The Foundation, I hate referring to it as that because of the Mule and all that I went about earlier, it gets press. Man does it get press. I was reading about it in the Guardian today. Usually they don't have time for anything but clickbait to infuriate so that is impressive. I think comments were even enabled. No news yet though on the Daily feMail's reaction, I'm sure they'll be one: "Kim Kardashian's sister buys a couple of pi3 instead of Chris Rock's Girl Scout cookies."

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Re: I feel like betrayed

Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:24 pm

alexeames wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote: My biggest Pi-related regret is that I never got an original Model A.
Hal I think I may have a spare one if you want it? :D
Yes, please! What do you want for it?

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Re: I feel like betrayed

Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:28 pm

stderr wrote:
alexeames wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote: My biggest Pi-related regret is that I never got an original Model A.
Hal I think I may have a spare one if you want it? :D
I have a brace of the 256meg model A that I've got IR cameras in. Is that the original or did they actually ship them with only a buck twenty eight RAM?
The proposed 128MB Model A was never produced, so far as I know.

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Re: I feel like betrayed

Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:32 pm

Heater wrote:When the Pi was launched there was no competition at anything less than ten times the price. I was on the look out for such things at the time.
That's a bit of hyperbole. From what I can tell, the preferred maker/hobbyist SBC (as opposed to MCU) was the Beagleboard at $90, or a bit less than three times the price of a Pi.

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Re: I feel like betrayed

Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:40 pm

timboler wrote:I'm sorry but some people are missing the point here; including some moderators.

It's not that the foundation didn't give a "countdown" to the new release, it's that in effect there was deliberately misleading information stating a new version wasn't going to be developed.

I believe in good faith and since the foundation is a charity I don't think it's unreasonable not to be misslead.

I will buy a RasPi3 also and be very happy with it I'm sure and thanks to all the development team but it's the principle hat counts.
Regardless of what *anybody* says, I take it as a given that the RPF is *always* working on the next version of at least one thing, if not several. At this point, we know that, besides the Pi3B, the CM3 actually exists but won't be released for a while and that a Pi3A is planned for this year (and I'd be surprised if there isn't at least *some* preliminary hardware). I would be totally astonished if work hasn't started on what will eventually be a Pi4B within the next 6 months, and it is likely to be already underway. I wouldn't be surprised if at least a partial plan exists to upgrade the Pi3B to 2 GB, it being mostly a matter of cost to do that (I'm presuming that the 2837 has at least 31 address lines, and probably at least 32...the only question is: are the exposed and are traces in place?).

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Re: I feel like betrayed

Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:44 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
alexeames wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote: My biggest Pi-related regret is that I never got an original Model A.
Hal I think I may have a spare one if you want it? :D
Yes, please! What do you want for it?
Let's take it to DM to avoid going OT, but just a little to cover the shipping. Someone gave me a Pi that I was missing from my collection and now it's my chance to pay it forward. :)
Alex Eames RasPi.TV, RasP.iO

Dutch_Master
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Re: I feel like betrayed

Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:47 pm

alexeames wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote: Let's take it to DM
Leave me out of it, will ya? :roll:

hat, coat, TAXI!! ;) :mrgreen:

(sorry, couldn't resist ;) )

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Re: I feel like betrayed

Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:48 pm

Sleep Mode zZ wrote: I'm not criticizing the Foundation's strategy because it clearly does work for them. I just don't like hearing about the "Osborne effect" as an justification for their strategy, when it is something of a myth, and when the real justification for the Foundation's strategy and the reasons for it's success are really something quite different.
Would you accept belief in the Osbourne Effect as a justification for the strategy? Besides...early on, when even minor changes could have big effects, and having to write off a significant amount of inventory could have severe consequences, could go very far to induce someone to hesitate to let it be known that changes were imminent.

On the other hand, with the popularity of the Pi--in all it's models, and, yes, I include the Model A in that--there is the possibility that people will attempt to get soon-to-be-discontinued/hard to get models if an announcement is made. I do not, personally, have a use for the Pi cameras, but on hearing about the sensor being discontinued (meaning that, in due time, there will be a second generation Pi camera), I put a pair of cameras on my "must get soon list". I have one of each, even if I never use either of them.

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Re: I feel like betrayed

Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:49 pm

timboler wrote:I'm sorry but some people are missing the point here; including some moderators.

It's not that the foundation didn't give a "countdown" to the new release, it's that in effect there was deliberately misleading information stating a new version wasn't going to be developed.

I believe in good faith and since the foundation is a charity I don't think it's unreasonable not to be misslead.

I will buy a RasPi3 also and be very happy with it I'm sure and thanks to all the development team but it's the principle hat counts.
What does the Pi 2 that you bought yesterday not do when you plug it in today?
Rockets are loud.
https://astro-pi.org

stderr
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Re: I feel like betrayed

Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:50 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Heater wrote:When the Pi was launched there was no competition at anything less than ten times the price. I was on the look out for such things at the time.
That's a bit of hyperbole. From what I can tell, the preferred maker/hobbyist SBC (as opposed to MCU) was the Beagleboard at $90, or a bit less than three times the price of a Pi.
And now guess what, they have the Beaglebone Green sitting right at about $38. So even if you don't buy the pi, you gained greatly from their various moves in the SBC market.

Heater
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Re: I feel like betrayed

Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:56 pm

Ah the Beagle. Came out around about the same time. Perhaps only three times the price rather than the ten I mentioned. Never quite hit the Maker spot like the Arduino and the Pi. Whatever happened to the Beagle?
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Re: I feel like betrayed

Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:59 pm

Heater wrote:Whatever happened to the Beagle?
Colin Pillinger lost it. :(
Pi2B Mini-PC/Media Centre: ARM=1GHz (+3), Core=500MHz, v3d=500MHz, h264=333MHz, RAM=DDR2-1200 (+6/+4/+4+schmoo). Sandisk Ultra HC-I 32GB microSD card on '50=100' OCed slot (42MB/s read) running Raspbian/KODI16, Seagate 3.5" 1.5TB HDD mass storage.

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Re: I feel like betrayed

Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:01 pm

Dutch_Master wrote:
alexeames wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote: Let's take it to DM
Leave me out of it, will ya? :roll:

hat, coat, TAXI!! ;) :mrgreen:

(sorry, couldn't resist ;) )
Resistance is futile, but don't let me impede you.

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Re: I feel like betrayed

Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:04 pm

GTR2Fan wrote: Colin Pillinger lost it. :(
Harsh words.
Rockets are loud.
https://astro-pi.org

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Re: I feel like betrayed

Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:09 pm

Heater wrote:Ah the Beagle. Came out around about the same time. Perhaps only three times the price rather than the ten I mentioned. Never quite hit the Maker spot like the Arduino and the Pi. Whatever happened to the Beagle?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BeagleBoard

Revision B released 28 July 2008, or a bit over 3-1/2 years before the Pi Model B. I think it goes to show that the right price (and, possibly, the right timing) is very important. Last I looked All the Beagle SBCs, collectively, were tracking at about 5% is Pi sales.

Right now, the people crying in their beer are probably the PINE64 folks and the ones running Hardkernel. Yes, they can deliver slightly better specs, but--once you add in the wireless--at a higher cost and all of it without really robust software ready to go.

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piglet
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Re: I feel like betrayed

Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:10 pm

Heater wrote:Yes, yes. Everyone knows the Osborne effect is a myth.
I thought it was all about showing you the effects of too many drugs...or am I thinking of a different Osbourne....

On topic...great! Some of the profits are getting used to develop new stuff to keep the charity work going. Sounds like a sensible way to do things.

I use my Pi 1's as test-dummies for anything hardware related I do. I know how little I know about electronics. If I accidentally let out the magic smoke of a Pi 1 I won't mind too much. However, so far......no accidents.

stderr
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Re: I feel like betrayed

Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:11 pm

Heater wrote:Ah the Beagle. Came out around about the same time. Perhaps only three times the price rather than the ten I mentioned. Never quite hit the Maker spot like the Arduino and the Pi. Whatever happened to the Beagle?
I think they are doing fine although with much lower volumes obviously than the pi people. They have 4gig of on board flash and two 32bit PRU for real time tasks. Their market is more extreme maker stuff than the pi is mostly going after.

Heater
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Re: I feel like betrayed

Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:23 pm

stderr,

Must be very extreme Makers. How does one program a PRU? Are there any Free and Open Source software tools available to do that?
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

stderr
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Re: I feel like betrayed

Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:25 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:Right now, the people crying in their beer are probably the PINE64 folks and the ones running Hardkernel. Yes, they can deliver slightly better specs, but--once you add in the wireless--at a higher cost and all of it without really robust software ready to go.
This stuff is *not* really what the Beaglebone stuff is competing in. Hardkernel and PINE and PI, they are all at least making some attempt to woo people into using their boards for desktop like boxes.

What I think is potentially finally here in a sane way is marshalling many or at least a few SBC boards together to build a relatively powerful desktop like machine. Not a cluster, a group of machines load balanced based on the multiple things you want to do. I mean like access the web generally, access the web securely, run android apps, use a text editor/IDE/word processor, compile or loop run on your code.

All of these things can easily be done on different computers and linked together on a shared desktop with one or more monitors. And as these SBC boards evolve, you would then be free to upgrade one or more of your boards in your set.

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Re: I feel like betrayed

Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:41 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Sleep Mode zZ wrote: I'm not criticizing the Foundation's strategy because it clearly does work for them. I just don't like hearing about the "Osborne effect" as an justification for their strategy, when it is something of a myth, and when the real justification for the Foundation's strategy and the reasons for it's success are really something quite different.
Would you accept belief in the Osbourne Effect as a justification for the strategy? Besides...early on, when even minor changes could have big effects, and having to write off a significant amount of inventory could have severe consequences, could go very far to induce someone to hesitate to let it be known that changes were imminent.
I accept that the belief in the Osborne effect is, or at least has been, to some extent a genuine belief. It might be partially responsible for RPF's choice of a product launch strategy. I also suspect that many at RPF do know better but that the Osborne effect is the justification chosen to be given to the public because it suits that role. It is basically something like: "We know that the non-information (sometimes bordering on misinformation) might upset some people but we have to do it for our very survival". There are real valid reasons to use this kind of product launch strategy, but they might not be accepted as readily by the public, while they are just normal business practices and totally acceptable in that sense. And it is good to keep in mind that what benefits RPF will also benefit customers in the long run.

The risk of ending with a significant amount of old inventory in a warehouse when launching a new product is not actually very big in this case. First of all, the choice really is not between telling everything to the public while starting to do something or keeping everything secret until the launch day. There is reasonable middle ground between those options. Secondly, the new product won't make the old product wholly redundant. It will still be worth something to some people - like you demonstrated with your example.
W. H. Heydt wrote:On the other hand, with the popularity of the Pi--in all it's models, and, yes, I include the Model A in that--there is the possibility that people will attempt to get soon-to-be-discontinued/hard to get models if an announcement is made. I do not, personally, have a use for the Pi cameras, but on hearing about the sensor being discontinued (meaning that, in due time, there will be a second generation Pi camera), I put a pair of cameras on my "must get soon list". I have one of each, even if I never use either of them.

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Re: I feel like betrayed

Mon Feb 29, 2016 11:01 pm

timboler wrote:I'm sorry but some people are missing the point here; including some moderators.

It's not that the foundation didn't give a "countdown" to the new release, it's that in effect there was deliberately misleading information stating a new version wasn't going to be developed.
Let's imagine that development, testing and production of the Pi 3 went better than anyone expected, that likely setbacks didn't materialise, and that, in consequence, it's ready earlier than its designers anticipated. Should they now sit on it for six to twelve months just because they originally thought it would take that long?

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Re: I feel like betrayed

Mon Feb 29, 2016 11:10 pm

I bought 5 Pi2 kits from element14 for work that arrived 2 days ago,

they will do their job as remote desktop terminals along side the 20+ others i have deployed for probably years to come

I Regret Nothing!

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