obarthelemy
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Re: Do i need to programm the Ras-pi before i can use an OS?

Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:24 pm

Layout of the card is known:
Basic layout is: small FAT, then ext4 for the rest of the available space.
1- a small (a few 100 KBs) FAT partition containing the GPU firmware and a file for the ARM to boot off (can be linux kernel, bootloader...),
2- usually, you'll also have another partition with the OS's rootfs. Hackers might move that to a USB peripheral, the network... whatever their ARM bootloader/kernel can handle
3- you may have other partitions, say data or swap or other rootfs if you bootloader handles that, or whatever, at will.

I don't know what imager software nor what image format the Pi guys will actually use. There's several possibilities, basically anything that can make a bootable Linux USB stick: .iso, .img, .dd, ... for the images, WinImager, Universal USB Installer, ... for the imager. There don't seem to be problems with any of those, so I wouldn't stress out over those details right now. The Imager and the images will be available for free, from here.

dpawson
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Re: Do i need to programm the Ras-pi before i can use an OS?

Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:29 pm

Thanks obarthelemy, so it's basically not known yet...
And using DD is #fail by the sounds of it? Do you agree @kme?
dd won't drop in boot sw?

Dave

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Re: Do i need to programm the Ras-pi before i can use an OS?

Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:36 pm

Quote from dpawson on November 19, 2011, 12:29
Thanks obarthelemy, so it's basically not known yet...
And using DD is #fail by the sounds of it? Do you agree @kme?
dd won't drop in boot sw?

Dave
Yes it will. It copies byte-by-byte no matter if it's a MBR, a FAT table, a boot loader or what-ever. DD doesn't care.

dpawson
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Re: Do i need to programm the Ras-pi before i can use an OS?

Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:53 pm

Quote from kme on November 19, 2011, 12:36
Quote from dpawson on November 19, 2011, 12:29
Thanks obarthelemy, so it's basically not known yet...
And using DD is #fail by the sounds of it? Do you agree @kme?
dd won't drop in boot sw?

Dave
Yes it will. It copies byte-by-byte no matter if it's a MBR, a FAT table, a boot loader or what-ever. DD doesn't care.

My apologies, never used it for non Linux disks.
What's the full cmd params you'd use then please?
say to /media/xxx

Dave

kme
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Re: Do i need to programm the Ras-pi before i can use an OS?

Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:09 pm

Quote from dpawson on November 19, 2011, 12:53
What's the full cmd params you'd use then please?
say to /media/xxx
Well, it will depend on what exactly the R-Pi team will gift us with, but basically like this:

dd if=r-pi.img of=/media/xxx bs=1024

where you can play with block size (bs) for optimizing speed. However, dd isn't any speed daemon as it faithfully copies empty space too. But as SD cards are rather small it will be ok.

dpawson
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Re: Do i need to programm the Ras-pi before i can use an OS?

Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:23 pm

Thanks @kme. Makes sense with an agnostic target...

http://www.linuxquestions.org/.....nd-362506/

Yes. Makes more sense now. DD.. Data destroyer!

Were we to do that on the RPi... I guess we'd be asking different questions.
I'm becoming impatient for this thing to be on my desk :-)

Thanks for more enlightenment.

Dave

lisa107b
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Re: Do i need to programm the Ras-pi before i can use an OS?

Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:55 pm

Quote from liz on November 15, 2011, 21:39
The final prices are $25 for the model A, and $35 for the model B. Software is free, but you will have to buy an SD card or have one already.

Hi there and thank you for the info,
I'm very new to Linux and also had some commercial programming experience with J2ME development using Windows.

I have to say, I'm still quite scared of Linux, having dabbled with it only a handful of times - it always seems so complicated to do the simple things like installing the drivers you need (Esp if you want 3D stuff) so I'd like to ask if there would there be a basic build that you can download and use with Raspi available from the Raspi site, or, would people have to source and find the right distributions/drivers/utilities that would work with it?

Thanks,

Lisa

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Re: Do i need to programm the Ras-pi before i can use an OS?

Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:16 pm

Well, with R-Pi this isn't any concern as you will unable to touch anything. All video driver stuff comes in a closed source blob from Broadcom. You might find this reassuring, I don't.

eggn1n3
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Re: Do i need to programm the Ras-pi before i can use an OS?

Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:30 pm

I have to say, I'm still quite scared of Linux, having dabbled with it only a handful of time
Don't forget the community is here to help you. I guess there are plenty of people here thinking about Linux the same as you are. Don't worry I learned it too ;-) The first time I looked at Linux (1995) I thought "what the h*ll is this???". Now I have the same with Windows ;-)

lisa107b
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Re: Do i need to programm the Ras-pi before i can use an OS?

Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:41 pm

Quote from eggn1n3 on November 21, 2011, 14:30
I have to say, I'm still quite scared of Linux, having dabbled with it only a handful of time
Don't forget the community is here to help you. I guess there are plenty of people here thinking about Linux the same as you are. Don't worry I learned it too ;-) The first time I looked at Linux (1995) I thought "what the h*ll is this???". Now I have the same with Windows ;-)

LOL :) would be good for me to get there because I know Linux is a far more efficient OS (once you get it working the way you like) I've had a dual boot scenario a couple of times but ended up defaulting to 'old familiar' Windoze ;), its actually part of the reason why I like the idea of Ras-pi, something to get you away from the temptation of the familiar and challenges you to take a different perspective. But the same question of 'where to start' remains.

jamesh
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Re: Do i need to programm the Ras-pi before i can use an OS?

Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:58 pm

Quote from kme on November 21, 2011, 14:16
Well, with R-Pi this isn't any concern as you will unable to touch anything. All video driver stuff comes in a closed source blob from Broadcom. You might find this reassuring, I don't.

Rather disingenuous I think.

The only bits you cannot get from a source code perspective is the GPU code, and some userland libraries. Code which most (99.9%) people will have no interest in whatsoever. The GPU code you wouldn't be able to build any way (do you have the required compiler?).

Video driver is built in to the distro and will just work. OpenGL/VG is accessed via the standard OpenGL API using libraries provided and already installed on the distro.

So, no drivers to install to get the device running if you use the distro provided by Raspi, which the majority of people will.

To all intents and purposes, to the majority of people using it, this will be just like any other Linux system, with certain stuff preinstalled to make it work on the Raspi.
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lisa107b
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Re: Do i need to programm the Ras-pi before i can use an OS?

Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:07 pm

"So, no drivers to install to get the device running if you use the distro provided by Raspi, which the majority of people will."

Ah, so there will be a build you provide that can be downloaded for an SD Card(A gold-card image?)
The next logical question would be how big would it be?

jamesh
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Re: Do i need to programm the Ras-pi before i can use an OS?

Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:11 pm

We have two at the moment, 2 and 4GB.
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abishur
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Re: Do i need to programm the Ras-pi before i can use an OS?

Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:31 pm

Edit: Left my window open too long and didn't see Jamesh's response before I replied :P

Actually it will be in the kernel, and my understanding is that they'll allow us to download the kernel so we can integrate it into our distro of choice rather than be limited to one or two distros :)
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eggn1n3
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Re: Do i need to programm the Ras-pi before i can use an OS?

Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:53 pm

Thinking about this..... it would not make any sense to compile your own kernel anyway as you are depending on the kernel video code? Right??

kme
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Re: Do i need to programm the Ras-pi before i can use an OS?

Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:00 pm

Quote from eggn1n3 on November 21, 2011, 15:53
Thinking about this..... it would not make any sense to compile your own kernel anyway as you are depending on the kernel video code? Right??The kernel and the video subsystem has little to do with each other, so it may make a lot of sense to customize the kernel. A R-Pi kernel will have little resemblance with a default Linux kernel as you can cut out a zillion things like support for isa/eide/pci/pcie/sata/scsi, parallel ports and so on and on.

lisa107b
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Re: Do i need to programm the Ras-pi before i can use an OS?

Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:14 pm

Talk of rebuilding a kernel makes new peoples (like me) break out into cold sweat...
There was one time I think I tried to install some developer stuff that seemed to cause the system to recompile the kernel each time it booted, to the extent that one time it completely crashed the install, or it was something I did/didn't do.

It was one of those early experiences that really soured the feel of the buzz surrounding Linux for me.

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Re: Do i need to programm the Ras-pi before i can use an OS?

Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:25 pm

Quote from lisa107b on November 21, 2011, 16:14
Talk of rebuilding a kernel makes new peoples (like me) break out into cold sweat...
There was one time I think I tried to install some developer stuff that seemed to cause the system to recompile the kernel each time it booted, to the extent that one time it completely crashed the install, or it was something I did/didn't do.

It was one of those early experiences that really soured the feel of the buzz surrounding Linux for me.

Don't worry. You do NOT need to compile your own kernel. Nobody does. Please ignore the many posts that talk about it - from your perspective, they are irrelevant. I cannot emphasise enough how much you don't need to do this!

Some people might WANT to compile their own kernel and they are more than welcome to do so.

I probably won't bother once Raspi have one finalised - it's going to be optimised for the board, and unless you want something unusual will be more than adequate for the vast majority of tasks.
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kme
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Re: Do i need to programm the Ras-pi before i can use an OS?

Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:26 pm

Quote from lisa107b on November 21, 2011, 16:14
Talk of rebuilding a kernel makes new peoples (like me) break out into cold sweat...Well, then don't. Just run with your default kernel. No problem. There is no necessity to rebuild it.

But there is no reason to limit other people to play with it just becourse it scares you. Just as if some meal doesn't become you, others should be allowed to have it.

If don't understand this suppressive mentality: What I don't understand no one should understand. And it is in direct conflict with the mentality behind R-Pi as far as I'm concerned, which is to encourage curiosity and challenge ideas.

lisa107b
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Re: Do i need to programm the Ras-pi before i can use an OS?

Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:53 pm

Quote from jamesh on November 21, 2011, 16:25
Don't worry. You do NOT need to compile your own kernel. Nobody does. Please ignore the many posts that talk about it - from your perspective, they are irrelevant. I cannot emphasise enough how much you don't need to do this!

Some people might WANT to compile their own kernel and they are more than welcome to do so.

I probably won't bother once Raspi have one finalised - it's going to be optimised for the board, and unless you want something unusual will be more than adequate for the vast majority of tasks.

Sounds good :) so if you don't mind my asking, what sort of software would you consider including in the default image?

Coming from a Java perspective, which language is a good way to start playing around with the Raspberry?

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abishur
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Re: Do i need to programm the Ras-pi before i can use an OS?

Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:14 pm

Ah sorry, I didn't mean to make you think you had to recompile the whole kernel, I was trying to say that if there's a distro you want to use other than what's offered on the r-pi site, then you can replace the kernel it uses with the already fully compiled kernel provided by the r-pi team.

But as jamesh is saying, even that is completely irrelevant if you just want to use one of the distros included in the image that we will be able to download off the r-pi site. :)

I'm hoping that they ship with only the bare minimums and let us choose how to load out our pi, but since a bash prompt (command prompt for any windows fans out there ;) ) can be very intimidating, it might be nice if they offered a LXDE image (LXDE is a very lightweight GUI).
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Re: Do i need to programm the Ras-pi before i can use an OS?

Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:10 pm

I don't know specifically what is going to go on the image, but I expect more than one to be available. One basic command prompt, one with a GUI, perhaps a languages one with lots preinstalled. This is certainly something the community can help with - it's not difficult modifying an existing image - just lots of apt-gets usually.

My programming recommendation would be Python, but it's so easy to install other languages by very simple comment lines that can be easily documented.
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Re: Do i need to programm the Ras-pi before i can use an OS?

Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:14 pm

Quote from kme on November 21, 2011, 16:26
Quote from lisa107b on November 21, 2011, 16:14
Talk of rebuilding a kernel makes new peoples (like me) break out into cold sweat...Well, then don't. Just run with your default kernel. No problem. There is no necessity to rebuild it.

But there is no reason to limit other people to play with it just becourse it scares you. Just as if some meal doesn't become you, others should be allowed to have it.

If don't understand this suppressive mentality: What I don't understand no one should understand. And it is in direct conflict with the mentality behind R-Pi as far as I'm concerned, which is to encourage curiosity and challenge ideas.

Not sure what you are getting at here. Who is limiting what? No-one has said you cannot roll you own kernel. And I'm really confused by your final paragraph.
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lisa107b
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Re: Do i need to programm the Ras-pi before i can use an OS?

Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:49 pm

Quote from jamesh on November 21, 2011, 20:10
I don't know specifically what is going to go on the image, but I expect more than one to be available. One basic command prompt, one with a GUI, perhaps a languages one with lots preinstalled. This is certainly something the community can help with - it's not difficult modifying an existing image - just lots of apt-gets usually.

My programming recommendation would be Python, but it's so easy to install other languages by very simple comment lines that can be easily documented.

Yes, I started tinkering around in Ubuntu again (in a VM) and had a peek at Python, there's a new channel on Youtube which has been really useful so far. I'm afraid I don't know his name yet, but he is running a VM that reflects as much as possible the RaspberryPi environment and also wants to teach a little bit about programming: http://www.youtube.com/user/Ra.....iTutorials

He's only done 3 tutorials so far, but I'm finding them really useful :)

willrandship
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Re: Do i need to programm the Ras-pi before i can use an OS?

Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:49 pm

Well, I'm definitely expecting multiple image options, considering they showed demos of Fedora and Ubuntu (or was it Debian? I have poor memory :P) both running on the Pi.

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