Wattie
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Managing knowledge

Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:21 am

I have some sympathy with people round here who get frustrated trying to find answers, but that is more to do with having been instrumental in putting ITIL into useful operation in several places, than being angry because I feel entitled to a fully developed, supported and robust product. Yeah I read that thread, and a lot of others. I feel sorry for the mods, whose job is made difficult more because the square peg of knowledge retrieval is still being rammed into the round hole of a forum.

Part of the evolution (maturity) of something successful is that the supporting facilities struggle to catch up with needs.

If I have a Raspberry Pi issue, I use Google, which means I have to parse many poorly chosen suggestions before I get a hint of what may be similar to my problem. I'm clever enough to adapt, so I won't complain that I have to use some intelligence to get there. I usually get pointed to these pages, where I have to surf again through some amateur suggestions before deciding who may actually be an expert who could point to the root cause, if I am lucky. Some suggestions are downright wrong. Even I can tell that. With the best will in the world, people become laconic and disinterested in answering the same questions over and over again, so (my estimate) 1 in 10 threads have information, the rest have a chain of hyper-links to some original information. Even outside these forums, plagiarism and click-bait boil down to just a few sources of interest, and let's face it those people who know stuff aren't always expert in presenting it in a plain and logical form, let alone keeping it up to date.

What's my point?

Isn't it time to take up the issue - root cause - knowledge model seriously? Rather than Google, refine Google, try something, Google more, wouldn't it be better to have a home for Raspberry Pi knowledge? Yes I know there is a troubleshooting section a bit further down the page. What level of capability maturity is that? What level is worth working on? Rather than reading something sequentially, you can go back to constructing search criteria in that restricted area, but that's a workaround for the square peg round hole principle.

Before your fingers jerk into responding to this thread, I should explain I am prepared to do something along these lines if I can find some collaborators. This is just the seed of an idea at present, and maybe I haven't found that something like this exists already.

I'm currently placing bets with myself about what sort of responses this may get.

Peace and love

fruit-uk
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Re: Managing knowledge

Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:53 am

Mm... google foo is an aquired skill - I think

One important rule when using the internet...
Don't believe anything you read - until you have found plenty of reliable corroborating evidence that it is true

Massi
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Re: Managing knowledge

Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:01 am

what are you talking about?

90% of new questions on this forum is one of these kinds:
- "i've tried everything to get (x) working, but it does not work. Help me" (no details at all)
- "i've never seen a computer, but i've been told that with raspberry i can build Optimus Prime with a box of lego duplo. Tell me how"
- "I want my homeworks made by some of you. and i want this done fast."
- "i know there's a detailed troubleshooting guide to boot problems, but i (go to first kind)"

Nothing of what you said can do anything about this.
And this said, this forum is by far the highest level of support and knowledge i've ever seen (even regarding commercial products!)

Now, some questions for you:
- what kind of isntrument are you thinking about? i guess some sort of wiki?
- who should manage it and keep it updated?
- why a wiki should solve alll the "linking" problems you talk about? (there will be links to the wiki, or are you thinking about closing the forum??)

ghans
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Re: Managing knowledge

Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:02 am

The Raspberry Pi foundation generates their official documentation (on this very site)
out of a public Github repo , after they realized the Wiki at eLinux.org was prone to vandalism.
They accept pull requests.

Q&A sites like StackOverflow like point out that their mode of operation is much better at solving concrete questions - and i find that i have to agree. There is no "derailing" or speculation on those platforms , and the community weeds out useless answers without impunity via voting. Conversely , extendend discussion is not allowed on such Q&A sites.

Don't forget that you also can downvote unclear or ill-formed questions too. Another interesting feature is the "community wiki" mode of answering ,
where you keep your answer open to improvements by others.

Incidentally , a Raspberry Pi specific Q&A site exists on the Stackexchange network : http://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com

ghans
Last edited by ghans on Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
• Don't like the board ? Missing features ? Change to the prosilver theme ! You can find it in your settings.
• Don't like to search the forum BEFORE posting 'cos it's useless ? Try googling : yoursearchtermshere site:raspberrypi.org

Wattie
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Re: Managing knowledge

Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:08 am

Not the internet, and I don't think a wiki because they can be easily destroyed. I was proposing to use the ITIL model I mentioned, but it maybe that the issue/problem/knowledge sharing is already built.

Ghans, I think you caught what I mean, and I need to check into your helpful reply.

Cheers!

Wattie
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Re: Managing knowledge

Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:18 am

@Massi: this is not a forum issue. This is about finding knowledge quickly.

I believe you are reading my post back to front. The forum is a symptom, not the problem.

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r3d4
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Re: Managing knowledge

Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:19 am

Wattie wrote: a home for Raspberry Pi knowledge
I think you will find you realy mean linux knowledge TBH .

the pi is the hardware
you could run riscos or as most i guess raspbian a debian derived gnu/linux

Majority of ppl are looking for some program or config are looking for things runing under a gnu/linux built for arm


More genraly FYI you may find intresting a doc called
`The Web That Wasn't` - a little info on the pre interweb history of human knowledge (mis)managment
that is if you dont know of it all ready
:roll:

"I'm currently placing bets with myself about what sort of responses this may get." :?:

Wattie
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Re: Managing knowledge

Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:37 am

Thanks r3d4, but I know what I mean. All things Raspberry Pi. Hardware, software.

Key words here are ITIL, Capability Maturity, Dunning-Kruger effect.

fruit-uk
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Re: Managing knowledge

Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:55 am

Wattie wrote:Key words here are ITIL, Capability Maturity, Dunning-Kruger effect.
Perhaps it may help others if you define/describe those rather than expecting any unfamiliar with them to have to look them up ;)

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rpdom
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Re: Managing knowledge

Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:58 am

fruit-uk wrote:
Wattie wrote:Key words here are ITIL, Capability Maturity, Dunning-Kruger effect.
Perhaps it may help others if you define/describe those rather than expecting any unfamiliar with them to have to look them up ;)
In my experience, people many who mention ITIL are managers who want to understand IT in management terms, not in IT terms. ;)

Wattie
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Re: Managing knowledge

Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:42 pm

Sorry, I was hoping I would pick up a couple of people who were already familiar with the terms.

Capability Maturity is like a 5 step improvement programme, where the lowest level is chaos, associated with heroic behaviour. Actions are reactive and behaviours are repeated, saviours are venerated. Computers were invented to make repetition easier, so by definition if we are interested in computing, we are interested in a higher maturity than that. So you go through stages like recognising patterns, documenting them, solving them in a more efficient way, having procedures, improving the procedures, right up to the level of predicting unforeseen events and preparing for them in advance. This is the 30 second summary off the top of my head.

It takes a great deal of effort and sponsorship to get from one level to the next, a lot of energy and self testing to stay at a particular level, and it is not seen as a bad thing to understand what level of maturity works for you. There is no point in trying to move from the reactive level if there is a task you only need to perform once. The second time around, you are better knowing what you did last time.

As far as I know, ITIL was around before the internet. A survey of the most successful technology companies showed, amongst other things, that separating an issue from its underlying cause got people back to work quicker than finding out why it happened. A good example from here is that someone with a corrupted SD card would be better served by putting a fresh card and image into their machine than investigating why the image was corrupted. If you corrupt it more than once, you will probably be interested in why. If everyone does it, there's a big investment in preventative rather than corrective action

I used the example not so long ago with soldiers being sniped at when they crossed a road. The corrective action was not to cross the road at that point, the preventative action was to remove the sniper. A soldier insisted that the corrective and preventative actions were to issue bullet proof vests. I couldn't persuade him that what he had suggested was a workaround.

Today, ITIL is more sophisticated in that it recognises the need to navigate to the most valuable knowledge as quickly as possible. It is supported by lots of tools, but the best have indexing (like Google) and have a method of scoring the best and most useful solutions (voting but better). What it does, and why I wanted to discuss this, is a true and efficient link between symptoms, root cause analysis, and good, explained and repeatable knowledge that can be followed by the majority of the audience.

A lot of this is materialistic. Given the same base conditions, a set of actions will result in the same outcome. If it does not, then there is an assumed variable in either the conditions, or the actions. If it is economical to find out why, then that adds to the knowledge. Knowledge is ranked by how often the solution is applied, whether it is useful, and the value of the outcome.

BTW, you don't have to chase everything, only what is appropriate for your efforts. It's like a hyper FAQ, but better

Dunning-Kruger is simply shouting from the top of Mount Stupid. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E ... ger_effect is great for that one, especially the part about lemon juice.

Thanks for the laugh about management.

Yes, I've done this a few times now, and I was merely suggesting that this might be a good time to step up, given volume, investment, frustration and ambition.

More peace and love.

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r3d4
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Re: Managing knowledge

Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:46 pm

Wattie wrote:Thanks r3d4, but I know what I mean.
And hear was i hopeing all you know is that you know nothing :oops: ;)
Real life is, to most, a long second-best, a perpetual compromise between the ideal and the possible.
-
Meanwhile, the sysadmin who accidentally nuked the data reckons "its best not run anything more with sudo today"
-
what about spike milligan?

Wattie
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Re: Managing knowledge

Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:01 pm

I can at least tell the difference between the internet, a help desk, a service desk, and a forum.

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DougieLawson
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Re: Managing knowledge

Wed Jan 20, 2016 9:21 pm

rpdom wrote:
fruit-uk wrote:
Wattie wrote:Key words here are ITIL, Capability Maturity, Dunning-Kruger effect.
Perhaps it may help others if you define/describe those rather than expecting any unfamiliar with them to have to look them up ;)
In my experience, people many who mention ITIL are managers who want to understand IT in management terms, not in IT terms. ;)
+1

In my thirty three years of doing software support I've worked for one manager I respected. He was the guy dropped in to the Bank's IT dept from Corporate Banking. His best skill was admitting he was clueless about IT and therefore letting his experts get on with their jobs. He was the most supportive guy when the brown stuff was hitting the air movement device. The Bank sacked him after a FUBAR that wasn't his fault and that was why I left to join IBM.

There was none of the stupid certification that you could do the job back then, you did the job or you moved to something else. I haven't got a single set of noddy letters to shout about, because I learned my trade in the school of hard knocks not in some classroom in Toy Town.

People who bleat about their ITIL, MBA, CISSP or suchlike had better stay away from me they won't like my reaction.
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Fake doctors - are all on my foes list.

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Heater
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Re: Managing knowledge

Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:02 pm

What the hell is ITIL?

If you are going to suggest a solution by acronym please do us the honor of being sure we all know what it is.

Google, google, ..... OK I got it:

"ITIL describes processes, procedures, tasks, and checklists which are not organization-specific, but can be applied by an organization for establishing integration with the organization's strategy, delivering value, and maintaining a minimum level of competency. It allows the organization to establish a baseline from which it can plan, implement, and measure. It is used to demonstrate compliance and to measure improvement."

And..
"Since July 2013, ITIL has been owned by AXELOS Ltd"
So this is a steaming pile of corporate MBA marketing speak that deserves a punch in the face.

Something approaching reality might be to see that the software used on the Pi, usually Raspbian, consists of thousands of projects created by thousands of individuals, groups, communities, or even corporations spread over the world. It is a turbulent and never ending sea of change.

Meanwhile, humble users like myself may stitch that fabric into a working project. We may describe how it works here or in a blog or wiki or whatever. Of course it may not work for you when things have moved on the moment a publish my findings.

We may answer questions here that are correct for my time and location but obsolete for you.

The Pi Foundation, or indeed anybody, is not big enough to encompass and keep up to date with all this. ITIL and "capability maturity models" are just an illusion.

Tim Berners-Lee's invention of the World Wide Web makes it possible for all of us to do this. Very successfully I might say.


Edit: Sorry if all that sounds a bit harsh. It's just a gut reaction to MBA speak.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

gkreidl
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Re: Managing knowledge

Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:13 pm

The RPi has been developed for education, not for
maintaining a minimum level of competency
which may be good enough for managers, but not for kids.
Minimal Kiosk Browser (kweb)
Slim, fast webkit browser with support for audio+video+playlists+youtube+pdf+download
Optional fullscreen kiosk mode and command interface for embedded applications
Includes omxplayerGUI, an X front end for omxplayer

Heater
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Re: Managing knowledge

Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:19 pm

gkreidl wrote:The RPi has been developed for education, not for
maintaining a minimum level of competency
which may be good enough for managers, but not for kids.
Yep, the folks at the Raspi Foundation have already demonstrated the maximum level of competency. Or at least about the best you will find on this planet.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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alexeames
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Re: Managing knowledge

Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:22 pm

I'd never heard of ITIL until I saw this tweet not 2 minutes before happening on this thread...
https://twitter.com/etherealmind/status ... 8173679616
Screen Shot 2016-01-20 at 22.21.46.png
Screen Shot 2016-01-20 at 22.21.46.png (58.2 KiB) Viewed 3804 times

I'm not mocking ITIL - I have no experience of it. But it seems to elicit some strong reactions in people. :D
Alex Eames RasPi.TV, RasP.iO

Heater
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Re: Managing knowledge

Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:29 pm

He, he. Love it.

Reminds me of time I worked at Nokia. When they were almost at their Zenith. There came this idea for some certification/approval. It was ISO9000 if I recall correctly.

Nothing changed. Why would? It the business was doing fine. Only us engineer droids were told what to say if anybody asked. And what not to say.

They got their ISO 9000 thing.

Shortly after that the whole empire went down...
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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r3d4
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Re: Managing knowledge

Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:37 pm

Heater wrote:What the hell is ITIL?
....
'And..owned by ... Ltd'
hmmmm

from the other stuff ya post id like to transclude this :)
|>'..software used on the Pi, usually $Default_OS ,
|>.. thousands of projects created by thousands of individuals, groups, communities, or even corporations spread over the world.
|>"only everybody[0]"
|>..is big enough to encompass and keep up to date with all this.'
| [0] - A_0FgRKsqqU
Heater wrote:Tim Berners-Lee's invention of the World Wide Web makes it possible for all of us to do this.
tangentially FYI digging around abit i found that "a working deliverable" OpenXanadu is available on the interwebz xD
>> Sample document: "Origins", by Moe Juste "takes a while to open because it's downloading a lot"

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DougieLawson
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Re: Managing knowledge

Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:39 pm

ISO9001 works well in munitions factories where every round made needs to go bang when used.

ISO9001 was the biggest PITA ever introduced to IT depts. There's no way to wrap a process round post-mortem dump debugging, it is too much of an abstract art. The folks who do that stuff think programmer productivity is measured with KLOCs.

I've spent more than twenty years pushing back against this management junk. I'm never going to be ruled by the idiot with an Excel spreadsheet who likes to spout BSBingo.
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fruitoftheloom
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Re: Managing knowledge

Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:40 pm

I believe this thread falls into "Poppycock & Balderdash" category.

I have no letters after my name either unless I wish to use MSRP, which is an embarassment :oops: :oops:
The information is out there....you just have to let it in.

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davidcoton
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Re: Managing knowledge

Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:47 pm

I once worked inn a place where the Management had been on a course. The big thing was Six Sigma, it made manufacturing much more reliable. So the Software Development Department had to explain how they could implements Six Sigma. Of course it was rapidly pointed out that Six Sigma (apart from its inbuilt mathematical errors) might work for high volume manufacturing, but did not work for software -- where every project is a one-off. Time was wasted, Management lost credibility. No-one benefited.

MORAL: Understand where your favourite MBA tool doesn't work before recommending it.
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r3d4
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Re: Managing knowledge

Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:52 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:I believe this thread falls into "Poppycock & Balderdash" category.
I have no letters after my name
Not even "BSc" or "SSc" ?
alexeames wrote:I'd never heard of ITIL until I saw this tweet not 2 minutes before happening on this thread...
Same what ever it is !
Information architecture page
makes for a more intresting read
and appears to be more up to date intresting and relevant
to the management or organization of knowledge ,
in case anyone was expecting something relevent to the title :roll:
Last edited by r3d4 on Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Managing knowledge

Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm

r3d4 wrote:
fruitoftheloom wrote:I believe this thread falls into "Poppycock & Balderdash" category.
I have no letters after my name
Not even "BSc" or "SSc" ?
British Society of Cinematographers or the Swedish Space Corporation :?:
The information is out there....you just have to let it in.

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