Drummel
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2015 5:04 pm

Why is everything so difficult?

Sat Jan 16, 2016 9:17 pm

I have been trying to get my retropie gameboy project to work all day. First there was this audioproblem. I had noise in my speaker. After 3 hours i found a fix... 3 hours just to find one line of code. Hidden in som random forum posted by some random guy. This forum was no help at all. Just suggestions about changing the cables, psu and whatnot. Then my tft sceen wouldnt start. 5 hours later I got half the boot text to show up. Then nothing. I have reformat the sd-card 9 times now. Trying diffrent guides and help.

Why is everything som overly complex? Why cant anyone give a straight answer to any questions? Is just seems like people guess what the problems can be.

[Mod edited to remove weird insult-slinging at...everybody.]

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dobra-dobra
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Re: Why is everything so difficult?

Sat Jan 16, 2016 9:51 pm

First of all you are doing quite ambitious project, so do not expect that everything will be easy. It's not all about combining Lego bricks after all.

You spend few hours learning. You have improved your searching skills for sure. Next time you can make a post on forum about your problem and let people help you. I assure you, that in 50% of cases you will find solution by yourself while trying to explain what you have problem with.

Good luck with your project.
Last edited by dobra-dobra on Sat Jan 16, 2016 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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GTR2Fan
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Re: Why is everything so difficult?

Sat Jan 16, 2016 9:52 pm

+1
Pi2B Mini-PC/Media Centre: ARM=1GHz (+3), Core=500MHz, v3d=500MHz, h264=333MHz, RAM=DDR2-1200 (+6/+4/+4+schmoo). Sandisk Ultra HC-I 32GB microSD card on '50=100' OCed slot (42MB/s read) running Raspbian/KODI16, Seagate 3.5" 1.5TB HDD mass storage.

stderr
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Re: Why is everything so difficult?

Sat Jan 16, 2016 10:01 pm

Drummel wrote:My theory: People who program this stuff are ugly litte mole people who have never meet a real human in their life.
Give the little mole people a break, man. Oh, and when they push the dirt up into those little mounds, don't stamp them down, they are helping to aerate the soil.

BMS Doug
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Re: Why is everything so difficult?

Sat Jan 16, 2016 10:58 pm

Why is everything som overly complex? Why cant anyone give a straight answer to any questions? Is just seems like people guess what the problems can be.
Yes, we read the (often undescriptive) posts and try to figure out what's wrong, that could certainly be described as guessing.

We don't have access to the non-working system so can't know for sure exactly what's wrong, we just do our best to help others figure out where their problem actually is.
Doug.
Building Management Systems Engineer.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Why is everything so difficult?

Sat Jan 16, 2016 11:57 pm

Why is everything som overly complex? Why cant anyone give a straight answer to any questions? Is just seems like people guess what the problems can be.
A) My name is not Doris Stokes

B) The large majority of Linux software is written by developers, mostly without charge

C) The responders in this Forum do so Voluntarily

D) ........etcetera
The information is out there....you just have to let it in.

My other Linux machine is a ChromeBox

jasoncampbell4
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Re: Why is everything so difficult?

Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:30 am

I wake up every morning and ask myself why everything is so hard, and every night I go to bed with that question unanswered. It’s been like that since I found out Father Christmas didn’t exist.

I spend most of my life in the MS Windows environment, where things as supposedly easier, in reality the truth is lots of people live in that environment so there’s a vast knowledgebase. Go off-roading with MS Windows though and it is just as difficult as anything else. Also MS Windows costs quite a bit of money, both for the hardware and software, certainly more than Raspberry Pi.

So people in Pi Land are in a relative minority and like all open source projects you have to take the rough with the smooth. My approach, when I get lost and need help, is not to upset the people who could be able to help me solve my problems. You are reaching out to people who have a better understanding and have invested more into the Pi environment than you have, starting by telling them it is rubbish isn’t where to start.

I’m not sure if your approach generally is going to be productive, by that I mean you need to isolate each problem as it appears as there are so many variables in your complaint. That said it is nice when there are simple guides to most common projects that even total newcomers can understand, at the same time the Pi Foundation isn’t in the business of easy answers, it’s a learning and development project- you are expected to do the work and ask the right questions, often of yourself.

I find You Tube helpful, while the Pi related stuff is usually by terminal nerds who mumble their way through their presentation at least you can watch the screen, again and again if need be.

Pithagoros
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Re: Why is everything so difficult?

Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:54 am

I do enjoy a challenge, to the extent that if things come easy then I find them tedious and not worthwhile.
The fun of this stuff is in the fight and doing the research, that's where the learning happens.

I don't think people learn much if they are spoon fed information.

hippy
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Re: Why is everything so difficult?

Sun Jan 17, 2016 2:19 pm

I can sympathise with feelings of frustration. I wrote an MP3 player in Python, I can't recall which packages I used, but I followed what everyone else was doing and what the documentation said to do. My initial tests proved it worked, and it seemed I was doing it right, but, having invested a lot of time and effort in my program, I found that it would simply stop issuing music after some time. Tests showed it wasn't anything in my program causing the problem, and the problem lay in the package used or deeper still, somewhere out of my control, in a place I had no intention or desire in venturing.

I imagine others have felt the same when reading the internal temperature sensors would hang their Pi, or a 'should work' USB device doesn't behave as expected, or a read-only setup is still corrupting SD cards.

People expect problems in what they create, but expect the foundations they are building on to work as advertised. It's frustrating when they don't and, when it happens often enough it, it becomes easy to think it's a steaming pile of horse manure written by Mole People.

It is perhaps an unreasonable expectation that the foundations will work flawlessly, but it's understandable there will be frustration when one has done everything right only to find a project sunk because someone else hasn't.

gkreidl
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Re: Why is everything so difficult?

Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:13 pm

@hippy: Not the Foundation's fault at all. Besides the fact that you don't seem to know exactly what you have been doing, the OS ( = Raspbian = Debian) is not provided by the Foundation at all (or to be exact, to a very limited degree) but by a huge community of software developers, package maintainers etc.
Nobody can guarantee that everything will work perfectly; in fact, there is no software without any bugs. But Debian is about the most stable system I can imagine (compare the numbers of updates required to Ubuntu or Windows, for example).
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KeithSloan
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Re: Why is everything so difficult?

Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:25 pm

Having written some open source software I would say that at least part of the problem is the users. Most of them don't get off their back side to make any effort to contact the author of the software or article. Commercial developers can afford testing teams where as open source relies on the users. Having worked in software support I try and diagnose the problem and provide good diagnostics i.e. repeatable actions. Won't claim that I am 100%, but I do try, often I admit after I have had time to calmed down following the frustration of something not working.

huddart33
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Poor support and software...

Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:31 pm

With the Raspberry Pi everything is time consuming and difficult. The support documentation, software and operating systems are very difficult to get anything to work. I have now switched to the Arduino which is much better supported and uses and industry standard Programming Language. I fear if we introduce this into our Schools and Universities it will set this country back 30 years and scare people away from computing. Great Hardware but the Software sucks.....

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DougieLawson
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Re: Why is everything so difficult?

Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:53 pm

Most of the problem is that users can't form a coherent question with a coherent description of what they've done, what worked, what didn't work, what they've tried, what they're going to try next and why they think it's a bug in the software that every other user is running without fault.

If more folks read and paid attention to http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html everything would be easier.

There is a case with some of the folks posting stuff on here that they should re-box their Raspberry Pi and return it to their vendor for a refund and go and do something that doesn't need any computer user or computer programmer skills. I suspect they are the same sort of folks who publish meaningless rants on internet forums.
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hippy
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Re: Why is everything so difficult?

Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:19 pm

gkreidl wrote:@hippy: Not the Foundation's fault at all.
I did not blame the Foundation.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Why is everything so difficult?

Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:25 pm

Personally all Raspberry Pi's sold should have a leaflet requesting prior to using
please read the RPF Website Help Page:

https://www.raspberrypi.org/help
The information is out there....you just have to let it in.

My other Linux machine is a ChromeBox

gkreidl
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Re: Why is everything so difficult?

Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:27 pm

hippy wrote:
gkreidl wrote:@hippy: Not the Foundation's fault at all.
I did not blame the Foundation.
Sorry, I misunderstood something in your post.
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hippy
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Re: Why is everything so difficult?

Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:44 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:Personally all Raspberry Pi's sold should have a leaflet requesting prior to using
please read the RPF Website Help Page:

https://www.raspberrypi.org/help
I think it needs something even more fundamental than that; giving people an understanding that things are rarely perfect despite the best will in the world, that published programs may contain errors, what people write may not always be entirely correct, and that what is said to work may not work under all circumstances. We all do our best but we are only human.

Of course that quickly goes out the window when one is cursing something which doesn't work as one has been led to believe it will work. I expect most of us have been there at one time or another; knowing how it is doesn't prevent frustration.

It's not just programming either. Maps and directions are sometimes wrong, instruction manuals don't include some important steps, datasheets have conflicting information or incorrect values. Most people get frustrated when a website, Google, Facebook, Twitter or some other services go down, even though we know 100% up-time and accessibility is more an aspiration than a reality. Frustration is just a part of the human condition.

Heater
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Re: Why is everything so difficult?

Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:44 pm

Drummel,

I sense a great deal of frustration here.

Don't panic. This is normal when you are trying to do something that few people or none have done before.

Certainly don't lash out and blame the world for your difficulties. They are are self inflicted after all. People try to help as best they can.

Anecdote:

As a teenager back in the early 1970's I decided to build a digital clock using TTL chips and Nixie tubes. A neat project because no one had a digital clock at the time, it was all very new.

Of course after I had constructed it, it did not work. After hours of frustration I was prepared to throw the whole the whole thing out the window.

There was no body around who could advise, this was long before the internet and I did not know anyone who understood such things.

Except....my old father, who was no electronics engineer and knew nothing of these new fangled logic chips either made a great suggestion: Why don't you use an ear piece to listen to the signals you expect at various points in the circuit?

Brilliant! In no time at all I had debugged the whole thing. It worked great for many years after.

Moral of the story:

I don't know, perhaps it is that patience is a virtue. Or nothing worth doing comes easy. Or perhaps just an attitude readjustment, nobody can tell the answer to your unique problem but perhaps they can hint at ways to investigate the problem.

With that comes great understanding and personal growth.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

Drummel
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2015 5:04 pm

Re: Why is everything so difficult?

Sun Jan 17, 2016 7:39 pm

Thanks for all the replys, it actually help. The frustration I have had the last 24 hours was a bit much. I have find alot of post and guides for the same hardware that I got, and alot of people that have the same problems that I have. But no solution. Some have got it to work, but their solution doesnt work for me or alot of other people. I got it to kinda start up only to make putty to not work and not being able to quit retropie menu.So back to square one. Its just such a sea of suggestions, guides, posts and fixes. I got kind of lost.

I dont regret posting the rant but Im really sorry for the offensive part. I apologize.

Heater
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Re: Why is everything so difficult?

Sun Jan 17, 2016 7:58 pm

Drummel,

Keep calm, don't panic, divide and conquer.

You have many moving parts to your project: putty, retropie (whatever that is), audio, the tft screen.

I'm pretty sure these are independent parts that need to be addressed one buy one.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

leiptrstormr
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon May 18, 2015 12:33 pm

Re: Why is everything so difficult?

Sun Jan 17, 2016 8:51 pm

Drummel wrote:I have been trying to get my retropie gameboy project to work all day. First there was this audioproblem. I had noise in my speaker. After 3 hours i found a fix... 3 hours just to find one line of code. Hidden in som random forum posted by some random guy. This forum was no help at all. Just suggestions about changing the cables, psu and whatnot. Then my tft sceen wouldnt start. 5 hours later I got half the boot text to show up. Then nothing. I have reformat the sd-card 9 times now. Trying diffrent guides and help.

Why is everything som overly complex? Why cant anyone give a straight answer to any questions? Is just seems like people guess what the problems can be.

[Mod edited to remove weird insult-slinging at...everybody.]
I just so happen to be working on a retropie gameboy project as well. I can't upload it right now, but if you check back tomorrow I'll have a link to the image.

Drummel
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2015 5:04 pm

Re: Why is everything so difficult?

Sun Jan 17, 2016 9:04 pm

Thanx Heater. I got the Audio to work fine this weekend, that something :).

Drummel
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2015 5:04 pm

Re: Why is everything so difficult?

Sun Jan 17, 2016 9:05 pm

And I would gladly check out your image Leiptrstormr.

Navyscourge
Posts: 258
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Re: Why is everything so difficult?

Sun Jan 17, 2016 10:18 pm

When someone posts that they have followed some instructions and that it does not work, one of my first questions (not always asked though) is which instructions these are. Someone writing a program usually has some level of skill, and should have at least got it to work on their system. The usual problem with instructions is that the people writing them don't need any skill. They also don't need to test if they work, as they may be writing from memory. Most of the time they don't update the instructions once they are written.

The Pi has come a long way since it started; at the beginning it was the 'experts' compiling software just to get something working. Now it is usually quite simple for the 'easy' conditions (Pi + Raspbian + HDMI TV + simple USB keyboard and mouse). The number of variations of hardware and available software packages makes it really difficult to understand most peoples problems.

Recently Debian switched to using systemd, and the Pi had to follow this decision. This changed so much that almost any instructions more than 6 months old are not up to date. What a pity we cannot clean them off the internet :)

asandford
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Re: Why is everything so difficult?

Sun Jan 17, 2016 10:32 pm

I feel that the firmware, kernal, DT and OS are moving forward far too fast without a proper bedding in period, and quite a few (most of) tutorials are now irrelevant as they were for pre-DT, pre-kernal 4 and pre-jessie (which IMHO is an abomination)

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