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Lob0426
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Heat Sinks, Do YOU need them.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:37 pm

There has been a lot of discussion on this issue, in numerous threads. Some people have taken this out of context and now believe you HAVE to have them. Before I start you should know that I am an advocate for heat sinks on the Raspberry Pi. BUT!!!

Knowledgeable Members of the Raspberry Pi Foundation and Design Team have stated they are not needed for the normal operation of the Raspberry Pi device! Some have stated you do not need them for any type of operation of the Raspberry Pi.

So how should you read into this? You shouldn't. If you are using your RasPi within the normal use the foundation foresaw for the device YOU DO NOT NEED Heat Sinks for your RasPi. The BCM2835 was designed to operate within a closed case without any problems.

It is others, and my opinion, that a Raspberry Pi used outside of the foundations "normal" use MAY benefit from heat sinks. Not Need Them, but MAY benefit. Outside "normal use" I will define as Use in a CarPC, A closed case that incorporates other heat generating equipment etc..

Of course if you just want to dress up your RasPi for a trip out on the town or a local Raspberry Jam, Then you are more than welcome to do that with heat sinks. The heat sinks will not hurt it either. It comes down to the fact that you do not need to waste your money on heat sinks! As @AndrewS has stated some of those who believe in using heat sinks are old overclockers that believe every chip has to have a heat sink on it. And he may be right. It cost me $2.25 to put them on mine. (actually it cost me $20 for 10 big ones and 10 small ones plus shipping)
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AndrewS
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Re: Heat Sinks, Do YOU need them.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:42 pm

LOL, I was expecting this to be a 'poll' post ;)

"outside of normal use" also includes extreme overclocking/overvolting http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewt ... 86#p136986
Lob0426 wrote:As @AndrewS has stated some of those who believe in using heat sinks are old overclockers that believe every chip has to have a heat sink on it.
I'd love to see someone fitting a heatsink to IC1 :lol:
Last edited by AndrewS on Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Heat Sinks, Do YOU need them.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:45 pm

heat is good for overclocking, (it speeds up the chip) the only reason to cool them isn't speed but longevity, which isn't really a point of deep consideration for a PI.
Yes, for any normal use you do not need to cool the chips on the PI, unless they get much hotter than a 100 degrees Celsius! (actually about 150 degrees is a firm limit).
Even with overclocking and overvolting you won't be able to do that.

Considerations about the chips getting hot do mostly come about because the chips are "nude", unlike chips in PC's which regularly become much hotter. Simply use a case, (with some vent holes if you are afraid your case will melt), so you cannot touch the chips.

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Lob0426
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Re: Heat Sinks, Do YOU need them.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:46 pm

I do no know about Overclocking being outside normal use. It seems like a lot of the team has theirs overvolted and overclocked, So is that outside normal use or not. ;) WE MAY NEVER KNOW!

Is there anybody out there that has NOT tried overclock settings on their RasPi. Now that would be a short poll! :lol:

EDIT: RG3 is toosmall for me to see so I ignore it. :D
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AndrewS
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Re: Heat Sinks, Do YOU need them.

Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:55 pm

mahjongg wrote:Considerations about the chips getting hot do mostly come about because the chips are "nude", unlike chips in PC's which regularly become much hotter.
LOLZ :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uBNCN6v_gk
Lob0426 wrote:Is there anybody out there that has NOT tried overclock settings on their RasPi.
I haven't, yet. Got much more interesting things to do than to try to see how much my RasPi will overclock by :P

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Re: Heat Sinks, Do YOU need them.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:09 am

PC pizzarea. Now I have a real business plan! Now that was funny.

Poll results so far
no OC 1
OC 1

New cooling technology Bologna!
Need a small glass container so we can use drip and steam cooling! :lol:
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Re: Heat Sinks, Do YOU need them.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:28 am

Lob0426 wrote:steam cooling! :lol:
Don't heat-pipe coolers work by using steam? :)

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Re: Heat Sinks, Do YOU need them.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:06 am

Lob0426 wrote: Is there anybody out there that has NOT tried overclock settings on their RasPi. Now that would be a short poll! :lol:
I haven't.

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Re: Heat Sinks, Do YOU need them.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:41 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Lob0426 wrote: Is there anybody out there that has NOT tried overclock settings on their RasPi. Now that would be a short poll! :lol:
I haven't.
Poll results so far
no OC 2
OC 1
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Re: Heat Sinks, Do YOU need them.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:21 am

I have. That makes 2 all. :D

Much more interesting, I think, is whether you prefer aluminium or copper heatsink jewellery. I'd love a silver heatsink - just for kicks, but it seems you have to make your own. That'd be fun, but lots of effort. :D
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Re: Heat Sinks, Do YOU need them.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:16 am

I have 3 RPi
all are overclocked
2 have heatsinks
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Re: Heat Sinks, Do YOU need them.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:05 pm

Hi

Two Pis neither overclocked or have heatsinks applied. One cased (ModMyPi) the other awaiting a case.

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Re: Heat Sinks, Do YOU need them.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:07 pm

Lob0426 wrote:T

Knowledgeable Members of the Raspberry Pi Foundation and Design Team have stated they are not needed for the normal operation of the Raspberry Pi device! Some have stated you do not need them for any type of operation of the Raspberry Pi.

So how should you read into this? You shouldn't. If you are using your RasPi within the normal use the foundation foresaw for the device YOU DO NOT NEED Heat Sinks for your RasPi. The BCM2835 was designed to operate within a closed case without any problems.

It is others, and my opinion, that a Raspberry Pi used outside of the foundations "normal" use MAY benefit from heat sinks. Not Need Them, but MAY benefit. Outside "normal use" I will define as Use in a CarPC, A closed case that incorporates other heat generating equipment etc..
I am in complete agreement with your assessment. The key term being "normal operating parameters".

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Re: Heat Sinks, Do YOU need them.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:09 pm

Other users have reported crashes when overvolting and overclocking if not using extra cooling, so the answer is 'YES' if you are overvolting and overcocking and 'NO' if you are not.

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Re: Heat Sinks, Do YOU need them.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:13 pm

mahjongg wrote:heat is good for overclocking, (it speeds up the chip) the only reason to cool them isn't speed but longevity, which isn't really a point of deep consideration for a PI.
Yes, for any normal use you do not need to cool the chips on the PI, unless they get much hotter than a 100 degrees Celsius! (actually about 150 degrees is a firm limit).
Even with overclocking and overvolting you won't be able to do that.

Considerations about the chips getting hot do mostly come about because the chips are "nude", unlike chips in PC's which regularly become much hotter. Simply use a case, (with some vent holes if you are afraid your case will melt), so you cannot touch the chips.
Do you have a link to the data sheet for these temp limits? 100c seems high to me 150c is just crazy. I'm not saying they don't but I have never seen a semiconductor operate correctly at those temps.

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Re: Heat Sinks, Do YOU need them.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:14 pm

A question for those that have stated they haven't overclocked...

Have you tried RaspSBMC or Openelec builds on your Raspberry Pi's? ;)
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Re: Heat Sinks, Do YOU need them.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:19 pm

RaspBMC by default overclocks to 800MHz which is a non issue.

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Re: Heat Sinks, Do YOU need them.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:33 pm

My point is that anyone who says they have never overclocked their Raspberry Pi, might actually have overclocked it by virtue of running an XBMC build even just once.
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Re: Heat Sinks, Do YOU need them.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:43 pm

I suspect that intermittent problems could develop over time if chronicly overclocking/volting - the Pi won't instantly melt into a puddle or burst into flames.

My unerstanding is that cooling can help you snatch that extra 100Mhz above 1000Mhz - I suspect that pushing th Pi hard like this over long periods of time without cooling.could cause problems.

I dont really buy the 'heat is good' argument - it increases electrical resistance and accelerates component degredation.

Over-volting would not void your waranty otherwise.

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Re: Heat Sinks, Do YOU need them.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:53 pm

Mortimer wrote:A question for those that have stated they haven't overclocked...

Have you tried RaspSBMC or Openelec builds on your Raspberry Pi's? ;)
Hi

No

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Re: Heat Sinks, Do YOU need them.

Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:36 pm

I don't know if there is a poll add inj set up for this board, but it could be. I had one on my PHPBB2.

Poll results so far
Overclock:
no OC 5
OC 5 plus whoever installed XBMC. ;)

Heat Sinks:
No Heat Sinks 2
Heat Sinks 4 (Just received two more RasPii the Heat Sinks are right here so counts up to 5)

So far all of these Raspii are testing out at
arm_freq=850
gpu_freq=320
sdram_freq=500
No Overvolt
Seems like these are about a good starting point for most people. gpu_freq seems to be the touchiest. All ran Quake 3 without crashing for a while so far. OpenArena seems to be touchier than Quake 3 is also. If the menu does not lopad you are having gpu_freq troubles with it. Need to load it on the non-HF wheezy and try it. HF-wheezy will not run it. Some are having trouble with sdram_freq also.
It would be interesting to see If heat sinks really are making a difference for just a little more Overclock. I might just leave them off of one RasPi, until I reach an overclocking barrier and then put them on to see if it gets me a little more. So Heat Sinks is at 4
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Re: Heat Sinks, Do YOU need them.

Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:44 am

Why do people feel the need to overclock/volt ?

Is it a macho thing?

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Re: Heat Sinks, Do YOU need them.

Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:10 am

FX4 wrote: Do you have a link to the data sheet for these temp limits? 100c seems high to me 150c is just crazy. I'm not saying they don't but I have never seen a semiconductor operate correctly at those temps.
Yes, I can, (not a datasheet, but more generic a "white paper" about the subject) you can find an example of an absolute maximum temperature for silicon devices for example here:
http://www.interfacebus.com/Integrated- ... Guide.html

Obviously operating any practical device at such temperature is most often absurd, and such temperature limits are only practical in very special cases, like deep sea oil drilling installations.

In practice, there is a concept called "derating" that also is applicable for digital electronic devices, and can be used for temperature related subjects, the above link will give some information about that too.

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Re: Heat Sinks, Do YOU need them.

Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:29 am

pygmy_giant wrote:Why do people feel the need to overclock/volt ?

Is it a macho thing?
Nope just a search for a little more performance. Tools are meant to be tested.
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Re: Heat Sinks, Do YOU need them.

Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:08 am

It is 8 pm here in Susanville and it is 76 F inside with the cooler is at full and 88 F outside when I got into my truck at 6 pm the inside temperature according to the truck was 143 F inside the vehicle and 94 F outside so If I install my Pi in the truck it certainly would not hurt to at least heat-sink it.
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