emma1997
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Re: A Plea for Flash memory in Pi3

Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:18 pm

bstrobl wrote:Maybe use a highly polished up Raspbian with a ton of extra software
We already have that... I think it's called "Jessie". For that matter maybe close to describing Jessie Lite too. I don't think it's a good idea forcing people even further down the bloat boat route by building it in. What happens when a few months go by and everything is outdated and unusable. If anything a more reasonable starting point might be a truly minimal version like Minibian which contains only the basics to allow apt-getting anything else.

IMO the current setup is perfect. Those who want everything including the kitchen sink can plug that in. Those who don't can put in just what they need.

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r3d4
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Re: A Plea for Flash memory in Pi3

Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:08 pm

bstrobl wrote: Once a micro sd card is inserted, that part of the chip gets deactivated to reduce security issues and keep the "everything must be hackable with no blobs" group happy.
:lol:

Who would be so foolish to think that Everything must be hackable ;

When some one else is capable of solving their problems!
Last edited by r3d4 on Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Kratos
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Re: A Plea for Flash memory in Pi3

Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:12 pm

In 5 (3, don't do math after you wake up... :roll: :oops: ) years of using three different pi's, all with different SD cards, and after countless power plug pulls; I have never had an SD card corrupt.

Kratos
Last edited by Kratos on Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I have posted mostly with a Pi 2 running either Ubuntu MATE, or Raspbian.

emma1997
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Re: A Plea for Flash memory in Pi3

Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:39 pm

Less than one year but in charge of setting up a large group of students I've seen 2 cards bricked. One permanently and another needed reflashing. It happened when SD was accidentally removed while writing. Writing occurs a tiny fraction of the time so very rare in normal use but our datalogging apps constantly write so more likely.

For my own setup I don't hesitate to power down without permission but make sure the ACT led ain't blinking.

The nasty habit of popping out of that push-push socket don't help. Too bad it dont have the same type as Zero which is not only cheaper but safer.

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TimG
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Re: A Plea for Flash memory in Pi3

Sun Dec 13, 2015 3:02 pm

emma1997 wrote:In most "Mega" series the SPM instruction must reside in RWW section but can be called from anywhere in memory.
I disagree that Arduinos are subject to flash corruption in the same way that RPis are. The Arduino bootloader can be called from the application, but it requires specially crafted code. Hardly something you can do by accident. No normal application ever writes to flash, making it virtually immune to corruption.

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bstrobl
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Re: A Plea for Flash memory in Pi3

Sun Dec 13, 2015 3:20 pm

emma1997 wrote:
We already have that... I think it's called "Jessie". For that matter maybe close to describing Jessie Lite too. I don't think it's a good idea forcing people even further down the bloat boat route by building it in. What happens when a few months go by and everything is outdated and unusable. If anything a more reasonable starting point might be a truly minimal version like Minibian which contains only the basics to allow apt-getting anything else.

IMO the current setup is perfect. Those who want everything including the kitchen sink can plug that in. Those who don't can put in just what they need.
Imagine the following scenario: You are in a struggling community where power is only supplied by a generator which drops out every once in a while. Having SD card corruption would become a rather large problem in that case since you might not have any chance of reflashing it due to a lack of computers etc.

As it stands you are partially correct, Jessie has become rather bloated. Things such as the Wolfram Engine would not have to be included in a ROM based OS. However certain usefull programs should definitely be put in. Basic tools like document editing and simple media playback (not the scientific stuff or things that heavily rely on an internet connection) to get you quickly up and running might be a good solution. A simple browser and webserver combination to allow hosting of a wiki from a flash drive for example would help communities to brush up on their skills. Outdated packages would not be such a major issue if you are not going to plug it into the internet.

I suppose the point here is that areas with poor infrastructure and lacking knowledge would profit the most from this. A lot of people simply want to use the Pi as an appliance and would not put up with it if it were very unreliable.

emma1997
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Re: A Plea for Flash memory in Pi3

Sun Dec 13, 2015 3:30 pm

It's true that few Tarduinos make use of the flash write libraries and therefor bricking for that reason is less common. However that leaves many thousands of us who do write flash and in those cases SD seems to be considerably more secure for hardware reasons.

Even for the majority of users who don't write if there is an SPM instruction anywhere in memory then slow supply rise/fall times can also corrupt the chip. Proper setting of BOD minimizes that but unfortunately standard Arduino IDE deactivates that for some strange reason.

I use both Arduino and Rpi and work with many others who use both also and see cases of corruption on both platforms.
TimG wrote:The Arduino bootloader can be called from the application, but it requires specially crafted code.
Technically you can't actually "call the bootloader" from user code but a special routine can be put in RWW that is callable. Note that "boot area" and "RWW section" can overlap but are not the same thing. Personally I always use ISP and never serial bootloaders which IMO are a silly ritual that caught on and like an ex-lover just won't let go.

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Re: A Plea for Flash memory in Pi3

Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:11 pm

Kratos wrote:In five years of using three different pi's, all with different SD cards, and after countless power plug pulls; I have never had an SD card corrupt.
How many years is it since February 2012? Were you an early adopter? It's going to be a bit less than five years.
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Re: A Plea for Flash memory in Pi3

Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:18 pm

DougieLawson wrote:
Kratos wrote:In five years of using three different pi's, all with different SD cards, and after countless power plug pulls; I have never had an SD card corrupt.
How many years is it since February 2012? Were you an early adopter? It's going to be a bit less than five years.
4 years next Feb 29th.
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Re: A Plea for Flash memory in Pi3

Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:38 pm

Kratos wrote:In five years of using three different pi's, all with different SD cards, and after countless power plug pulls; I have never had an SD card corrupt.
What file system were you using? Did you have journalling enabled. Did you have swap enabled on the flash card? If people want to minimise issues, they should be discussing these factors to see which ones minimise issues. Just saying that you've never had the problems is unhelpful because clearly many people have and are having the corruption problems.

toxibunny
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Re: A Plea for Flash memory in Pi3

Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:54 pm

I think it would have been cool if there was a small amount of flash on the pi zero, letting it be used like a microcontroller.
note: I may or may not know what I'm talking about...

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davidcoton
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Re: A Plea for Flash memory in Pi3

Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:58 pm

toxibunny wrote:I think it would have been cool if there was a small amount of flash on the pi zero, letting it be used like a microcontroller.
But it would no longer be a $5 computer.
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Re: A Plea for Flash memory in Pi3

Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:59 pm

toxibunny wrote:I think it would have been cool if there was a small amount of flash on the pi zero, letting it be used like a microcontroller.
more features, more money - pi zero is all about reducing price (to near zero)
Android app - Raspi Card Imager - download and image SD cards - No PC required !

stderr
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Re: A Plea for Flash memory in Pi3

Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:11 pm

mikerr wrote:
toxibunny wrote:I think it would have been cool if there was a small amount of flash on the pi zero, letting it be used like a microcontroller.
more features, more money - pi zero is all about reducing price (to near zero)
Just name it something else. Everyone is going for the low end but the low end isn't the pi Zero, it's your Christmas three with 250 LED lights that each have their own ip address and can be set to any colour, brightness and blink rate. Or it's someone releasing a USB flash drive with its onboard 8051 available for business. The low end is really measured in pennies.

But there's more than that, there's the secure system that can flexibly boot from whatever you want to boot from. Why not include a jumper protected flash chip that would start out as an instant boot system as well as supporting network boot? Right now, as far as I can tell, there is no way to protect your flash drive from being written to by a compromised system, therefore rebooting won't clear threats. This sort of board hits a market that is currently not served at all as far as I can tell.

emma1997
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Re: A Plea for Flash memory in Pi3

Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:54 pm

stderr wrote: Why not include a jumper protected flash chip that would start out as an instant boot system
Because that would violate the fundamental principle of making things as slow, bloated, and complicated as possible. :)

Personally I don't see what the difference is compared to implementing the same thing on a read only SD setup. Any concerns about gremlins sneaking in middle of the night and swapping the card are easily handled with a dab of cyanoacrylate.

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Re: A Plea for Flash memory in Pi3

Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:02 pm

stderr,
...Christmas three with 250 LED lights that each have their own ip address and can be set to any colour, brightness and blink rate...
Cool, where can I get some?
Last edited by Heater on Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Kratos
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Re: A Plea for Flash memory in Pi3

Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:59 pm

stderr wrote:
Kratos wrote:In five years of using three different pi's, all with different SD cards, and after countless power plug pulls; I have never had an SD card corrupt.
What file system were you using? Did you have journalling enabled. Did you have swap enabled on the flash card? If people want to minimise issues, they should be discussing these factors to see which ones minimise issues. Just saying that you've never had the problems is unhelpful because clearly many people have and are having the corruption problems.
Sorry. It was just a normal image on a Samsung EVO card. Nothing special was done.

Kratos
I have posted mostly with a Pi 2 running either Ubuntu MATE, or Raspbian.

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r3d4
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Re: A Plea for Flash memory in Pi3

Mon Dec 14, 2015 7:11 am

Kratos wrote: Sorry.
Please try harder to corrupt your sd card ! :mrgreen:

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solar3000
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Re: A Plea for Flash memory in Pi3

Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:46 pm

Sorry I keep getting the T and the M mixed up in ATMEL. I say it like I spell it too - wrong.
Its hard to say it anyway.
Anyway, you can yank out the power source of an arduino at anytime because its a micro controller not a full computer that boots up and reads and writes.

As many of you have already covered.

And thanks for the translations.
Antikythera

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Kratos
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Re: A Plea for Flash memory in Pi3

Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:23 pm

r3d4 wrote:
Kratos wrote: Sorry.
Please try harder to corrupt your sd card ! :mrgreen:
I've actually tried to do this on three different cards, each when the yellow led was lit on the pi. (Don't ask me why :roll: )

Kratos
I have posted mostly with a Pi 2 running either Ubuntu MATE, or Raspbian.

emma1997
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Re: A Plea for Flash memory in Pi3

Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:52 pm

solar3000 wrote:Sorry I keep getting the T and the M mixed up in ATMEL. I say it like I spell it too - wrong.
Its hard to say it anyway.
Anyway, you can yank out the power source of an arduino at anytime because its a micro controller not a full computer that boots up and reads and writes.
Not true. Removing power during a write can brick the chip. Same for just about all storage including hard drive.

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r3d4
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Re: A Plea for Flash memory in Pi3

Wed Dec 16, 2015 7:44 pm

Greg Erskine wrote:Hi r3d4,
Does tcl = tiny core linux?
Hi! Greg
Yep i mean that core/tiny linux :D
and not Tool Command Language.

---- less is mo ----

leiptrstormr
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Re: A Plea for Flash memory in Pi3

Thu Dec 17, 2015 2:44 am

bstrobl wrote:What would actually be kind of neat is an operating system installed in some embedded ROM on the SoC with a very basic linux system. It might not be changeable but it would allow basic use of the Pi if no card is available. Once a micro sd card is inserted, that part of the chip gets deactivated to reduce security issues and keep the "everything must be hackable with no blobs" group happy.
You can use RAM as the writable file system and have everything returned to a previous uncorrupted state once the power is cut. The OS would still need to be flashable to fix bugs and security holes found after release. I don't see a point in having embedded flash on RPi when they're trying to keep cost to a minimum. Yes, it is nice, but it isn't necessary.

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