jamesh
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Re: No OS news?

Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:23 am

Benedict White said:


JamesH said:


We need to provide something that people can put on their SD cards and make the device work. We only want to have to download, build, run , check and generally sanity  check one distro - that takes long enough. Now multiply that up by all the distros people might want. Not going to happen, it would take much too long. So, one distro, and perhaps two or three SD images for different purposes seems to way to go.


Thing is, if there is more than one distro, you can get people using that distro to run the tests for you, and odds are, you will end up with a larger team with more combined experience. That way, people can choose what they want on their SD cards, and or change as they learn. For example, Arch is generally for more experienced users who like to tinker, make their own packages etc. Can be set up to run for non users, but then maybe Fedora would be better for a first timer.

The way you are looking at the problem seems to be using open source without wishing to leverage its biggest strength, numbers willing to help. (Including myself on Arch incidentally)


I'm not denying that community support is vital, and the community is absolutely encourage to go off and get whatever distro they like working, and people are perfectly entittled to use whatever distro they want.

What the foundation DONT want to do is support all those distros in house. If others want to support them, then that is fine.  It means the foundation can say, "I'm sorry, that educational software we provided has never been tested on that distro. We know it works on ours. You can either use ours, or go to the people who provided your distro and they will help you fix the problem". If a particular distribution is willing to take on that support burden, go for it.
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lyzby
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Re: No OS news?

Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:57 pm

>So, one distro

It's getting close to January crunch time--is the one distro debian?

pepedog
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Re: No OS news?

Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:15 pm

As the only Archlinux person with a board, I find myself upset with this. I spent months working on the board. Maybe this explains why no one answered my emails.
Going by other boards, we don"t expect manufacturers to fix software, just hardware support.

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liz
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Re: No OS news?

Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:19 pm

Pepedog - which address were you emailing? Info@ has been so overwhelmed that we can't keep on top of it, but I thought you had my and Eben's addresses?
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pepedog
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Re: No OS news?

Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:25 pm

[[redacted]] <- Liz, modding the night away.
Plus PM"d here to you both.

Benedict White
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Re: No OS news?

Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:26 pm

pepedog said:


As the only Archlinux person with a board, I find myself upset with this. I spent months working on the board. Maybe this explains why no one answered my emails.
Going by other boards, we don"t expect manufacturers to fix software, just hardware support.


No your not. I don't use the Arm version but have been using it since 2002 ish. You are not alone!

Benedict White
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Re: No OS news?

Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:28 pm

JamesH said:


What the foundation DONT want to do is support all those distros in house. If others want to support them, then that is fine.  It means the foundation can say, "I'm sorry, that educational software we provided has never been tested on that distro. We know it works on ours. You can either use ours, or go to the people who provided your distro and they will help you fix the problem". If a particular distribution is willing to take on that support burden, go for it.


I suspect we are not going to agree on this one...

pepedog
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Re: No OS news?

Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:50 pm

I stronly agree with BW. On the alarm site we get (and answer) specific software and config problems (config of the software that is). If no resoloution, we refer them to the support or forum of that software. If the software is of closed source, that's a different matter. To go from different distros can be downloaded to Highlander is a jolt, but we will survive.

jamesh
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Re: No OS news?

Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:02 pm

So what would you have the foundation do? We don't have the facilities to support in house more than one, but we welcome people who are doing others. I can't see what else can be done here. We cannot guarantee work done by other people, and we cannot do the work ourselves - lack of time and people. But, as I said, we welcome people who want to produce their own distributions. But, as I say, we cannot guarantee stuff will work on anything but our own one, as we won't have tested it.

So, what is to be done? What do people doing their own distro's want? Do you want the foundation to take on the support cost for YOUR distro? Or take YOUR distro and test it with Foundation software? Call me naive but I think those responsibilities lie with the distro producer, not the foundation.

Now, anyone producing a distro who needs technical help getting it going  -that's a different matter, and where possible I reckon the foundation will help out.
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Benedict White
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Re: No OS news?

Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:09 pm

JamesH said:


So what would you have the foundation do? We don't have the facilities to support in house more than one, but we welcome people who are doing others. I can't see what else can be done here. We cannot guarantee work done by other people, and we cannot do the work ourselves - lack of time and people. But, as I said, we welcome people who want to produce their own distributions. But, as I say, we cannot guarantee stuff will work on anything but our own one, as we won't have tested it.

So, what is to be done? What do people doing their own distro's want? Do you want the foundation to take on the support cost for YOUR distro? Or take YOUR distro and test it with Foundation software? Call me naive but I think those responsibilities lie with the distro producer, not the foundation.

Now, anyone producing a distro who needs technical help getting it going  -that's a different matter, and where possible I reckon the foundation will help out.


Well, if you are producing your own custom distro, based on XYZ, you can test it and own the problems. Otherwise you can't because something may happen that fixes someone else's problem but breaks another. In short I am not sure you should be supporting anyone's distro in particular unless it's your own version of either someone else's or just built from the ground up.

Mind you I am curious to know what sort of support the foundation intends on supplying. Your natural competitor (RM) is expensive (so I have heard, not used them) and I can't see any margin for support in the price, and if it's paid for support, that is a whole different kettle of fish as far as support requirements go.

I would go with community support.

I suspect we are not going to agree on that either!

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liz
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Re: No OS news?

Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:14 pm

I've redacted Eben's personal email address above.

Pepedog: I'm very sorry that nobody got back to you to help, but I read the stuff that you were having trouble with, and it was not something that you should have needed help with, and wasn't stuff that you needed Raspberry Pi-specific info to deal with.

Right now, we're late. We're late because we have more to deal with at the moment than ten people can deal with, so we're giving all our resources to getting the boards out, and have been for a few months now. We reply to all the emails we can, but we all get more than we can answer every day, so if it's about something we know we can't help with directly (or that's already answered in the FAQ - PLEASE read the FAQ, everyone), we end up sticking it in a folder of stuff to answer later. I know some of the folks here think all we're dealing is forum database stuff and making the website pretty, so if we don't get back immediately, it's personal. It's not. I'm up to my elbows in factory resourcing, printers, case design, PR, a bajillion newspapers, investors, envelope stuffing, banks, employment agencies, logistics companies, resellers - *and* it's Christmas. If you don't get a response to an email, it's really not personal. I am just a bit thinly spread at the moment. The situation for Eben is even worse.

We have not been giving preferential treatment to any distros; we *have* had more interest and support from some distros than others (some distros we approached have only had one person asking for an alpha board back in the summer, and some didn't ask for any at all, while others brought tens of developers to meetings with us and have put big teams on Raspi spins), and although it's not up to me, I'm sure that'll inform the decision on what we lead with. We want you guys to port absolutely anything you want to the device; we want it to work for everyone who wants one, but if you want a specific distro, you'll have to support it yourself and do the heavy lifting yourselves.
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pepedog
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Re: No OS news?

Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:17 am

I just posted here, don't know what happened to it?

Benedict White
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Re: No OS news?

Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:26 am

pepedog said:


I just posted here, don't know what happened to it?


I've PM'd you here.. (and on the Arm Archlinux forum).

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liz
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Re: No OS news?

Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:30 am

We haven't deleted anything (as far as I know) - can you please try again?
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Tomo2k
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Re: No OS news?

Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:46 am

The site looks very overloaded to me, so patience please!

Liz, Eben, JamesH, and the rest of the Foundation – I am astounded by your patience and hard work and am really looking forward to having one of these devices in my hands.

Thank you very much, and keep up the good work.

jamesh
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Re: No OS news?

Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:30 am

Benedict White said:


JamesH said:


So what would you have the foundation do? We don't have the facilities to support in house more than one, but we welcome people who are doing others. I can't see what else can be done here. We cannot guarantee work done by other people, and we cannot do the work ourselves - lack of time and people. But, as I said, we welcome people who want to produce their own distributions. But, as I say, we cannot guarantee stuff will work on anything but our own one, as we won't have tested it.

So, what is to be done? What do people doing their own distro's want? Do you want the foundation to take on the support cost for YOUR distro? Or take YOUR distro and test it with Foundation software? Call me naive but I think those responsibilities lie with the distro producer, not the foundation.

Now, anyone producing a distro who needs technical help getting it going  -that's a different matter, and where possible I reckon the foundation will help out.


Well, if you are producing your own custom distro, based on XYZ, you can test it and own the problems. Otherwise you can't because something may happen that fixes someone else's problem but breaks another. In short I am not sure you should be supporting anyone's distro in particular unless it's your own version of either someone else's or just built from the ground up.

Mind you I am curious to know what sort of support the foundation intends on supplying. Your natural competitor (RM) is expensive (so I have heard, not used them) and I can't see any margin for support in the price, and if it's paid for support, that is a whole different kettle of fish as far as support requirements go.

I would go with community support.

I suspect we are not going to agree on that either!


We are going to need to provide a distribution with the device. That needs to work with all the extensions and extra software needed to take advantage of the GPU and provide the educational side of things. If you provide it, you need to provide the support for it, that community support cannot give (i.e. the more technical or software specific stuff). Just relying on community support would be insufficient in that case. Take a look at Ubuntu - lots of community support outside the Ubuntu website, but for real specific support you need to go to the Ubuntu site and hope someone from Ubuntu helps out - and you still may not find an answer. For EduRaspi (tm) people won't want to *hope* they get support, they will NEED it. The community, good though it is, by its very nature cannot provide on demand support. That will need to come from Raspi. And more than one official distro make that support MUCH harder.
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bodger
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Re: No OS news?

Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:18 pm

team of ten ! wow you must be flat out just dealing with the educational side of stuff alone (the main reason for the project ?) i commented earlier that i was looking forward to having a linux box with an operating system that was written for it and a one stop shop for answers but to be honest at the price your charging i dont expect anymore than a working unit and a list of supported or recommended peripherals.

at this price you could be bringing computers into the homes of people who may never have had one before so a single stable release is a must imho.

without wanting to add to your workload maybe a utube channel with vids of basics like setting up a (recommended) wireless dongle or printer ? might ultimately save some time.

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Jessie
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Re: No OS news?

Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:04 pm

bodger said:


without wanting to add to your workload maybe a utube channel with vids of basics like setting up a (recommended) wireless dongle or printer ? might ultimately save some time.


There already is a Youtube channel setup by one of our forum users.  Right now it just focuses on setting up things on a simular setup.  I'm sure once the R-Pi becomes avalible it will get updated with percisely what you are suggesting.

pepedog
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Re: No OS news?

Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:55 pm

JamesH said:


So what would you have the foundation do? We don't have the facilities to support in house more than one


So it looks like the FAQ is wrong?


What Linux distros will be supported at launch?
Debian, Fedora and ArchLinux will be supported from the start.


ArchLinux will be supporting Raspberry Pi

However, I am totally fuming at the PM system here and will have no truck with it

congo181
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Re: No OS news?

Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:56 pm

Evening all - my first post so be kind

I've looked through all the FAQs, Wikis etc and ended up with this thread to answer my immediate question.

I for one very much hope that there will be an 'official' OS.  Why? Cos I will be on a learning journey with the RasPi which is I believe the intended pupose.  As such, I want to have certain things uncomplicated.

I did some initial searches to find if I could d/l the OS and perhaps compile some programs ahead of the h/w release.  Not being familiar with Linux, the first thing I found was that there are at least 3 version that may or may come with the unit.

That immediately makes me have to stop on my journey before I've even started.

This project is not about the pros and cons of which OS Kernel to use surely?  Whilst its great that all the tech-heads will undoubtebly be able to use many diffrent versions (I even see someone saying they want to install XP) the wider community and for sure the educational establishments will want to be using a common platform.

I'm not looking to be spoon fed, nor do I want the options to be limited for others (which it wont). What I want is for my options to be limited to an officialy sanctioned route during my initial learning process.

For these reasons, I await with interest the official naming of the OS that will be supported by the developers so I can move forward with my startup.

Oh, and I congratulate them too!  What an endeavour.

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liz
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Re: No OS news?

Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:06 pm

We will be giving the official blessing to one distro for teaching purposes (we have to do this - if the Raspberry Pi is to be used as a teaching platform, it's important everybody is able to start using the same tools). I can't say which it is yet, because we are still thrashing through the legals. So don't worry; you won't be pointed to three at once. At the same time, though, other distros are being ported (and we expect to see some more shortly after launch). It's important that people can pick and choose, and we want to support as many as possible; some have different needs and preferences from others.

In the end, the Raspberry Pi is just a Linux box. If you can try to think of it like that, rather than as something special and different, you'll have a firmer idea of where we're coming from.
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kme
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Re: No OS news?

Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:20 pm

congo181 said:

For these reasons, I await with interest the official naming of the OS that will be supported by the developers so I can move forward with my startup.


You are making up problems here. Your choice of Linux variant won't mean a thing for you. You'll use the same compiler, same editor, same IDE, same debugger no matter which choice you make.

The difference is about the level of going to your local pub and ask if Ford or Vauxhall/Opel is better. Everyone will have an opinion but your wife will think "Jesus... - it's a car, damn it"

Benedict White
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Re: No OS news?

Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:57 pm

kme said:


congo181 said:


For these reasons, I await with interest the official naming of the OS that will be supported by the developers so I can move forward with my startup.


You are making up problems here. Your choice of Linux variant won't mean a thing for you. You'll use the same compiler, same editor, same IDE, same debugger no matter which choice you make.

The difference is about the level of going to your local pub and ask if Ford or Vauxhall/Opel is better. Everyone will have an opinion but your wife will think "Jesus... - it's a car, damn it"


Actually it's more akin to road surface type and layout types. (Like how roundabouts work).

The car (IDE etc) works the same, and there are some that swear one is better than the other. The road, and the way it works is at a lower level. So congo181 can pick what ever car he wants. To be fair, he should also get a choice of road type. Try impressing the wife over the finer points of that.

mattauckland
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Re: No OS news?

Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:50 am

Hi, Does anyone know if there is Google Chrome OS support? Would seem like an ideal OS for this device. Also a Boxee OS build would be nice too

And maybe I'm wrong, but if Windows 8 is having ARM support for tablet devices, then won't it run on Raspberry as well?

kme
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Re: No OS news?

Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:55 am

mattauckland said:

And maybe I'm wrong, but if Windows 8 is having ARM support for tablet devices, then won't it run on Raspberry as well?
In 256 MB RAM? Ehh, no...

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