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expandables
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Re: Raspberry pi zero equivalent with Ethernet

Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:06 pm

K3z1 sounds like a very cheap person :lol:
:twisted:
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I got the PI model B, B+ and PI 2 model B.
When will I get the A? I don't know.

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Re: Raspberry pi zero equivalent with Ethernet

Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:11 pm

its indeed possible to add wired ethernet to the PI Zero with a small PCB containing either a Microchip ENC28J60 or the fractionally more expensive but faster KSZ8851SNL IC. in large numbers the price of both chips sink to $2 levels, and you only need a crystal and a magnetics jack and a few passive components to create a functional Ethernet interface.
Such an adapter can be sold for say $4, and I expect them to appear very soon, now that there seems to be a demand for them.

I think it was rather smart of the RPF NOT to add one permanently to the board, as yes, not everybody will need Ethernet.

If you want to use the zero to create a robot, or as a game console, or as any of a thousand other use cases, you do not need it.

If you must have it, adding it will be trivial.

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Re: Raspberry pi zero equivalent with Ethernet

Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:13 pm

DougieLawson wrote:
morphy_richards wrote:One thing I always wonder about, does ethernet really need such big bulky rubbish plugs? 8
Blame the folks who hijacked their AT&T telephone wiring to use for their ethernet network. If you think RJ45 is bulky you should look at BNC connectors and co-ax cables that were used for 10base2. 10baseT was a vast improvement on that.
Shivers...remembering trying to find where a connector had gone faulty or a user had removed the terminator from the circuit. Not fun.

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Re: Raspberry pi zero equivalent with Ethernet

Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:15 pm

mahjongg wrote:If you want to use the zero to create a robot, or as a game console, or as any of a thousand other use cases, you do not need it..
What if I want to connect the, say hypothetically here, the seven computers that run my robot together so they can communicate with each other? Ethernet would be what I'd use.

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Re: Raspberry pi zero equivalent with Ethernet

Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:19 pm

alexeames wrote: The Pi Zero is about getting the price down as much as it can possibly be reduced. THAT IS THE ENTIRE POINT. So there is nothing on that board that doesn't have to be there. If you add a bulkier connector to the design. EVERYONE has to pay for it when they don't need to.
Ok, but if it's useless what's the point in doing that?

This is a niche product, if you made an intermediate version with only ethernet and one usb, even without gpio, you'll make a way more useful product, for everyone that runs something headless and want to strip down the price, AFAIK there are no boards under $10 that do this, if you know one let me know.

I can't find a common use-case for this Zero board, except showing the same video over again on the hdmi because you can't communicate with it.

It is so cheap as it's pointless.

Just look at the comments in tech sites, half of the people is commenting about the lack of internet connectivity and the fact that you need a mess of adapters to make it work correctly. Pointless.

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Re: Raspberry pi zero equivalent with Ethernet

Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:32 pm

stderr wrote:No one seems to have a plug splitter that makes available 4 wires for one network and 4 wires for another so you could use one network cable for two NICs. So there's room for a lot still.
Have you even looked ? cable economizers have been available for many years:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/TWIN-Network-Sp ... 0039OOEYM/
only on 100M though - won't work at gigabit as that uses all 8 wires.
Last edited by mikerr on Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Raspberry pi zero equivalent with Ethernet

Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:37 pm

C´mon guys, don´t you get it?????? The problem here is that the OP (and others I guess) don´t realize that what we´re getting here is basically a more powerful A+ at a lower price (and smaller). It´s an A+ with a faster processor (well, the same processor running faster) and more RAM (because as far as I remember the A+ has only 256MB, right?). So it should be thougth of as a replacement for (or an alternative to) an A+. Even if you have to buy aditional things (like adapters and pins) to make it useful for some very specific purposes, it will still be cheaper than an A+ and more powerful. But if you are expecting this 5 dollar computer it to be able to replace a Pi 2, well....that´s not the foundation´s fault.

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Re: Raspberry pi zero equivalent with Ethernet

Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:48 pm

Tzarls wrote:C´mon guys, don´t you get it?????? The problem here is that the OP (and others I guess) don´t realize that what we´re getting here is basically a more powerful A+ at a lower price (and smaller). It´s an A+ with a faster processor (well, the same processor running faster) and more RAM (because as far as I remember the A+ has only 256MB, right?). So it should be thougth of as a replacement for (or an alternative to) an A+. Even if you have to buy aditional things (like adapters and pins) to make it useful for some very specific purposes, it will still be cheaper than an A+ and more powerful. But if you are expecting this 5 dollar computer it to be able to replace a Pi 2, well....that´s not the foundation´s fault.
The OP is complaining about price to feature ratio LOL in my country $5 can barely buy food!
:twisted:
By thinking like an engineer you can create a raspberry pi.
Michael Jackson enthusiast.
I got the PI model B, B+ and PI 2 model B.
When will I get the A? I don't know.

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Re: Raspberry pi zero equivalent with Ethernet

Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:59 pm

Well, around here you can have a semi-decent lunch for 5$. And I´m not talking about fast food. Even then, you can have a Burger King for 5$! :lol:

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Re: Raspberry pi zero equivalent with Ethernet

Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:03 am

K3z1 wrote:
alexeames wrote: The Pi Zero is about getting the price down as much as it can possibly be reduced. THAT IS THE ENTIRE POINT. So there is nothing on that board that doesn't have to be there. If you add a bulkier connector to the design. EVERYONE has to pay for it when they don't need to.
Ok, but if it's useless what's the point in doing that?

This is a niche product.
It may be useless to you and that's OK. Don't buy one. But the fact that everyone has sold out today means that probably at least 25,000 units of this "useless niche computer" have sold in less than 24 hours. :D

I don't think there's much more to add except to say that it's not mine. I don't work for RPF, although they are good friends of mine.
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Re: Raspberry pi zero equivalent with Ethernet

Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:13 am

K3z1 wrote:
alexeames wrote: The Pi Zero is about getting the price down as much as it can possibly be reduced. THAT IS THE ENTIRE POINT. So there is nothing on that board that doesn't have to be there. If you add a bulkier connector to the design. EVERYONE has to pay for it when they don't need to.
Ok, but if it's useless what's the point in doing that?

This is a niche product...
No, it's aimed at education, the Foundation's raison d'etre. Low cost is everything. Admittedly it's now so low that the cost of a screen, keyboard, mouse, PSU, and SD Card totally outweigh the cost of the board ... and the target audience (people who want to try programming on a tight budget) may not already have these peripherals. But apparently lots of people have bought them -- no stock left on the first day, so they don't think it's useless.

I don't expect to buy one, unless I find a use and time to implement a Pi0 solution. I have a Pi1 B project to finish, then a Pi B+ project in mind. After that maybe RPF will have resolved the "way forward (and upward)" which seems to need a new SoC whilst retaining compatibility -- if the resulting feature set and price suit, I'll buy. Otherwise not. But I won't moan at the Foundation for not implementing MY spec. I'm not in their core target group.

I do think there is room in the market for a Pi0B with ethernet (and ideally an RTC :D ). If, as seems likely, it comes as an add-on board at about $3 to $4 that's fine, and probably makes more sense in terms of manufacturing scale.
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Re: Raspberry pi zero equivalent with Ethernet

Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:17 am

I'm really surprised that no one has pointed out that the real problem is that you CAN'T add ethernet without doing one of the following:
  1. Changing the SOC (note that there are at least two possible interpretations of the word "Change" here - see below)
  2. Eliminating the one single USB port from being used for any other purpose.
The second is obviously a non-starter. The first is generally treated as a non-starter, but consider this: The RPi B2 came about because somehow, as if by magic, the Foundation was able to change the SOC. They added 3 more cores, doubled the RAM limit and perhaps 1 or two other things that I'm forgetting at the moment.

Now, why am I bringing this up? Because, and I could be wrong about this, but certainly to a first approximation and in the mind of the typical man-on-the-street, it is a lot harder to add 3 more cores and/or double the RAM limit on a chip than it would be to add another USB header. Thus, it seems odd to me that they didn't do that. Doing that would have made it a lot easier (in many, many ways) for an ethernet port to be standard equipment.

And, of course, one could go further with this and ask why not just add on-board ethernet rather than forcing ethernet via USB...
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.

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Re: Raspberry pi zero equivalent with Ethernet

Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:34 am

If you want such a specific board then design it yourself. No? Can you show me a similar $6 computer like the Pi Zero with Ethernet? No? Is there anything you can do about it? No? Well then please stop complaining.
There are 10 types of people: those who understand binary and those who don't.

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Re: Raspberry pi zero equivalent with Ethernet

Fri Nov 27, 2015 1:15 am

mikerr wrote:Have you even looked ?
No, I didn't look recently. Thanks for what seems to be a correct example of what I was asking about.
cable economizers have been available for many years:
Certainly there are ways to do this including making them yourself but in the past when I was looking on Amazon, I found examples like the following: http://www.amazon.co.uk/RJ45-Ethernet-S ... 20-1109335
#
Convert and increase your Ethernet connections from 1 to 2 sockets.
Increase the number of RJ45 network connections on an RJ45 outlet.
8 pins wire RJ-45T adapter, parallel wiring.
#
Comments on the "device" include:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/forum/-/TxHUXUO ... B004SJXRP4
#
Will this allow me to connect a printer and a laptop to one ethernet cable from my router?

Yes. But will not work if both are switched on at same time as cannot filter the two signals. The printer or laptop will have to be switched off in order to recieve and send.
#

Isn't that crazy stuff? Yea, I want my ethernet hardware shorted out to my other ethernet hardware. Good grief.

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Re: Raspberry pi zero equivalent with Ethernet

Fri Nov 27, 2015 2:50 am

kusti8 wrote:If you want such a specific board then design it yourself. No?
Why is this the reaction to a discussion about how someone would like a board to be? Connectivity is huge today. In fact, if you look at the Beagle Bone Green, what did they remove? They removed the hdmi because "no one used it".
Can you show me a similar $6 computer like the Pi Zero with Ethernet? No?
I can't even show you a $6 computer, the closest thing to the new pi is some tiny microcontroller. Now if you are willing to go to $8, I hear someone in Oakland has something on kickstarter.

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Re: Raspberry pi zero equivalent with Ethernet

Fri Nov 27, 2015 3:11 am

This isn´t about someone wanting some specific features for a new RPi (we have many of those threads in this board) - this is the reaction to someone stating that the new RPi is useles because it doesn´t fulfill his unrealistic expectations. "Useless toy". "Paperweight" "For now it's an (sic) useless version of arduino".

C´mon, it´s even cheaper than an Arduino Uno clone! :lol:

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Re: Raspberry pi zero equivalent with Ethernet

Fri Nov 27, 2015 3:13 am

stderr wrote:
mikerr wrote:Have you even looked ?
No, I didn't look recently. Thanks for what seems to be a correct example of what I was asking about.
cable economizers have been available for many years:
Certainly there are ways to do this including making them yourself but in the past when I was looking on Amazon, I found examples like the following: http://www.amazon.co.uk/RJ45-Ethernet-S ... 20-1109335
#
Convert and increase your Ethernet connections from 1 to 2 sockets.
Increase the number of RJ45 network connections on an RJ45 outlet.
8 pins wire RJ-45T adapter, parallel wiring.
#
Comments on the "device" include:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/forum/-/TxHUXUO ... B004SJXRP4
#
Will this allow me to connect a printer and a laptop to one ethernet cable from my router?

Yes. But will not work if both are switched on at same time as cannot filter the two signals. The printer or laptop will have to be switched off in order to recieve and send.
#

Isn't that crazy stuff? Yea, I want my ethernet hardware shorted out to my other ethernet hardware. Good grief.
Um, it's a different product. It won't work in the same way as the previously noted splitter, so why would you expect it to?

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Re: Raspberry pi zero equivalent with Ethernet

Fri Nov 27, 2015 3:35 am

Useless? Some one must be kidding!

This is a real board with a ton of power ,prebuilt to drop into something or cheep enough if it dies in a classroom its not any end of the world! Think what Ardunio promises but need to add a lot to it to do the same as this.

This opens up a lot of potential that was hindered by price even of a Raspberry Pi. And how the IO connectors are layout. Very handy. Wish I could have ordered more than 1!

If anyone else want net. Try the one board that uses that socket as a connector. Think it may have it but not sure. And it cost a whole lot more!

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Re: Raspberry pi zero equivalent with Ethernet

Fri Nov 27, 2015 3:59 am

I guess the OP won't be buying one.

If it becomes extremely popular, then companion products will start appearing, however, with adapters or ingenuity there really are no problems now.

Here is a USB wired ethernet + 3 port USB hub:
http://www.dx.com/p/rj45-usb-2-0-networ ... ite-224166

It's $7, plus you'll need a micro-USB adapter:
http://www.dx.com/p/cy-gt-186-ultra-min ... ble-409506

It's $1.88.

You can see why and how the cost was taken out of the BOM to make the Pi Zero.

As for the HDMI, no adapter is needed. Just buy a mini-HDMI M to HDMI M cable of the appropriate length:
http://www.dx.com/p/1-4v-hdmi-male-to-m ... -5m-188925
It's $3 and is 1.5m long.

How about installing a Bluetooth dongle into the USB port? Then you can use a BT mouse, BT keyboard, and maybe you can run your network over BT (my phone seems to support network sharing over BT, but I haven't tried it).

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Re: Raspberry pi zero equivalent with Ethernet

Fri Nov 27, 2015 4:06 am

ame wrote:
Um, it's a different product. It won't work in the same way as the previously noted splitter, so why would you expect it to?
It's a phone type splitter, something that can back fill, like electricity can, being sold for ethernet. Why would I think it was an ethernet splitter when it won't work as that? Well, that's what they are advertising it to do. Oh, you can use it, you just can't have both devices turned on at once. Well, I could just unplug one cable and plug it into another machine and accomplish the same thing.

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Re: Raspberry pi zero equivalent with Ethernet

Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:20 am

stderr wrote:
ame wrote:
Um, it's a different product. It won't work in the same way as the previously noted splitter, so why would you expect it to?
It's a phone type splitter, something that can back fill, like electricity can, being sold for ethernet. Why would I think it was an ethernet splitter when it won't work as that? Well, that's what they are advertising it to do. Oh, you can use it, you just can't have both devices turned on at once. Well, I could just unplug one cable and plug it into another machine and accomplish the same thing.
Indeed you could.

Caveat emptor, as always.

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Re: Raspberry pi zero equivalent with Ethernet

Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:53 am

What we seem to have here is something to compare to the Arduino. Starting with the price.

Neither have Ethernet or WIFI. That does not stop the Arduino being amazingly popular now does it?

Of course a Pi zero can suite a lot of applications that the Arduino does. But you get a huge luxurious space to work in, a massive choice of languages and tools and a lot more speed.

Lack of analog I/O may be a no-no for some applications but then you have the possibility of a touch screen to fulfil others.

All in all a brilliant development. If it does not match your requirements, well, there are tons of other solutions out there.

Me, I'm going to be sticking LoRa wireless modules on them who needs that silly WIFI/Ethernet stuff? :)
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Re: Raspberry pi zero equivalent with Ethernet

Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:00 am

Joe Schmoe wrote:I'm really surprised that no one has pointed out that the real problem is that you CAN'T add ethernet without doing one of the following:
  1. Changing the SOC (note that there are at least two possible interpretations of the word "Change" here - see below)
  2. Eliminating the one single USB port from being used for any other purpose.
The second is obviously a non-starter. The first is generally treated as a non-starter, but consider this: The RPi B2 came about because somehow, as if by magic, the Foundation was able to change the SOC. They added 3 more cores, doubled the RAM limit and perhaps 1 or two other things that I'm forgetting at the moment.

Now, why am I bringing this up? Because, and I could be wrong about this, but certainly to a first approximation and in the mind of the typical man-on-the-street, it is a lot harder to add 3 more cores and/or double the RAM limit on a chip than it would be to add another USB header. Thus, it seems odd to me that they didn't do that. Doing that would have made it a lot easier (in many, many ways) for an ethernet port to be standard equipment.

And, of course, one could go further with this and ask why not just add on-board ethernet rather than forcing ethernet via USB...
3. Adding a USB hub, like is done on board in the B, B+ or pi2.
Doug.
Building Management Systems Engineer.

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Re: Raspberry pi zero equivalent with Ethernet

Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:05 am

3. Adding a USB hub, like is done on board in the B, B+ or pi2.
Yes, true. For completeness, I should have added that that also suffers from two liabilities:

1) It's already been done. I.e., you go down that route and your might as well be buying one of the other Pis.

2) You'll be sharing bandwidth - i.e., if your goal is a NAS (which ISTR was where the OP was headed), then you'll be putting both the ethernet and the HDD on the same USB bus.
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.

(One of the best lines I've seen on this board lately)

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Re: Raspberry pi zero equivalent with Ethernet

Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:08 am

4. add an SPI based Ethernet connection.

I've got one at home that I had been meaning to add to an A+ to make a NAS box (now it will obviously go onto a 0)
Doug.
Building Management Systems Engineer.

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