hamster
Posts: 23
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Re: Using the board for commercial projects.

Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:14 am

I can instantly where RaspPi could be the basis of an excellent commercial product - a simple, low power RDP client. That is what I will use my second one for...

The HP solution costs anything up to 10x the price of a RaspPi, so with a little bit of glue to provide remote configuration of sessions, and a basic Windows Management console it could be a winner. And the idea of a spare thin client that you can afford to keep in the stationery cupboard is quite attractive.

How does the foundation feel about using the board in a commercial product? I guess in the long run you don\'t have much control over what happens, but what if somebody makes a winner product and wants to buy in commercial quantities?

Have you any ideas along \"if you want to use this in a commercial quantities, you can license the design\" or \"we will supply in bulk, and use the savings due to the volume orders to further the foundation\'s plans for world domination\"?

Cheers

Mike

obarthelemy
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Re: Using the board for commercial projects.

Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:47 am

The point has been raised a few times: the foundation is happy if people buy and resell Pis. They\'re not selling at a loss, so they don\'t mind extra business, and don\'t mind commercial, for profit companies piggy backing on their efforts.
Donations are always nice ^^ I don\'t think they\'ll do bulk prices though, they don\'t have much margin to start with.

jamesh
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
Raspberry Pi Engineer & Forum Moderator
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Re: Using the board for commercial projects.

Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:22 am

No bulk prices. But you will save on postage if you buy lots!
Principal Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi (Trading) Ltd.
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Warringer
Posts: 56
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Re: Using the board for commercial projects.

Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:58 pm

That reminds me... What License is the Pi going to use anyway?

xernobyl
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:03 pm

Re: Using the board for commercial projects.

Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:23 pm

Does hardware need licenses? It\'s a thing. You buy a thing you use a thing. A thing. No?

jacklang
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:59 am

Re: Using the board for commercial projects.

Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:47 pm

Use of our trademark will require a licence

davidgoodenough
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:55 am

Re: Using the board for commercial projects.

Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:10 pm

It might be worth publishing some words that can be used without a licence, or do you want uses of the Pi to be anonymous. Something like \"Powered by Raspberry Pi\" which obviously has to mean that there is one inside the box.

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abishur
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Location: USA
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Re: Using the board for commercial projects.

Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:08 pm

[quote]Quote from davidgoodenough on November 2, 2011, 15:10
Something like \"Powered by Raspberry Pi\" which obviously has to mean that there is one inside the box.[/quote]

I was thinking of the same thing. Like a little sticker to place somewhere on a project you might be doing or commercially reselling as a tip of the hat to who made it possible.
Dear forum: Play nice ;-)

kattle87
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Using the board for commercial projects.

Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:41 pm

I guess you don\'t need the permissions of the trademark holder to say \"there\'s a raspberry PI in this box\"...
If I\'m wrong, well... It\'s probably the trademark laws that are even more flawed of what I was expecting.

Bacan
Posts: 347
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Re: Using the board for commercial projects.

Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:18 pm

[quote]Quote from kattle87 on November 2, 2011, 20:41
I guess you don\'t need the permissions of the trademark holder to say \"there\'s a raspberry PI in this box\"...
If I\'m wrong, well... It\'s probably the trademark laws that are even more flawed of what I was expecting.[/quote]

It is a matter of your using someone else\'s Good Will and Brand with out an agreement, esp. when it is promoting Your product. Your product damages or does harm, yet R-Pi image is also harmed and my be held party to a legal action by that 3rd party buyer of your product.

hamster
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:20 pm

Re: Using the board for commercial projects.

Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:10 am

[quote]Quote from Bacan on November 2, 2011, 23:18

It is a matter of your using someone else\'s Good Will and Brand with out an agreement, esp. when it is promoting Your product. Your product damages or does harm, yet R-Pi image is also harmed and my be held party to a legal action by that 3rd party buyer of your product.[/quote]

I guess that is why all the crackers strip their PCs of \"Intel Inside\" logos... :-)

If this will be the case, maybe there is a case for quick howto on how to strip out and branding from any \"standard\" build to make them clean - eg. Removal of any branded wallpaper, or any firmware splash screen....

kattle87
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Using the board for commercial projects.

Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:39 am

But what if I am just describing what I\'m selling???
I mean, it\'s like I made a video on youtube describing my product (I don\'t know, something to be put in a car) and I said \"well, I took a philips monitor, a raspberry PI and a thrust USB hub\".
Especially when selling as DYI kits :D I hope there\'s NO need for any agreement if I\'m selling a DYI kit with a raspi in it...

maxruben
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:00 am

Re: Using the board for commercial projects.

Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:37 pm

I was also thinking about the possibility for doing something comercial. I would like to use the R-Pi as a HMI/front end for a product displaying and storing data sampled from sensors that we build. We are currenty using PCs as our front end.

How about EMC. Has the R-Pi been tested for compliance aginst the EMC requirements (and all other applicable directives/requirements for that matter) that are needed for placing a product on the European market. Does it have a CE-mark and a signed declaration of conformity?

Or will I have to do the compliance testing myself?

/Ruben

jacklang
Posts: 166
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Re: Using the board for commercial projects.

Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:41 pm

These are development boards. They have not yet been tested for CE, EMC etc but we hope to do so soon. they are, however lead free, and we subscribe to the electronic waste directive scheme (weee).

oldhand
Posts: 7
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Re: Using the board for commercial projects.

Mon Dec 26, 2011 1:29 pm

it seems to me that people buying in commercial quantities and intending to make a profit from their use of rpi should pay a premium, not get a discount. i.e. they should make a required contribution, say 10 to 15% ?

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cnxsoft
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Re: Using the board for commercial projects.

Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:05 pm

jacklang said:


These are development boards. They have not yet been tested for CE, EMC etc but we hope to do so soon. they are, however lead free, and we subscribe to the electronic waste directive scheme (weee).


I thought you didn't intend to pass FCC/CE compliance, because those are just development boards. But based on your comment, I suppose the first 10,000 boards will not be certified, but the next batch may be, is that right?

pauldow
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Re: Using the board for commercial projects.

Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:05 pm

I'm hoping to also use the R Pi in a commercial project.

Once things got going, I was planning on getting extras and starting a local (could be youth, or anyone) computer group to work with them.

Working within the the local school system would require dealing with too much bureaucracy. They wouldn't want anyone involved teaching anything that isn't licensed and approved by some faceless education empire, even if this would happen after school hours.

Benedict White
Posts: 224
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Re: Using the board for commercial projects.

Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:06 pm

oldhand said:


it seems to me that people buying in commercial quantities and intending to make a profit from their use of rpi should pay a premium, not get a discount. i.e. they should make a required contribution, say 10 to 15% ?


I could not agree less.

It seems to me that if someone buys 100 to make something commercial and others do the same then what they deliver to the Raspberry Pi foundation is extra economies of scale that they would not otherwise get allowing the foundation to do more.

What I would like to see is a completely handheld device though, with Ethernet that a child could use as a game boy type device that they could write stuff on as well as share and play what others in their class have. Ports to connect to HDMI, USB GPIO etc would be fantastic as well.

arm2
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:46 pm

Re: Using the board for commercial projects.

Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:34 am

Benedict White said:


oldhand said:


it seems to me that people buying in commercial quantities and intending to make a profit from their use of rpi should pay a premium, not get a discount. i.e. they should make a required contribution, say 10 to 15% ?


I could not agree less.

It seems to me that if someone buys 100 to make something commercial and others do the same then what they deliver to the Raspberry Pi foundation is extra economies of scale that they would not otherwise get allowing the foundation to do more.

What I would like to see is a completely handheld device though, with Ethernet that a child could use as a game boy type device that they could write stuff on as well as share and play what others in their class have. Ports to connect to HDMI, USB GPIO etc would be fantastic as well.



I'm planning on various commercial products based around the RPi but don't expect a discount. The cost of the RPi being so low allready any discount would not be that significant after the 'value is added'

oldhand
Posts: 7
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Re: Using the board for commercial projects.

Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:24 pm


Benedict White said: It seems to me that if someone buys 100 to make something commercial and others do the same then what they deliver to the Raspberry Pi foundation is extra economies of scale that they would not otherwise get allowing the foundation to do more.


Ordering 100 at a time will do nothing for economy of scale. Since the foundation is costing RPi based on batches of 10K, even an order for 10K would not reduce the cost. Give the care the foundation seem to have take to optomise the cost/volume ratio, it would probably need to go to 100K or more per batch to reduct the cost significantly.

oldhand
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Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 1:20 pm

Re: Using the board for commercial projects.

Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:27 pm

arm2 said:

I'm planning on various commercial products based around the RPi but don't expect a discount. The cost of the RPi being so low allready any discount would not be that significant after the 'value is added'
Exactly. And I'm suggesting that a small amount of that 'added value' should go back to the foundation.

Benedict White
Posts: 224
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:24 am

Re: Using the board for commercial projects.

Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:55 pm

oldhand said:



Benedict White said: It seems to me that if someone buys 100 to make something commercial and others do the same then what they deliver to the Raspberry Pi foundation is extra economies of scale that they would not otherwise get allowing the foundation to do more.


Ordering 100 at a time will do nothing for economy of scale. Since the foundation is costing RPi based on batches of 10K, even an order for 10K would not reduce the cost. Give the care the foundation seem to have take to optomise the cost/volume ratio, it would probably need to go to 100K or more per batch to reduct the cost significantly.


True, but 100 orders of 100 are a batch of 10,000. Add that to an existing order of 10,000 and that means an order of 20,000 which may reduce the cost a bit. Also the handling will be less.

PeteM
Posts: 1
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Re: Using the board for commercial projects.

Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:00 pm

I think the issue of copyright (use of terms, logos, etc) and what you are going to allow 3rd parties to do needs to be fully and comprehensively defined.

I've read else where on here (http://www.raspberrypi.org/for.....go-license) that it's ok to use the logo on unofficial products but this seems to contradict this thread that states "Use of our trademark will require a licence".

Perhaps the statement could answer the following questions....

1) Are logos allowed to be used on 3rd party accesories (cases, chargers, USB hubs etc).

2) Whats the policy regarding RaspberryPi in domian names?

3) If there are restrictions then what are the criteria for gaining a 'license' to use the logo and trademarks?

Whilst the Apple guidelines are probably stricter than you would want the attached might give you some ideas....

http://www.apple.com/legal/tra.....rties.html

Pete

gimp
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Re: Using the board for commercial projects.

Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:05 pm

Benedict White said:


oldhand said:



Benedict White said: It seems to me that if someone buys 100 to make something commercial and others do the same then what they deliver to the Raspberry Pi foundation is extra economies of scale that they would not otherwise get allowing the foundation to do more.


Ordering 100 at a time will do nothing for economy of scale. Since the foundation is costing RPi based on batches of 10K, even an order for 10K would not reduce the cost. Give the care the foundation seem to have take to optomise the cost/volume ratio, it would probably need to go to 100K or more per batch to reduct the cost significantly.


True, but 100 orders of 100 are a batch of 10,000. Add that to an existing order of 10,000 and that means an order of 20,000 which may reduce the cost a bit. Also the handling will be less.


Agreed. It's not that one order of 100 would make a lot of difference, it's that multiple entities committing to large repeat orders could allow for larger batches to be manufactured, which tends to reduce cost across the board. Therefore it would, in my opinion, be silly to require large orders to pay *more*.

jacklang
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:59 am

Re: Using the board for commercial projects.

Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:06 pm

We are still talking  to the lawyers but my rough draft is

"You may use Raspberry Pi trademarks and logo
provided:

a. The Raspberry Pi word mark is not part of the product
name, company name or website URL.

b. The Raspberry Pi word mark is used in a referential
phrase such as “runs on,” “for use with,” “for,” or “compatible with.”

c. The Raspberry Pi word mark appears less prominent than
your product name.

d. The product is in fact compatible with, or otherwise
works with, the referenced Raspberry Pi product.

e. The reference to Raspberry Pi does not create a sense
of endorsement, sponsorship, or false association with Raspberry Pi or
Raspberry Pi products or services.

f. The use does not show Raspberry Pi or its products in
a false or derogatory light.

g. If the logo is used on a website it links to http://raspberrypi.org

h. You use the acknowledgement "Raspberry Pi is a
trademark of the Raspberry Pi Foundation"

i. You may not manufacture, sell or give-away merchandise
items, such as T-shirts and mugs, bearing Raspberry Pi trademark, including
symbols, logos, or icons, except pursuant to an express written trademark
license from Raspberry Pi."

Any comments?

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