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Lob0426
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Re: Doomed to use Powered Hubs

Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:56 am

With the changes that have been made to the production RasPi it appears we will be doomed to use a powered USB hub.

If all you need is a keyboard, mouse and ethernet then the Model B, in this new power design will be fine. The model A will need a hub if you want a mouse and keyboard unless you use a combo set such as a wireless combo Keyboard and Mouse should be well within the power profile.

If you want to have a Keyboard, Mouse, Ethernet and any other device then you will have to have a powered hub. It does not appear that the new power profile will be able to supply anywere near the amperage that would run, say a USB HDD. A web cam will probably work at 100ma but if it has pan and tilt it looks likely a no go.

Looking at it this way makes me wonder why they would not just go to an A model with 256MB and no B model. The extra memory would be the most likely reason, but it would cost a whole lot less for a B model with a single USB port and no LAN9512 onboard. After all you will have to use a powered USB hub, anyway you cut it, if you want any real thirsty devices. Run it on a 7 port USB powered hub and add the Ethernet, Keyboard, Mouse and a USB HDD, Web cam etc.. to the RasPi. So a B model would cost like $5 or so more than a A model in this configuration. The PCB size would be able to be reduced even further reducing the overall cost again. Then you would also need less component inventory, again reducing your overall cost.

In the end what compromises are cost efficient, and which are not?
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abishur
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Re: Doomed to use Powered Hubs

Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:24 am

Well considering that the purpose of the model A is just to get Kids interested in programing again a lot can be accomplished with a keyboard by itself, or at worst a keyboard with a usb port (shot even my monitors come with USB ports now days ;) ) As for the Model B don\'t you think you\'re going a little over the top here? :P

As I keep saying there are 5 pis I\'d like to get over time

1) Media Center for TV (uses 1 ethernet port 1 USB for combo wireless keyboard with built in trackball)
2) Web server (uses 1 ethernet port, nothing else)
3) NAS (1 ethernet port, and 1 usb for external drive, I can power it off AC adapter or if I really wanted to use an external USB wall wart which is a lot cheaper than a whole hub just for 1 device)
4) Experimentation device (sudo desktop replacement, uses 1 ethernet port and two usb ports for keyboard/mouse)
5) Portable e-reader or possibly mobile computer (e-reader would use model A with one usb port used for wi-fi

Let\'s go ahead and throw in a number 6 web filter (uses 1 ethernet port and 1 usb for additional ethernet)

And let\'s also do a 7th for older console emulators (sega/NES/SNES/etc) this is the one device I\'d want a powered USB hub for and that\'s just so I can have four players ;)

Now I say all this because there\'s a lot of doom and gloom going on about the lack of USB ports and while I want to emphasize that I fully agree there are some applications where more ports would be nice, if we stepped back and thought about it, most of the application we\'ve been talking about using them for just don\'t need the extra port. Yes, some do, but should we universally increase the cost of the board so that 1 out of X numbered board can have that one extra port they need?

I also confess that I wish the USB ports were capable of providing a full 500 mA of power if the wall wart could supply it. I think that would solve a lot of issues, but even then, the main issue most of us will face is powering those travel drives (I haven\'t seen in 3.5 inch drive enclosures that could powered off USB) and a better solution than a powered USB hub would just take the extra USB plug and snap it into a USB wall charger. With phones using those now days, many of have extra ones lying around that could provide enough power and they\'re cheaper than a while USB hub if you have to buy it out right.
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Re: Doomed to use Powered Hubs

Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:06 am

[quote]Quote from abishur on October 31, 2011, 04:24
Well considering that the purpose of the model A is just to get Kids interested in programing again a lot can be accomplished with a keyboard by itself, or at worst a keyboard with a usb port (shot even my monitors come with USB ports now days ;) ) As for the Model B don\'t you think you\'re going a little over the top here? :P [/quote]Well I think the focus of the Raspberry Foundation is a bit unfocused. If the point is to get kids to program you really have to make something that is contemporary. They are not easy to fool. If presented with a computer with only a keyboard and no mouse they\'ll think it\'s crap (rightfully). But if we take abishur\'s attitude that the monitor obviously has a build-in USB hub then it will also be HDMI compliant and we might as well just drop the composite video and analog sound output to simplify board layout. Which I frankly think is a good idea. R-PI should be as advanced by today standard as BBC was in 1982.

And no kid will accept a so called computer without internet access. Just get it. This is 2011. No LAN, no computer - even a telephone manage this.

Then some may have some romantic dreams about Africa or Latin America, but the fact is if they have a reasonably stable power supply they also have mobile phones and internet. Again this is 2011.

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Re: Doomed to use Powered Hubs

Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:10 am

The 3.5\" size drive enclosures all use external power. So no real problem there. Some of the 2.5\" drive enclosures power from the USB port, but they need the full 500ma at least at spinup. A \"Y\" cable makes the spinup faster due to there now being a whole 5 watts to carry out the spinup rather than 2.5 watts. .5 watts is not going to cut it at all for a USB HDD. So therefore you are doomed to a powered hub, in this case. That .5 watts will not even spinup a 1.8\" drive. Not really trying to go doom and gloom on this but there is a point where a compromise may go too far. The jump from to two full powered USB ports to two partially powered ports did increase overall end costs to some users. The A model will probably see less of an impact in this than the B models will. One fully powered port at this point would have been a better tradeoff than two partially powered ports. One partially powered port may have the same overall effect in the long run. Time will tell, it always does. Maybe in the future, a model C will return to the original power design.

As to going over the top? No, the reality is it would have been better to go to a single port model with 256MB and totally rely upon a powered hub to carry the load if there is any intent to use higher wattage peripherals in a RasPi based system. This would have also gave better flexibility with an unpowered hub. The reduction in size of the PCB (no LAN9512) alone may have made it worth it to the hobbyist.

This is the devils advocate speaking here. The RasPi is still an amazing device, at least price wise. And I plan on working around these obstacles.
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Re: Doomed to use Powered Hubs

Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:18 am

@kme - actually the monitors in questions were just plain jane VGAs bottom line from dell, but my point here is that it\'s easy enough to get either a keyboard or monitor or other peripheral that already has usb for dirt cheap and kill two birds with one such that even the single port on the model A will be sufficient to provide keyboard and mouse access. And I think you underestimate kids. People who want to be mere users can\'t accept a computer without internet. People who actually want to know what it is they\'re using will love any device that gets them there.

@lobo - even with a 2.5 disk a powered hub isn\'t necessary, use the other part of the y cable and hook it up to a USB wall wart charger with the needed mA. Not only would this be a space saver, it\'s cheaper and, imho, looks nicer than a full on hub just to power a device.
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Re: Doomed to use Powered Hubs

Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:35 am

[quote]And I think you underestimate kids. People who want to be mere users can\'t accept a computer without internet. People who actually want to know what it is they\'re using will love any device that gets them there.[/quote]Maybe, but you just cut the audience by 99%. I thought the point about R-PI was to catch a LOT of kids. You don\'t catch kids without internet and something remotely fancy. How do you expect kids to learn programming if they can\'t google programming examples or guides or error messages or bitch about their stupid teacher on facebook? Read books? Forget it.

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Re: Doomed to use Powered Hubs

Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:59 am

[quote]Quote from kme on October 31, 2011, 05:06
Then some may have some romantic dreams about Africa or Latin America, but the fact is if they have a reasonably stable power supply they also have mobile phones and internet. Again this is 2011.[/quote]

Whoa hold your horses. I can tell you for a fact that over 95% of Brazilians have TV sets, but only 6% have data-capable mobile devices and about 27% have any sort of internet access at home (I should know, I did my thesis on mobile broadband in Brazil). So there\'s circa 40 million Brazilian homes (130 million people) with a working TV set but no internet access whatsoever that could benefit from a network-less RasPi. And that\'s in Brazil alone.

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Re: Doomed to use Powered Hubs

Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:17 am

@emercer

I think this is a very fair point and cabled networks take forever to role out especially in locations such as Brazil, however, I would also point out how rapidly mobile and general wireless networks for delivery of broadband are developing all around the world. I even recently did a report on a portable 4G unit that you can just attach to an antenna for battlefield scenarios, it\'s actually cheaper to buy/setup and they\'re already being deployed in Afghanistan (which already has a flourishing 3.5g network). Add to this better wifi technologies such s WiMax and femtocell concepts and it\'s not unreasonable to expect this situation may change rapidly over the next few years, as long as an area has the basic requirement of electricity.

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Re: Doomed to use Powered Hubs

Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:02 am

[quote]Quote from kme on October 31, 2011, 05:35
[quote]And I think you underestimate kids. People who want to be mere users can\'t accept a computer without internet. People who actually want to know what it is they\'re using will love any device that gets them there.[/quote]Maybe, but you just cut the audience by 99%. I thought the point about R-PI was to catch a LOT of kids. You don\'t catch kids without internet and something remotely fancy. How do you expect kids to learn programming if they can\'t google programming examples or guides or error messages or bitch about their stupid teacher on facebook? Read books? Forget it.[/quote]

7 billion people on the planet as of today. Approx 18% are children under 15. Get rid of your 99% and that is still 12.6million children. I believe that still counts as \'a lot\'.

Also, I think your 99% is a massive overestimation.

I learn on a BBC micro in the early 80. I didn\'t have decent internet access until the early 2000\'s. It\'s great if you have it, but it\'s not necessary to learn how to program. I hope Raspi and others will be able to provide offline teaching materials, which should negate the need for permanent access (which is expensive anyway).
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Re: Doomed to use Powered Hubs

Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:03 am

For me, a lot hangs on finding a nice combined keyboard/mouse, thus saving a USB port. I dislike Bluetooth because I always run out of batteries at the worst possible time, and I kinda need AZERTY because all my other keyboards are AZERTY. Constantly switching keyboard layouts messes up my brain. I\'m having a hard time finding a nice, affordable USB AZERTY keyboard with integrated mouse. I\'m even willing to compromise on AZERTY at this stage.

I\'ve tried to find an Ethernet to Wifi dongle, came up with that:
http://www.buy.com/pr/product.aspx?sku= ... d=18700237...
as expensive as a full Pi, driver status unknown, and Yet Another Power brick.

Couldn\'t even find a Wifi+Bluetooth combo USB dongle, there was one advertised that turned out to be vaporware.

And finally, Toshiba never answered my mail about their combination SD/wifi a while back.

Soooo yep, I\'m feeling the USB pinch too. I\'d really like to avoid USB Hubs, so Wifi is out for me, and ssh is in, but I\'ve got a main PC to rule over the Pis.

As a standalone piece for its intended purpose, I do think a hub will be unavoidable, which is sad because it makes the $25/$35 price look like marketing spin.

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Re: Doomed to use Powered Hubs

Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:34 am

\"And finally, Toshiba never answered my mail about their combination SD/wifi a while back.\"
Is www.eye.fi any use?.

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Re: Doomed to use Powered Hubs

Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:36 am

A keyboard with a built in hub (like the Dell one I am typing this on) seems to be the way to go. Plug the Wifi dongle and mouse in to the keyboard. Job done.
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Re: Doomed to use Powered Hubs

Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:04 am

@jamesh: will the Pi be able to power a keyboard, and a mouse, and a wifi dongle ? I have no clue how much those draw.

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Re: Doomed to use Powered Hubs

Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:18 pm

Jamesh - Surely you\'re still gonna need a powered hub - wireless dongles generally pull ~250-500mA (I\'ve just checked a couple here, one wanted 300mA, the other 400mA), and that\'s significantly more than the 100mA you\'re gonna have to play with off a USB port on a RasPi, unless I\'m very much mistaken.

Indeed, even keyboard + builtin hub + mouse may well blow the power budget of a single port, especially if it\'s a \"laser\" mouse.

Simon

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Re: Doomed to use Powered Hubs

Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:36 pm

The 100ma per port does not leave a whole lot of headroom for devices, but a USB keyboard uses about 25 to 50ma. Mice use a little more at around 50ma. If you use a WiFi dongle they may use all of the 100ma from one port. The wireless keyboard/mouse combo usually are proprietary Bluetooth and use in the area of 50ma. Where the problem lies is with devices like GPS, HDD some of the web cams and so on. Here in the developed countries you can find the wall-warts pretty easy, the issue is additional cost. I have these lying around all over the place but if you are in a place where your only high tech device is a RasPi, this could very well be a problem. If you are trying to use a PS2 keyboard and a USB adapter you are flat out of luck as they use around 250ma for the keyboard alone. This actually may have killed off my bid to put a RasPi into a keyboard!

If you are in Africa trying to cobble together older components to get a RasPi working I doubt you are going to find a powered hub at the street market. I can\'t find one at my local wal-mart. The original power scheme had enough power to do all of this through unpowered hubs.

Remember the number of people that felt the Raspberry Pi foundation misrepresented the device because it was not going to be \"USB stick\" sized? Now add to that \"under one watt\", gone probably. Now add to that \"6v to 20v\" gone. Add to that \"efficiency\", not really gone unless you argue the change of components, but still not as good as was previously stated. USB standard ports, gone. The \"Robust\" gone, maybe, we will have to see how the world treats them. Probably not as robust as they were.

Can this all be chalked up to the RasPi dream meets reality?
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Re: Doomed to use Powered Hubs

Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:43 pm

I\'m fairly sure (unless you can point me to something stating otherwise) that the \"original\" power scheme was always 100mA/port and nothing more (i.e. you need a powered hub). I certainly don\'t recall anyone ever stating that you\'d be able to plug in stuff like a usb-powered drive and expect it to work.

The loss of 6-20V supply is a bit of a pain for me, at least, but it\'s hardly a dealbreaker.

Simon

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Re: Doomed to use Powered Hubs

Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:11 pm

[quote]Quote from Lob0426 on October 31, 2011, 12:36
Can this all be chalked up to the RasPi dream meets reality?
[/quote]

Meets the reality of designed to cost seems reasonable to say.

The important question is whether the changes make it unsuitable for its primary purpose and I would say not, even though the changes may be less than desirable for those looking to use an R-Pi for some other purpose.

Even with the changes, potential inconvenience, complications and increasing costs of add-ons to use the R-Pi as one may want to I still don\'t see anything at all comparable with it at the same price. If it had been announced as a general purpose platform, to be all things to all men, then I might feel I had more grounds to complain. At best I can only manage, \"it would have been nice if...\", and I\'m sure the R-Pi team might even agree.

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Re: Doomed to use Powered Hubs

Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:49 pm

[quote]Quote from Scribe on October 31, 2011, 08:17
@emercer

I think this is a very fair point and cabled networks take forever to role out especially in locations such as Brazil, however, I would also point out how rapidly mobile and general wireless networks for delivery of broadband are developing all around the world[/quote]

Certainly, but then all you need is a USB port for your wireless modem, not ethernet. Ergo, the Model A retains its utility.

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Re: Doomed to use Powered Hubs

Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:17 pm

[quote]Quote from tufty on October 31, 2011, 12:18
Jamesh - Surely you\'re still gonna need a powered hub - wireless dongles generally pull ~250-500mA (I\'ve just checked a couple here, one wanted 300mA, the other 400mA), and that\'s significantly more than the 100mA you\'re gonna have to play with off a USB port on a RasPi, unless I\'m very much mistaken.

Indeed, even keyboard + builtin hub + mouse may well blow the power budget of a single port, especially if it\'s a \"laser\" mouse.

Simon[/quote]

I may be missing something but where does your 100mA per port figure come from? If using a 500mA power source (and many mobile phone USB adapters are more than that - I\'ve seen 1000mA), the Raspi using say 200 of that leaving 300-800 for attached devices.
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Re: Doomed to use Powered Hubs

Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:26 pm

USB 2.0 can supply up to 500mA of current per port.
A 4 port powered hub, for instance, comes with a 2A PSU.
I think it\'s the USB chip that distributes the power for each port.
This is to say that no matter what PSU you use with the Pi, you will have up to 500mA per USB port.
I don\'t know where that 100mA figure comes from.

BTW:
http://techlogg.com/2010/06/usb3-0-addr ... -power/595

I would use at least a 5V, 1.5A PSU with the Pi, because up to 1A can be used by the two USB ports.
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Re: Doomed to use Powered Hubs

Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:36 pm

[quote]I don\'t know where that 100mA figure comes from.[/quote]From the USB-2 specification:
[quote]A unit load is defined as 100 mA in USB 2.0, and 150 mA in USB 3.0. A device may draw a maximum of 5 unit loads (500 mA) from a port in USB 2.0[/quote]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#Power

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Re: Doomed to use Powered Hubs

Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:23 pm

[quote]Quote from carlosfm on October 31, 2011, 16:26
I would use at least a 5V, 1.5A PSU with the Pi, because up to 1A can be used by the two USB ports.[/quote]

There seems some confusion between what USB allows and what the R-Pi will cater for.

USB 2.0 sockets will normally provide 100 mA and up to 500 mA once the connected device asks for that. Some USB sockets have no limitation upon them though this is not USB specification compliant.

The R-Pi appears to have a fuse fitted which will cut-out if too much current is drawn. It is not clear ( to me ) what the exact value of this fuse is or what current the R-Pi circuit uses but if the fuse is rated, say, 1000 mA (1A) and if the R-Pi draws 700 mA, then trying to draw more than 300 mA out of the USB sockets will cause that fuse to blow and the R-Pi will shut down.

So, even if the power supply could deliver 100 Amps the R-Pi will only allow 1 Amp to pass through it. The current available for USB devices will be whatever the fuse is rated at, less the current the R-Pi circuit itself draws.

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Re: Doomed to use Powered Hubs

Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:12 pm

[quote]Quote from jamesh on October 31, 2011, 16:17
I may be missing something but where does your 100mA per port figure come from? If using a 500mA power source (and many mobile phone USB adapters are more than that - I\'ve seen 1000mA), the Raspi using say 200 of that leaving 300-800 for attached devices.[/quote]

Oh really? :D There was some implication over in the power supply thread that the max current for the r-pi USB ports was capped at 100 mA.
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Re: Doomed to use Powered Hubs

Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:15 pm

There seems to be some uncertainty about what the Pi can / will supply through its USB ports. Part of that is that we don\'t yet know the precise circuitry of the Pi itself. I did ask about a week ago about this (http://www.raspberrypi.org/?page_id=43& ... c&t=809.10) having concocted my own diagram, hoping someone like Gert would tell me if it was anything like reality. Given that noone replied, I assume it\'s not yet been officially sorted.
Still, If we take the rumours as gospel, that apart from the fuse it\'s straight copper from power-in to USB-power-out, then the value of that fuse gives us an upper limit on the power we can draw from it. The same thing can be said of the over-voltage protection thingy (OVPT): if that is set at 5.25v then feeding the Pi from a 6v battery will (temporarily) kill it, but if it\'s set at >6v then it won\'t. If what we are feeding is happy with what the OVPT will allow then we\'re ok, otherwise we\'re not. It all depends on the precise details of the circuit, which we\'re not yet privy to. (hint: can we have that answer please? Pretty please? Gert? Please?)
Just for my pleasure here\'s that diagram again:[img]https://8808927556806989437-a-180274477 ... edirects=0[/img]
*EDIT the OVPT is drawn as a thyristor, and won\'t work the way it\'s drawn. It needs to be turned the other way up, anode to + cathode to -, and the gate needs to be connected via a 4v7 or similar zener to + with a ~100k resistor to deck. But the idea\'s almost there.

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Re: Doomed to use Powered Hubs

Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:06 pm

A bit off topic but on the subject of power, would any of these work for me if I want to
a) Power a 2.5 HDD via a USB Y Cable
b) Power a R-Pi Model B with a keyboard, mouse and ethernet connected

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HQ-UK-Mains-P ... 1498wt_910

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Adapter-Charger ... 558&sr=8-1

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