pUnK
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Running x86 apps on ARM

Fri May 29, 2015 5:11 pm

Eltechs today launched new version of ExaGear Desktop - software that allow to run x86 apps on ARM.

They claim support of Raspberry Pi (all models), add support of guest Ubuntu 14.04, Debian and Raspbian. Also improved performance and sound support.

Would you like to run skype on your Raspberry? ;)
ExaGear Desktop - run x86 apps on Raspberry Pi
pUnK from Eltechs

Heater
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Re: Running x86 apps on ARM

Fri May 29, 2015 5:14 pm

No, it will be slow as hell. Worse than normal.

Besides, it's just a horrible idea.

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fruitoftheloom
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Re: Running x86 apps on ARM

Fri May 29, 2015 5:29 pm

$9.95 & $ 14.95

http://eltechs.com/product/exagear-desk ... and-prices

Running Intel x86 applications on ARM-based Mini PCs
With Eltechs ExaGear Desktop you can run Intel x86 application on your ARM-based Mini PC simultaneously with common native applications. ExaGear is a virtual machine that implements virtual x86 Linux container on ARM and allows you to run Intel x86 applications directly on ARM. It is like QEMU but 4.5 times faster! You can even run Windows applications on your ARM Mini PC if you install Wine.

http://eltechs.com/product/exagear-desktop

Also you can run 32-bit Windows applications if you install x86 Wine.
My only "PC" is an Asus ChromeBit running ChromeOS, cloudcentric at its best !
Rockchip Quad-Core RK3288C SoC as used in ASUS Chromebook C201 & Chromebook Flip C100PA as well as the Tinker SBC

pUnK
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Re: Running x86 apps on ARM

Fri May 29, 2015 6:32 pm

Heater wrote:No, it will be slow as hell. Worse than normal.

Besides, it's just a horrible idea.

Not so slow as you might think. Look on the performance bench on website.
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Re: Running x86 apps on ARM

Fri May 29, 2015 6:39 pm

Yeah, right.

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kusti8
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Re: Running x86 apps on ARM

Fri May 29, 2015 7:30 pm

pUnK wrote:
Heater wrote:No, it will be slow as hell. Worse than normal.

Besides, it's just a horrible idea.

Not so slow as you might think. Look on the performance bench on website.
All performance benches on the company's websites are under ideal conditions, can be faked easily and are almost never true. If you really want to prove us wrong, try it. Still, any x86 to ARM emulation is going to be really slow.
There are 10 types of people: those who understand binary and those who don't.

pUnK
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Re: Running x86 apps on ARM

Fri May 29, 2015 7:38 pm

kusti8 wrote: All performance benches on the company's websites are under ideal conditions, can be faked easily and are almost never true. If you really want to prove us wrong, try it. Still, any x86 to ARM emulation is going to be really slow.
Sure, it is better to believe anonymous kusti8 who claims that it is slow and never tried it :lol:
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Re: Running x86 apps on ARM

Fri May 29, 2015 7:45 pm

pUnK wrote:
kusti8 wrote: All performance benches on the company's websites are under ideal conditions, can be faked easily and are almost never true. If you really want to prove us wrong, try it. Still, any x86 to ARM emulation is going to be really slow.
Sure, it is better to believe anonymous kusti8 who claims that it is slow and never tried it :lol:
Yeah, I've never tried it. Go ahead and try it. You haven't tried it either, simply believing whatever the company website says.

It's a fact that emulation is slow. You can't get around in and it's especially slow going cross architecture. It's still going to be slow. They say that it's 4.5 times faster than QEMU. That doesn't mean much considering how slow QEMU is.
There are 10 types of people: those who understand binary and those who don't.

pUnK
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Re: Running x86 apps on ARM

Fri May 29, 2015 7:58 pm

kusti8 wrote: It's a fact that emulation is slow. You can't get around in and it's especially slow going cross architecture. It's still going to be slow. They say that it's 4.5 times faster than QEMU. That doesn't mean much considering how slow QEMU is.
Please read carefully. There are comparisons with native mode too.
Overhead is around 0%-50% comparing to native.
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Re: Running x86 apps on ARM

Fri May 29, 2015 8:00 pm

Don't be silly. Why should kusti8 or anyone pay money to do an experiment that everyone all ready knows the result of?

Of course we may still be wrong, so please, put down your money do the test and report back your findings.

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fruitoftheloom
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Re: Running x86 apps on ARM

Fri May 29, 2015 8:06 pm

pUnK wrote:
kusti8 wrote: It's a fact that emulation is slow. You can't get around in and it's especially slow going cross architecture. It's still going to be slow. They say that it's 4.5 times faster than QEMU. That doesn't mean much considering how slow QEMU is.
Please read carefully. There are comparisons with native mode too.
Overhead is around 0%-50% comparing to native.
If it was ""FREE"" then it would be better, jeez. $14.95 (was $24.95) !

I bought a PC Tower with Vista Legal for £25.00 (around $35.00) which is faster than a RPi2 B,
so splashing out money to have an inferior experience, ? thanks but no thanks....
My only "PC" is an Asus ChromeBit running ChromeOS, cloudcentric at its best !
Rockchip Quad-Core RK3288C SoC as used in ASUS Chromebook C201 & Chromebook Flip C100PA as well as the Tinker SBC

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Re: Running x86 apps on ARM

Sat May 30, 2015 10:29 am

kusti8 wrote:
pUnK wrote:
kusti8 wrote: All performance benches on the company's websites are under ideal conditions, can be faked easily and are almost never true. If you really want to prove us wrong, try it. Still, any x86 to ARM emulation is going to be really slow.
Sure, it is better to believe anonymous kusti8 who claims that it is slow and never tried it :lol:
Yeah, I've never tried it. Go ahead and try it. You haven't tried it either, simply believing whatever the company website says.

It's a fact that emulation is slow. You can't get around in and it's especially slow going cross architecture. It's still going to be slow. They say that it's 4.5 times faster than QEMU. That doesn't mean much considering how slow QEMU is.
Judging by pUnK posts he has tried it because he works for the company that is selling it.
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Re: Running x86 apps on ARM

Sat May 30, 2015 11:06 am

Guys, you can blame me all the deadly sins for sure.

I just shared the news that might be interested for somebody.

For example Odroid community was very interested in initial release and even published review in their monthly Odroid Magazine. I guess the same might be here.
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Re: Running x86 apps on ARM

Sat May 30, 2015 1:37 pm

pUnK wrote:Guys, you can blame me all the deadly sins for sure.

I just shared the news that might be interested for somebody.

For example Odroid community was very interested in initial release and even published review in their monthly Odroid Magazine. I guess the same might be here.
Might be worth you getting in touch with the MagPI, and see if they want to do a review.
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Joe Schmoe
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Re: Running x86 apps on ARM

Sat May 30, 2015 2:05 pm

I think you have to understand that people are skeptical.

It'd be like if you suddenly announced Flash to the Pi.

We've all been led down this road too many times, and it has always led to disappointment. All of these negative/sarcastic replies are just people's way of trying to avoid being disappointed again.

For the record, the two big Holy Grails of the Pi are:
  1. Flash
  2. Being able to run Windows (x86) apps.
Neither seems possible, and nobody really wants to spend $15 to be disappointed yet again.
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.

(One of the best lines I've seen on this board lately)

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Re: Running x86 apps on ARM

Sat May 30, 2015 2:17 pm

Joe Schmoe wrote: For the record, the two big Holy Grails of the Pi are:
  1. Flash
  2. Being able to run Windows (x86) apps.
Really? Flash is dead. Nobody wants to run it anymore, and people only used it the past because either a) they had to, or b) it was there.

Secondly, if I wanted to run Windows applications I'd buy a copy of Windows and appropriate hardware to run it. All the applications I want for the Pi are available, since they were open source and recompiled.

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Re: Running x86 apps on ARM

Sat May 30, 2015 2:23 pm

Great, It is more constructive :)

Start from the bottom. Windows apps. We successfully run Wine on R Pi 2. We even have special guest x86 image with preinstalled Wine. Of course Wine do not support any Windows app but a lot enough.

Flash. Could you explain what you can run on x86 Linux and can not on R Pi in more details? We tried this one install_flash_player_11_linux.i386.tar.gz and it works. Is that what you asked?
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dave j
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Re: Running x86 apps on ARM

Sat May 30, 2015 2:46 pm

@pUnK

If you do work for Eltechs, and as you have only posted on this forum about their technology it's very likely you do, you ought to put something to that effect in your sig. What you're doing looks like astroturfing and people are naturally distrustful of companies who use such deceptive marketing practices.

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Re: Running x86 apps on ARM

Sat May 30, 2015 3:53 pm

Joe Schmoe,
For the record, the two big Holy Grails of the Pi are:

Flash
Being able to run Windows (x86) apps.
Whose record? There seems to be millions of happy Pi users out there with no such dreams.

Flash is long dead, even Adobe has said that. Dragging that corpse along does nobody any good long term.

Not being able to run x86 code is a good thing to my mind. It fosters the growth of open source cross-platform software which in the long run is the better way to go and it stimulates a whole slew of creativity.

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Re: Running x86 apps on ARM

Sat May 30, 2015 5:59 pm

Joe Schmoe wrote: Being able to run Windows (x86) apps.

Neither seems possible, and nobody really wants to spend $15 to be disappointed yet again.
Well... Not exactly. I've run a bunch of the earlier "Wizardry" games on a Pi, an early (256MB) Model B, at that. Granted, those games were published long enough ago that they pre-date Win95 by a good margin, but they are "x86" programs and they run fine under DOSBox.

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Re: Running x86 apps on ARM

Sat May 30, 2015 7:19 pm

Well... Not exactly..
From your description, these sound like DOS, not Windows, games.

But in any case, I don't really consider pre-Win95 to really be Windows.

Maybe I should have said "32 bit Windows (x86) apps".
(Yes, I'm aware that there were sorta, kinda, ways to run 32 bit before Win95, things like Win32s, etc, but that doesn't really count...)
And some folks need to stop being fanboys and see the forest behind the trees.

(One of the best lines I've seen on this board lately)

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fruitoftheloom
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Re: Running x86 apps on ARM

Sat May 30, 2015 7:27 pm

Joe Schmoe wrote:
Well... Not exactly..
From your description, these sound like DOS, not Windows, games.

But in any case, I don't really consider pre-Win95 to really be Windows.

Maybe I should have said "32 bit Windows (x86) apps".
(Yes, I'm aware that there were sorta, kinda, ways to run 32 bit before Win95, things like Win32s, etc, but that doesn't really count...)
Windows NT x86 may be a better choice ?
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Re: Running x86 apps on ARM

Sat May 30, 2015 7:29 pm

Joe Schmoe wrote:
Well... Not exactly..
From your description, these sound like DOS, not Windows, games.

But in any case, I don't really consider pre-Win95 to really be Windows.

Maybe I should have said "32 bit Windows (x86) apps".
(Yes, I'm aware that there were sorta, kinda, ways to run 32 bit before Win95, things like Win32s, etc, but that doesn't really count...)
Defining the exceptions away...a "No True Scotsman" argument. Yes, those programs ran on DOS, and they are definitely compiled for x86. I did; on the other hand, run several of them on a Win98 system.

I agree that what most people think of as "Windows programs"--that is, relatively modern applications, will, at best, run like absolute dogs on a Pi under emulation. But you can't flatly state that all "Windows" or all "x86" programs can't be run on a Pi, What is needed is information about exactly *what* program someone wants to run. Once that information is provided, one is likely to be able to reasonably definitively state whether or not running it on a Pi is at all reasonable. It may also be possible to to point to a functional equivalent that will run natively on a Pi. A good example of the latter would be someone who wants to run Word and can be pointed to LibreOffice.

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Re: Running x86 apps on ARM

Sun May 31, 2015 4:49 pm

@jamesh
thx for advise

@dave j
Is that better now?
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Re: Running x86 apps on ARM

Sun May 31, 2015 5:04 pm

My gut feeling about all this is:

Wow that's an amazing achievement. Well done.

Tempered with:

Well that depends on Wine, Wine only runs a limited amount of windows software. It's amazing that any of it runs at all on Linux, more amazing it can be done on ARM.

That's great for firing up old games and some legacy apps but not a way to go forward into the future.

Now, I have one favourite Windows only app that happens to run very well under Wine on an x86 PC. That is LTSpice from Analog Devices.

So, my question is, how well does that run on the Pi?

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