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ric96
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wayland/weston and maynard ???

Wed May 13, 2015 6:47 pm

any update on the wayland Maynard project, haven't heard about this in a while?
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Re: wayland/weston and maynard ???

Wed May 13, 2015 6:48 pm

Sitting on the shelf. Probably waiting for the mesa/kms stuff.

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Re: wayland/weston and maynard ???

Wed May 13, 2015 6:55 pm

Eben recently said that by focusing on Wayland/Weston before we had completed a UI overhaul and released the KMS/Mesa driver we were putting the cart before the horse. Xwindows is "good enough" with UI tweaks and our slightly bespoke framebuffer driver (using DMA for 2d blitting) that adding eye candy in the form of a Weston compositor was so-so from a user experience perspective.

Once we get a fully open-source 3D stack released that can handle regular OpenGL drawing and a modesetting driver that can handle arbitrary screen resolutions, then we can start looking at how the display manager and compositor can be integrated.
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Re: wayland/weston and maynard ???

Wed May 13, 2015 8:38 pm

I have totally failed in figuring out why we need a wayland or weston or maynard. Or even what they are supposed to be.

Despite spending an hour watching a presentation from a Wayland developer who explained very nicely about the tens of thousands of lines of code in X that we don't need any more and he had removed.

Anyway, what I'm looking for is any way to run a web browser on the Pi that can display GPU accelerated webgl.

Is that part of the picture?

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Re: wayland/weston and maynard ???

Sat Jan 02, 2016 11:13 pm

@Heater
Yes that is part of the picture and imo the most important part that Wayland will bring us. With that the Pi has a lot more to offer in terms of GUI and games programming.

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Re: wayland/weston and maynard ???

Sat Jan 02, 2016 11:58 pm

But...it's already accelerated.
You should have seen how it was in X windows. Youtube played in a tiny window at 1 frame every 20 seconds.
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Re: wayland/weston and maynard ???

Sun Jan 03, 2016 1:11 am

No it is not. How is webgl running today?

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Re: wayland/weston and maynard ???

Sun Jan 03, 2016 3:31 am

Heater wrote: Despite spending an hour watching a presentation from a Wayland developer who explained very nicely about the tens of thousands of lines of code in X that we don't need any more and he had removed.
Did anyone ask him how many lines of code it took for him to replace the functionality of what he took out of X, and where he put them?

I think Heinlein put it best..."There ain't no such thing as a free lunch."

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Re: wayland/weston and maynard ???

Sun Jan 03, 2016 5:20 pm

Heater wrote:No it is not. How is webgl running today?
I think the Anholts MESA driver accelerated WebGL pretty well, certainly from the bits I have seen. I don't think it's that far off release now.
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Re: wayland/weston and maynard ???

Sun Jan 03, 2016 5:48 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Heater wrote: Despite spending an hour watching a presentation from a Wayland developer who explained very nicely about the tens of thousands of lines of code in X that we don't need any more and he had removed.
Did anyone ask him how many lines of code it took for him to replace the functionality of what he took out of X, and where he put them?
I can't tell whether you are being facetious or not, but the short answer is: None.

(I'm no expert on this, but...) My understanding is that X has just continuously grown over the years and the way it has grown is that when new ways of doing things are discovered, code is added to implement the new ways and the code that implements the old ways is just left in there - essentially branched around (note 1). So, all the old code is still in there, but just never gets executed (note 2).

Note 1) By "branched around", I mean, metaphorically, that it is like:

goto skip;
old code
old code
old code
skip:

But only metaphorically, Nick.

Note 2) But obviously not in such a way that the C compiler would be able to optimize it out (as would be the case if it were as simple as Note 1 implies).

So, in conclusion, I believe that when they removed all that unneeded code, they replaced it with nothing.
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Re: wayland/weston and maynard ???

Sun Jan 03, 2016 9:49 pm

QuietZone wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Heater wrote: Despite spending an hour watching a presentation from a Wayland developer who explained very nicely about the tens of thousands of lines of code in X that we don't need any more and he had removed.
Did anyone ask him how many lines of code it took for him to replace the functionality of what he took out of X, and where he put them?
I can't tell whether you are being facetious or not, but the short answer is: None.

(I'm no expert on this, but...) My understanding is that X has just continuously grown over the years and the way it has grown is that when new ways of doing things are discovered, code is added to implement the new ways and the code that implements the old ways is just left in there - essentially branched around (note 1). So, all the old code is still in there, but just never gets executed (note 2).

Note 1) By "branched around", I mean, metaphorically, that it is like:

goto skip;
old code
old code
old code
skip:

But only metaphorically, Nick.

Note 2) But obviously not in such a way that the C compiler would be able to optimize it out (as would be the case if it were as simple as Note 1 implies).

So, in conclusion, I believe that when they removed all that unneeded code, they replaced it with nothing.
I draw a different conclusion, but we'll let that pass.

Note that an optimizing compiler will not generate object code for source code that cannot be executed. So while branching around code that is no longer going to be executed may leave the *source* code bloated, it doesn't produce similar bloat in the *executable* code.

So... No. I wasn't be facetious. No one would care, and a competent programmer certainly wouldn't brag, about removing source code (the only kind that comes in "lines") that can never be executed, so I take his statement as having removed *functional* code and replacing it with something else somewhere else.

It may well be that, give the way modern GPUs operate, the new code is much more compact that the original code, but the same work is be done *somewhere* by *some* code, so the code that was removed doesn't constitute a recovery of all the machine cycles it used to use.

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Re: wayland/weston and maynard ???

Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:52 pm

X11 was designed to offload the tedious job of painting pixels from the application to the display server. The display server would often be running on a separate processor, and might even be in a different room than the main computer. So the core X11 protocol has requests like XDrawArc and XFillPolygon and XDrawText. The application sends the request, and the server plots the necessary pixels asynchronously.

But modern applications do not want bitmap fonts and solid colored polygons. They want hinted and anti-aliased fonts, and smooth color gradations, and icons rendered smoothly using vectors. And RAM is more plentiful now and much faster, at least for sequential accesses. Modern toolkits render almost all their graphics locally, and then pass the array of pixels to the server as an XImage. If running on the same machine as the display, they use shared memory to avoid copying all the data through a network socket.

Wayland does away with almost all of X, because all it does is accept pre-rendered windows from clients, and tell the modern GPU where to put them on the screen. (Or pass OpenGL function calls directly to the GPU, which X11 can also do using extensions like GLX.)

So Wayland removes most of the X code, because that code was duplicated in the client already. In the process, however, it completely loses the network transparency that X had.

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Re: wayland/weston and maynard ???

Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:30 pm

jamesh wrote:
Heater wrote:No it is not. How is webgl running today?
I think the Anholts MESA driver accelerated WebGL pretty well, certainly from the bits I have seen. I don't think it's that far off release now.
Anholt says stable raspbian with everything intigrated with the driver around March.
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Re: wayland/weston and maynard ???

Mon Jan 04, 2016 12:15 am

jojopi wrote: In the process, however, it completely loses the network transparency that X had.
So is it goodbye to ssh -X? That would be a shame.

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Re: wayland/weston and maynard ???

Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:09 pm

rurwin wrote:
jojopi wrote: In the process, however, it completely loses the network transparency that X had.
So is it goodbye to ssh -X? That would be a shame.
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