swdrumm
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Board rev for USB-C fix?

Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:39 am

Has the a board rev for the Pi4's USB-C non-compliant charging issue been issued yet? If not, any ideas as to when that might occur? Thanks!

W. H. Heydt
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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:52 am

No, it hasn't.

It will show up when it shows up.

jamesh
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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:52 am

swdrumm wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:39 am
Has the a board rev for the Pi4's USB-C non-compliant charging issue been issued yet? If not, any ideas as to when that might occur? Thanks!r
As above, it'll probably just trickle out at some point.

Why do you need to know? Official power supplies are very cheap.
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spooker
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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:53 pm

jamesh wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:52 am
swdrumm wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:39 am
Has the a board rev for the Pi4's USB-C non-compliant charging issue been issued yet? If not, any ideas as to when that might occur? Thanks!r
As above, it'll probably just trickle out at some point.

Why do you need to know? Official power supplies are very cheap.
before xmas? Why all this secrecy?
We are not buying a board with a design flaw when a new one is coming. It is that simple. Please do not start with the issue being minor, etc etc.

Heater
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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:59 pm

spooker,
before xmas? Why all this secrecy?
Why assume secrecy? It can only be a secret if it's known by someone. Maybe nobody knows yet because the change is not finished.
We are not buying a board with a design flaw when a new one is coming. It is that simple. Please do not start with the issue being minor, etc etc.
That's OK. Do not worry. Don't feel bad about it. I'll be be buying the boards that you don't so all will be well.

It's going to be a merry xmas.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

jahboater
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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:19 pm

spooker wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:53 pm
We are not buying a board with a design flaw when a new one is coming. It is that simple. Please do not start with the issue being minor, etc etc.
You will likely not be buying any boards then, there are always revisions for most PCB's.

Why not just use the official PSU? its cheap and you can be sure it will work perfectly.
Last edited by jahboater on Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

swdrumm
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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:20 pm

jamesh wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:52 am
As above, it'll probably just trickle out at some point.
Why do you need to know? Official power supplies are very cheap.
I have several USB-C PD chargers for other devices. I don't want to have to buy - and keep track of - a bunch of other power supplies just because the RPi didn't follow the spec. If necessary, I'll wait until the Pi5 comes out, but I was hoping for a simple board rev on the current generation.

jahboater
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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:23 pm

swdrumm wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:20 pm
I have several USB-C PD chargers for other devices.
Many of those likely wont work anyway for reasons that have been published here many times already.
You need a PSU not a charger.

Heater
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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:06 pm

swdrumm,
If necessary, I'll wait until the Pi5 comes out...
Ah, I see. Clearly you do not have a massive desire or pressing need for a Pi 4 if you are prepared to wait for a couple of years for a Pi 5.

So why all the fuss about something that is not actually a problem for you?

Anyway not to worry I will buy all those Pi that you don't buy for the next couple of years. The Pi Foundation will not go hungry.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:08 pm

Heater wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:06 pm
Anyway not to worry I will buy all those Pi that you don't buy for the next couple of years. The Pi Foundation will not go hungry.
Not unless I don't get 'em first...

jamesh
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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:50 pm

swdrumm wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:20 pm
jamesh wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:52 am
As above, it'll probably just trickle out at some point.
Why do you need to know? Official power supplies are very cheap.
I have several USB-C PD chargers for other devices. I don't want to have to buy - and keep track of - a bunch of other power supplies just because the RPi didn't follow the spec. If necessary, I'll wait until the Pi5 comes out, but I was hoping for a simple board rev on the current generation.
Weird. At least two years, perhaps more, before the Pi5. The fix for the incredibly minor issue will be out before then.

But you should just buy a Pi4 now with a working power supply, they are cheap and easy to keep track off as they are white and have a RP logo on them. And remember, there's always new revision on the horizon, so you could end up always waiting.

It's ironic that there are way more issues in the SW (generically in Linux, not specifically RP, or even in WIndows or almost any software package) that are likely to affect people than this USB nonsense, yet that doesn't stop people buying kit hand over fist.
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piglet
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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:40 pm

jamesh wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:50 pm
they are cheap and easy to keep track off as they are white
Oh no! I've just discovered that one of mine is black. Should I have a hissy-fit about this production flaw in my power supply?

I'm happily waiting for the usb boot software enhancement. No rush. When it comes. Thanks.

LTolledo
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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:28 pm

Forget using USB-C chargers for the RPi4B!

Get a proper USB-C type power supply!
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Come to me with 'problems' and I'll help you find solutions"

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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:10 am

spooker wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:53 pm
Why all this secrecy?
Well, my guess would be...
spooker wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:53 pm
We are not buying a board with a design flaw when a new one is coming. It is that simple.
Not really all that simple, because how do you sell off old stock if you announce a new one is available? Imagine the chaos that would cause dealers, when people like you demand the new model and refuse to buy older stock.

Which is why they probably won't announce anything until the old stock is gone. New board revisions, if and when they become available, will likely enter the market silently, slowly displacing the older models until they have sold through. So if you want to wait for some kind of official announcement, I suspect you will be waiting for a long time (if they announce it at all).

Or you could fix it yourself.
RPi4B-USBC-MOD-sm.jpg
RPi4B-USBC-MOD-sm.jpg (70.58 KiB) Viewed 649 times
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W. H. Heydt
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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:37 am

HawaiianPi wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:10 am
Not really all that simple, because how do you sell off old stock if you announce a new one is available? Imagine the chaos that would cause dealers, when people like you demand the new model and refuse to buy older stock.
Osbourne Effect, writ small. If one wants to get an idea if the board revision is imminent, check the available stock on the main distributors. When the boards go out of stock for a while, it *may* be that the next batch in with be with a revised PCB. Or it may not...because general demand may just have gotten ahead of supply.

I am probably fairly fortunate. Prior to the advent of the Pi4B, I didn't have anything that used USB-C, so the only USB-C PSUs I have are the official RPT ones, bought specifically to support Pi4Bs.

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Gavinmc42
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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:17 am

just because the RPi didn't follow the spec.
Wow that spec means something like 60Watt, 20V Pi's.
Perhaps the Pi5 or 6 will need all that power.

I pretty sure the reason the USB-C connector was used was it is rated for 3amps.
Not as a USB-C charger purpose, just for the electrical rating.
It is also nice we don't need to worry about which way around it is.

Are there any other features that need changing?
A whole new PCB and ECN documents/process just for one resistor?
Perhaps after USB boot is working then EEPROM size can be finalised?
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HawaiianPi
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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:53 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:37 am
Osbourne Effect, writ small. If one wants to get an idea if the board revision is imminent, check the available stock on the main distributors. When the boards go out of stock for a while, it *may* be that the next batch in will be with a revised PCB.
Or dealers could be instructed to sell old stock first, before making new stock available, in which case there would be no change in availability.
Or it may not...because general demand may just have gotten ahead of supply.
Of course, the Pi4 is frequently out of stock anyway, so how do you know which "out of stock" is the meaningful one?

And for which model? The 4GB version still seems to sell out frequently, so will that one be the first to have the USB-C revision, at least as far as general availability goes?

Let's see what my magic 8-ball says...

  • Give it a shake, and:
    • Ask again later.
  • Hmm... let's try that again:
    • Better not tell you now.
  • WTF? [shake it harder]:
    • Reply hazy, try again.
  • Maybe I shook it too hard:
    • Cannot predict now.
  • One more try you little [email protected]#$%^&*!:
    • Concentrate and ask again.
  • ARGHH!!!
My mind is like a browser. 27 tabs are open, 9 aren't responding,
lots of pop-ups...and where is that annoying music coming from?

W. H. Heydt
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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:05 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:17 am
just because the RPi didn't follow the spec.
Wow that spec means something like 60Watt, 20V Pi's.
Perhaps the Pi5 or 6 will need all that power.
Gad....I hope not. That would make heatsink-and-fan systems required and liquid cooling a plausible alternative.
I pretty sure the reason the USB-C connector was used was it is rated for 3amps.
Not as a USB-C charger purpose, just for the electrical rating.
It is also nice we don't need to worry about which way around it is.
Very likely.
Are there any other features that need changing?
A whole new PCB and ECN documents/process just for one resistor?
We don't know if any other tweaks would be useful. One might cautiously hope that there will be an easy way to tell which version of Pi4B PCB one is looking at (like, say, adding a version number to the silk screen text).

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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:13 am

HawaiianPi wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:53 am
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:37 am
Osbourne Effect, writ small. If one wants to get an idea if the board revision is imminent, check the available stock on the main distributors. When the boards go out of stock for a while, it *may* be that the next batch in will be with a revised PCB.
Or dealers could be instructed to sell old stock first, before making new stock available, in which case there would be no change in availability.
Something many (most?) stock management systems probably do already. The problem is that people will figure out which vendors are still getting rid of older stock and avoid them. At the far, small end of the supply chain it may take a surprising amount of time to run out of the original version and some customers will be upset.

At one point when I was looking for a Pi2Bv1.2 I actually asked a vendor if the description for their "Pi2B" was correct. Turned out it was. They were still selling Pi2Bv1.1 boards months after the Pi2Bv1.2 had replaced it.
Or it may not...because general demand may just have gotten ahead of supply.
Of course, the Pi4 is frequently out of stock anyway, so how do you know which "out of stock" is the meaningful one?

And for which model? The 4GB version still seems to sell out frequently, so will that one be the first to have the USB-C revision, at least as far as general availability goes?
As you note, there is a certain amount of guesswork involved. And it's complicated by vendor web page descriptions not keeping up with what is actually stocked.

That's part of why I hope there is a board revision number marked. For my uses (because I'm only using RPT PSUs), it makes no practical difference, but it is nice to know what one is actually dealing with.

LTolledo
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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:49 am

swdrumm wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:20 pm
.... the RPi didn't follow the spec. .....
If the "RPi did not follow spec" it wont be on sale....

a governing body (national, legal, etc) approved the RPi board... so that means it follows specs.

are you prepared to take on that governing body (in your area) that approved the sale of RPi4B?
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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:17 am

LTolledo wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:49 am
swdrumm wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:20 pm
.... the RPi didn't follow the spec. .....
If the "RPi did not follow spec" it wont be on sale....

a governing body (national, legal, etc) approved the RPi board... so that means it follows specs.

are you prepared to take on that governing body (in your area) that approved the sale of RPi4B?
Not all standards bodies are run by governments. Not all standard bodies are able to enforce the standards they publish.

It is established that the USB-C connection on the Pi4B does not follow the USB-C power standard. This has been acknowledged by the RPT. I haven't heard of anyone telling the RPT that they can't sell the "out of standards" Pi4B.

In general, if all devices that didn't meet some standard or other couldn't be sold, there would be vast swaths of stuff on the market that would have to be withdrawn.

Heater
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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:29 am

LTolledo,
If the "RPi did not follow spec" it wont be on sale....a governing body (national, legal, etc) approved the RPi board... so that means it follows specs.
That does not follow at all.

Governments may well have regulations regarding the safety of consumer products. In terms of electro-magnetic radiation, toxicity, fire retardant properties etc, etc.

That in no way implies that the device operates in accordance with a million other standards that it may be built to. Those regulations don't even stipulate that the thing works at all! It is very common that devices are not 100% compliant to whatever industry standards they are built to.

There may be a case of misleading advertising if support for some standard is claimed and the product does not meet the spec. That is not the case here given we are always told to use a proper power supply and what specifications that supply has to meet. And a suitable Pi supply is sold by the manufacturer.

Big fuss about nothing,
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:48 am

Heater wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:29 am

Big fuss about nothing,
Amen, 'nuff said.
Self-education is, I firmly believe, the only kind of education there is - Isaac Asimov

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DougieLawson
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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:56 am

HawaiianPi wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:53 am
Let's see what my magic 8-ball says...

  • Give it a shake, and:
    • Ask again later.
  • Hmm... let's try that again:
    • Better not tell you now.
  • WTF? [shake it harder]:
    • Reply hazy, try again.
  • Maybe I shook it too hard:
    • Cannot predict now.
  • One more try you little [email protected]#$%^&*!:
    • Concentrate and ask again.
  • ARGHH!!!
Curiously, I borrowed a crystal ball (mine went offline in the "Great Crystal Ball Disaster of 1989") and got precisely those answers. There's some strange voodoo going on between that borrowed crystal ball and your magic 8-ball.
lpsw wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:48 am
Heater wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:29 am

Big fuss about nothing,
Amen, 'nuff said.
+1
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Re: Board rev for USB-C fix?

Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:38 am

DougieLawson wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:56 am
Curiously, I borrowed a crystal ball (mine went offline in the "Great Crystal Ball Disaster of 1989") and got precisely those answers. There's some strange voodoo going on between that borrowed crystal ball and your magic 8-ball.
Are they entangled?
Heater wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:29 am
Big fuss about nothing,
... but if we don't practice our fussing on the small stuff, then when something big comes along, we won't be able to fuss properly ...

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