lewmur
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Charger vs PSU

Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:23 am

I just got asked again on Quara about when the USB-C port on the Pi 4 was going to be "fixed". Well, IMO, it doesn't need fixing because it isn't broken. So called "Smart Chargers" are designed for devices that have batteries so they can be charged at a faster rate without being damaged and catching fire. The Pi 4 doesn't have a battery and therefore has NO NEED to meet the smart charging spec of USB C ports. It is MADE to work with less expensive PSUs. :roll: :roll:

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bertlea
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Re: Charger vs PSU

Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:45 am

No, I think the "fix" is referring to the issue that a high-end USB-C charger such as the one from Apple, do not able to power the Pi-4 currently available on the market. It is not about how "smart" of the charger can charge quicker or not.

jamesh
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Re: Charger vs PSU

Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:54 am

lewmur wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:23 am
I just got asked again on Quara about when the USB-C port on the Pi 4 was going to be "fixed". Well, IMO, it doesn't need fixing because it isn't broken. So called "Smart Chargers" are designed for devices that have batteries so they can be charged at a faster rate without being damaged and catching fire. The Pi 4 doesn't have a battery and therefore has NO NEED to meet the smart charging spec of USB C ports. It is MADE to work with less expensive PSUs. :roll: :roll:
It will be fixed however, simply because it's an easy change to the PCB, and it does make a minor problem go away. However, even an easy change to the PCB takes months to get through the system - design, implement, test, then update the supply chain.
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Re: Charger vs PSU

Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:01 pm

jamesh wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:54 am
lewmur wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:23 am
I just got asked again on Quara about when the USB-C port on the Pi 4 was going to be "fixed". Well, IMO, it doesn't need fixing because it isn't broken. So called "Smart Chargers" are designed for devices that have batteries so they can be charged at a faster rate without being damaged and catching fire. The Pi 4 doesn't have a battery and therefore has NO NEED to meet the smart charging spec of USB C ports. It is MADE to work with less expensive PSUs. :roll: :roll:
It will be fixed however, simply because it's an easy change to the PCB, and it does make a minor problem go away. However, even an easy change to the PCB takes months to get through the system - design, implement, test, then update the supply chain.
if it doesn't need fixing, don't fix it (but it really does need fixing, so it will be fixed).
minor problem? when you don't comply with standards it is not a minor problem.
if the raspberry pi 4 was a car you would expect that you would be able to drive it with normal gasoline as well as with high octane gasoline, so not a minor issue that it does not comply with the USB-C specification

jamesh
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Re: Charger vs PSU

Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:38 pm

spooker wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:01 pm
jamesh wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:54 am
lewmur wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:23 am
I just got asked again on Quara about when the USB-C port on the Pi 4 was going to be "fixed". Well, IMO, it doesn't need fixing because it isn't broken. So called "Smart Chargers" are designed for devices that have batteries so they can be charged at a faster rate without being damaged and catching fire. The Pi 4 doesn't have a battery and therefore has NO NEED to meet the smart charging spec of USB C ports. It is MADE to work with less expensive PSUs. :roll: :roll:
It will be fixed however, simply because it's an easy change to the PCB, and it does make a minor problem go away. However, even an easy change to the PCB takes months to get through the system - design, implement, test, then update the supply chain.
if it doesn't need fixing, don't fix it (but it really does need fixing, so it will be fixed).
minor problem? when you don't comply with standards it is not a minor problem.
if the raspberry pi 4 was a car you would expect that you would be able to drive it with normal gasoline as well as with high octane gasoline, so not a minor issue that it does not comply with the USB-C specification
Minor is when it only affects a small percentage of users. Since we have sold over 1M Pi's and it's clear that very few of those people see the issue, that is by definition a minor problem. It's a numbers game.

It's still going to be fixed.
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lewmur
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Re: Charger vs PSU

Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:02 pm

bertlea wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:45 am
No, I think the "fix" is referring to the issue that a high-end USB-C charger such as the one from Apple, do not able to power the Pi-4 currently available on the market. It is not about how "smart" of the charger can charge quicker or not.
Read what you wrote "high-end USB-C CHARGER". The Pi 4 doesn't NEED a CHARGER!!!! I know what the fix "refers to" and I find it irrelevant.

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Re: Charger vs PSU

Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:18 pm

spooker wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:01 pm
jamesh wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:54 am
lewmur wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:23 am
I just got asked again on Quara about when the USB-C port on the Pi 4 was going to be "fixed". Well, IMO, it doesn't need fixing because it isn't broken. So called "Smart Chargers" are designed for devices that have batteries so they can be charged at a faster rate without being damaged and catching fire. The Pi 4 doesn't have a battery and therefore has NO NEED to meet the smart charging spec of USB C ports. It is MADE to work with less expensive PSUs. :roll: :roll:
It will be fixed however, simply because it's an easy change to the PCB, and it does make a minor problem go away. However, even an easy change to the PCB takes months to get through the system - design, implement, test, then update the supply chain.
if it doesn't need fixing, don't fix it (but it really does need fixing, so it will be fixed).
minor problem? when you don't comply with standards it is not a minor problem.
if the raspberry pi 4 was a car you would expect that you would be able to drive it with normal gasoline as well as with high octane gasoline, so not a minor issue that it does not comply with the USB-C specification
I would never put high octane gas in a car designed to run on regular and I certainly wouldn't expect it to run diesel. Again, a Smart Charger is DESIGNED for devices with a battery to CHARGE. The Pi 4 is DESIGNED to use a PSU. As James said, it is an easy "fix" in the long term, so it will be done in the LONG term. But it is NOT a design flaw.

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Re: Charger vs PSU

Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:29 pm

lewmur wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:18 pm
spooker wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:01 pm
jamesh wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:54 am


It will be fixed however, simply because it's an easy change to the PCB, and it does make a minor problem go away. However, even an easy change to the PCB takes months to get through the system - design, implement, test, then update the supply chain.
if it doesn't need fixing, don't fix it (but it really does need fixing, so it will be fixed).
minor problem? when you don't comply with standards it is not a minor problem.
if the raspberry pi 4 was a car you would expect that you would be able to drive it with normal gasoline as well as with high octane gasoline, so not a minor issue that it does not comply with the USB-C specification
I would never put high octane gas in a car designed to run on regular and I certainly wouldn't expect it to run diesel. Again, a Smart Charger is DESIGNED for devices with a battery to CHARGE. The Pi 4 is DESIGNED to use a PSU. As James said, it is an easy "fix" in the long term, so it will be done in the LONG term. But it is NOT a design flaw.
I'd disagree - I think it is a design flaw, just not a particularly heinous one, with only a tiny impact.
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bjtheone
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Re: Charger vs PSU

Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:48 pm

lewmur wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:18 pm
I would never put high octane gas in a car designed to run on regular and I certainly wouldn't expect it to run diesel. Again, a Smart Charger is DESIGNED for devices with a battery to CHARGE. The Pi 4 is DESIGNED to use a PSU. As James said, it is an easy "fix" in the long term, so it will be done in the LONG term. But it is NOT a design flaw.
Given that it is not compliant with the USB C spec, which is the reason that SMART chargers cannot identify what it is and hence refuse to supply power, I would quantify the issue as a design flaw. However, it is a very minor design flaw and only an issue if you are trying to power an inexpensive SBC by a charger that costs significantly more than the SBC in question (at least my HP and Lenovo chargers do). It works fine if you power it by a dumb USB PSU (lie the inexpensive and official Raspberry PSU) that just supplies the 5V. Certainly is not the "oh my God, its a disaster" click bait discussion that ensued when it was first discovered. The fact that it has died away to a non issue, supports this. Plus the fix is a single SMT resistor. It will get done at the next board spin, but in and of itself not worth of a board spin.

Early tech adopters are the folks that tend to have spare very expensive USB C adaptors lying around. All most no one is going to go out and buy a $80 adaptor from another company to run a $35 SBC, when the SBC company sells one for $10.

lewmur
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Re: Charger vs PSU

Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:40 pm

jamesh wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:29 pm


I'd disagree - I think it is a design flaw, just not a particularly heinous one, with only a tiny impact.
How small does a flaw need to be to no longer be considered a flaw? It can technically be a flaw, and in this case, because the "fix" would have been simple, an unnecessary one, but IMO, such a minuscule one that it doesn't deserve the title. Calling it a flaw just gives ammunition to the Pi 4 detractors.

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Re: Charger vs PSU

Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:14 pm

lewmur wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:40 pm
Calling it a flaw just gives ammunition to the Pi 4 detractors.
Let detractors detract or inform them, and others, of the actual nature and scope of this design flaw.

It is a design flaw. Well, more an "oops!" in my opinion, and it doesn't affect that many people. At best it's an annoyance, though I appreciate anyone affected has the right to be annoyed, but I suspect most people are choosing to be annoyed.

Trying to pretend it's not a design flaw is, in my opinion, worse than accepting the facts of the matter.

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Re: Charger vs PSU

Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:32 pm

All products have flaws, some insignificant, some annoying, some really bad. This one is insignificant. The mirror on the Hubble space telescope - that was a bad one, the mix up with imperial and metric units on the Mars climate orbiter , that was a bad one, the fact I bash my knee on the central dash of my car when i have the seat in a comfortable position, that's medium.
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Re: Charger vs PSU

Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:10 pm

jamesh wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:32 pm
All products have flaws, some insignificant, some annoying, some really bad. This one is insignificant. The mirror on the Hubble space telescope - that was a bad one, the mix up with imperial and metric units on the Mars climate orbiter , that was a bad one, the fact I bash my knee on the central dash of my car when i have the seat in a comfortable position, that's medium.
The fact my garage door remote doesn't open or close the door when the outside temperature drops below 12°C is a bad one :(

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Re: Charger vs PSU

Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:38 pm

rpdom wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:10 pm
jamesh wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:32 pm
All products have flaws, some insignificant, some annoying, some really bad. This one is insignificant. The mirror on the Hubble space telescope - that was a bad one, the mix up with imperial and metric units on the Mars climate orbiter , that was a bad one, the fact I bash my knee on the central dash of my car when i have the seat in a comfortable position, that's medium.
The fact my garage door remote doesn't open or close the door when the outside temperature drops below 12°C is a bad one :(
That's a medium one. An example of a bad design flaw was the zipper on a tent tested by Peter Freuchen for Arctic use. The zipper froze when he was outside and couldn't get back in while he was on the Greenland icecap in winter.

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