Raspberry Pi Forums

so how about a 64bit pi?

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/applie ... _news_stmp

The impression I get is that within the next year we will start seeing 64-bit phones/tablets and I suspect that within a year or so after that we will start seeing hobbyist friendly 64-bit arm boards but I would expect them to be a lot more expensive than the Pi.

Eventually I expect we will see cortex A53 systems move into the price range of the Pi/cubie/BBB but probablly not for a few years.

BTW someone in the debian arm community contacted APM about that micro ATX dev system they were talking about and was apparently quoted a price of $2945. It's also not clear whether it's available to just anyone or whether you need to convince them you are worthy of having one and/or sign a NDA.

plugwash wrote:The impression I get is that within the next year we will start seeing 64-bit phones/tablets.

iPhone 5S since last sept, iPad Air since last Oct, iPad mini ditto. Some Android devices are expected later this year - not sure if any already ship? - despite the famous incident of the Qualcomm exec claiming it was a stupid idea.

If you accept the microsoft surface 3 as a tablet (I'm not sure; seems too big to me somehow, and a fan? really?) then it is 64 bit.

But the real issue is whether an ARM v8 architecture SoC could appear in a Pi version. I suspect it will - but not for a couple of years at least. Any company in this market - like Broadcom - will want to make v8 SoCs sooner rather than later and then it's simply a matter of how quickly the prices can be pushed down.

solar3000 wrote:so how about a 64bit pi?

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/applie ... _news_stmp

How about reading this sticky

http://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewt ... 63&t=56598

..another Pi in the sky posting, I am fed up of them

solar3000 wrote:so how about a 64bit pi?

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/applie ... _news_stmp

It will be a SoC meant for servers, that means it will be relatively power hungry! So it will not be suitable for a PI like device!

Also, in that market "readiness" means its ready in theory, but the way from there to chips can take at least a year.

Its "PI in the SKY".

Russia is planning on using cortex a-53 and a-57 to replace x86 intel and AMD processors for desktop use. Nvidia updated their driver stack to allow their desktop, workstation, and server GPUs for use with ARM CPUs that have PCIe busses.

I don't see any 64 bit designs making it into a $35 design anytime soon.

64-bit isn't that much hot topic among mobile device makers. Apple has it but not many actually wan to rush with 64 bits with ARM. They rather want to battle with numbers of 32-bit cores

Jessie wrote:Russia is planning on using cortex a-53 and a-57 to replace x86 intel and AMD processors for desktop use. Nvidia updated their driver stack to allow their desktop, workstation, and server GPUs for use with ARM CPUs that have PCIe busses.

I don't see any 64 bit designs making it into a $35 design anytime soon.

Maybe not in $35 designs, but in mini-desktop PC's they could be serious competition for x86 systems, especially if they don't have to support legacy hardware only needed to support Windows.

Do you have a link to the news site that has info about these "Russian plans", sounds interesting!

Well at least Linux Developers are on the Ball, ARM64 as well as ARM32 was added from Kernel 3.7.

Does not effect the forseeable future plans of RPi though........

Many manufacturers have released ARM64 roadmaps as it is 2 years since ARM64 was officially released

http://www.realworldtech.com/arm64

Old news is no news..........

riklaunim wrote:64-bit isn't that much hot topic among mobile device makers. Apple has it but not many actually wan to rush with 64 bits with ARM. They rather want to battle with numbers of 32-bit cores

In my best Panto voice. "Oh yes it is!"

All major mobile makers are gasping for 64bit ARM processors, to compete with Apple - it's marketing driven.

I was originally in the what the hell for camp, but having talked to various people who know about this stuff, there are definite performance gains to be had. A53 cores are big though. So won't be cheap enough for Raspi's for a while.

mahjongg wrote:

Jessie wrote:Russia is planning on using cortex a-53 and a-57 to replace x86 intel and AMD processors for desktop use. Nvidia updated their driver stack to allow their desktop, workstation, and server GPUs for use with ARM CPUs that have PCIe busses.

I don't see any 64 bit designs making it into a $35 design anytime soon.

Maybe not in $35 designs, but in mini-desktop PC's they could be serious competition for x86 systems, especially if they don't have to support legacy hardware only needed to support Windows.

Do you have a link to the news site that has info about these "Russian plans", sounds interesting!

I saw this one earlier:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/06/23 ... 64bit_arm/
The Register may put a humorous spin on their headlines and things, but the reports are usually fairly accurate.

jamesh wrote:

riklaunim wrote:64-bit isn't that much hot topic among mobile device makers. Apple has it but not many actually wan to rush with 64 bits with ARM. They rather want to battle with numbers of 32-bit cores

In my best Panto voice. "Oh yes it is!"

All major mobile makers are gasping for 64bit ARM processors, to compete with Apple - it's marketing driven.

Flagship device sales are important, but mostly to Samsung and alike. Cheap SoCs make the really big quantity sales and they always be there, especially from China, and they do quad and octa core SoCs at the moment. Quads are the low-price sector. And they do change rapidly.

timrowledge wrote:iPhone 5S since last sept, iPad Air since last Oct, iPad mini ditto.

Yeah, apple suprised everyone by putting out 64-bit arm hardware way ahead of everyone else. Unfortunately it's too locked down to be of use to linux porters and their SoC is highly unlikely to be seen in any "hackable" boards. It's just not apple's style.

Some Android devices are expected later this year - not sure if any already ship?

I haven't heard of any shipping and the debian/ubuntu arm community is desperate for usable 64-bit arm hardware so if it exists it's so obscure that none of us have heard of it.

If you accept the microsoft surface 3 as a tablet (I'm not sure; seems too big to me somehow, and a fan? really?) then it is 64 bit.

Do you have any sources for their being a "surface 3"? all I see is a surface pro 3.

The surface pro line are 64-bit but not arm.

But the real issue is whether an ARM v8 architecture SoC could appear in a Pi version. I suspect it will - but not for a couple of years at least. Any company in this market - like Broadcom - will want to make v8 SoCs sooner rather than later and then it's simply a matter of how quickly the prices can be pushed down.

Yeah, I suspect it will take some time until it makes it's way down to the bottom of the market single/dual core SoCs.

mahjongg wrote:

Jessie wrote:Russia is planning on using cortex a-53 and a-57 to replace x86 intel and AMD processors for desktop use. Nvidia updated their driver stack to allow their desktop, workstation, and server GPUs for use with ARM CPUs that have PCIe busses.

I don't see any 64 bit designs making it into a $35 design anytime soon.

Maybe not in $35 designs, but in mini-desktop PC's they could be serious competition for x86 systems, especially if they don't have to support legacy hardware only needed to support Windows.

Do you have a link to the news site that has info about these "Russian plans", sounds interesting!

http://en.itar-tass.com/economy/736804

In that case I wouldn't mind having a fanless 64bit server.

riklaunim wrote:

jamesh wrote:

riklaunim wrote:64-bit isn't that much hot topic among mobile device makers. Apple has it but not many actually wan to rush with 64 bits with ARM. They rather want to battle with numbers of 32-bit cores

In my best Panto voice. "Oh yes it is!"

All major mobile makers are gasping for 64bit ARM processors, to compete with Apple - it's marketing driven.

Flagship device sales are important, but mostly to Samsung and alike. Cheap SoCs make the really big quantity sales and they always be there, especially from China, and they do quad and octa core SoCs at the moment. Quads are the low-price sector. And they do change rapidly.

Although China are catching, SS are the biggest seller of mobiles, so their attitude is vital to SoC manufacturers. I guarantee almost all SoC makers are working on 64 bit parts right now. The problem with the lower end of the market is the crap margins. It's hardly worth making a chip when the margins are so low and the cost to develop so high. The larger numbers tend not to offset the decreased price as well as the higher end parts.

The problem with more cores is the software - unless it is designed to work over multiple cores you don't get much of a speed up once you get over 4 cores (not many people are doing more than 4 heavy duty tasks at once). 64bit gives a speed up per core. So there is a definite advantage to it over multiple cores. There are also memory issues with lots of cores - they start to get in each others way, and the design of the MMU gets more difficult. And multiple cores take a lot of power (hence some of the Octocore devices turn cores off, or have different powered cores for different use case - See ARM's BigLittle architecture), so battery life is reduced and handset temperature goes up.

When will cheap 64's hit the market? About a year and a half to two years I reckon. But there will be many cheap multicore devices around before then - they are already here from some of the quicker to market people (however, quicker to marker <> better devices)

plugwash wrote:

timrowledge wrote: If you accept the microsoft surface 3 as a tablet (I'm not sure; seems too big to me somehow, and a fan? really?) then it is 64 bit.

Do you have any sources for their being a "surface 3"? all I see is a surface pro 3.

The surface pro line are 64-bit but not arm.

You're quite right, and indeed I was referring to the 'surface pro 3' device. And indeed, answering the basic 64-bit question rather than specifically 64 bit ARM.

Something that needs to be remembered - and seems to be skipped over by a lot of posts on the matter - is that ARM v8 is a new architecture with some pretty drastic changes from 'old ARM'. The speed improvements we see on our shiny iPad Airs are fairly amazing given that the cpu speed is not much changed.

plugwash wrote:The impression I get is that within the next year we will start seeing 64-bit phones/tablets and I suspect that within a year or so after that we will start seeing hobbyist friendly 64-bit arm boards but I would expect them to be a lot more expensive than the Pi.

Eventually I expect we will see cortex A53 systems move into the price range of the Pi/cubie/BBB but probablly not for a few years.

BTW someone in the debian arm community contacted APM about that micro ATX dev system they were talking about and was apparently quoted a price of $2945. It's also not clear whether it's available to just anyone or whether you need to convince them you are worthy of having one and/or sign a NDA.

Isn't the new iPad=iPhone 64-bit?

mrpi64 wrote:

plugwash wrote:The impression I get is that within the next year we will start seeing 64-bit phones/tablets and I suspect that within a year or so after that we will start seeing hobbyist friendly 64-bit arm boards but I would expect them to be a lot more expensive than the Pi.

Eventually I expect we will see cortex A53 systems move into the price range of the Pi/cubie/BBB but probablly not for a few years.

BTW someone in the debian arm community contacted APM about that micro ATX dev system they were talking about and was apparently quoted a price of $2945. It's also not clear whether it's available to just anyone or whether you need to convince them you are worthy of having one and/or sign a NDA.

Isn't the new iPad=iPhone 64-bit?

Yes.

jamesh wrote:

mrpi64 wrote:

plugwash wrote:The impression I get is that within the next year we will start seeing 64-bit phones/tablets and I suspect that within a year or so after that we will start seeing hobbyist friendly 64-bit arm boards but I would expect them to be a lot more expensive than the Pi.

Eventually I expect we will see cortex A53 systems move into the price range of the Pi/cubie/BBB but probablly not for a few years.

BTW someone in the debian arm community contacted APM about that micro ATX dev system they were talking about and was apparently quoted a price of $2945. It's also not clear whether it's available to just anyone or whether you need to convince them you are worthy of having one and/or sign a NDA.

Isn't the new iPad=iPhone 64-bit?

Yes.

There you are. Even though there is no real use for 64-bit power in handheld devices yet.

Well ARM is requiring licensees to jump to 64-bit to add additional instructions and registers. So while there is no need for more than 4GB of ram in the ARM space in most cases ARM holdings is forcing the markets hand by limiting the upward performance of their 32-bit designers. IMO it is a wise move because it will force 64-bit development before it is required so the ecosystem will already be there.

Jessie wrote:Well ARM is requiring licensees to jump to 64-bit to add additional instructions and registers. So while there is no need for more than 4GB of ram in the ARM space in most cases ARM holdings is forcing the markets hand by limiting the upward performance of their 32-bit designers. IMO it is a wise move because it will force 64-bit development before it is required so the ecosystem will already be there.

What are the licences for?

mrpi64 wrote:What are the licences for?

Making ARM chips.

ARM don't make any chips themselves. They sell licences to use their ARM core designs in other chips, like Broadcom have done with the SoC on the Pi.

mrpi64 wrote:

Jessie wrote:Well ARM is requiring licensees to jump to 64-bit to add additional instructions and registers. So while there is no need for more than 4GB of ram in the ARM space in most cases ARM holdings is forcing the markets hand by limiting the upward performance of their 32-bit designers. IMO it is a wise move because it will force 64-bit development before it is required so the ecosystem will already be there.

What are the licences for?

This is a brief overview of licensing available from ARM Holdings: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_Holdings#Licensees