kghunt
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I am not a thief and I am in the minority!

Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:20 pm

Personally I do not illegally download/stream or obtain any content. I subscribe to various services like netflix spotify and lovefilm. I do not own a single unlicensed peice of software or media and I like it that way. If I wan't something I will pay for it if I can't afford it I will wait.

I went round our office a few weeks back just asking people if they download illegally or not and out of around 50 people there was only myself and one other that stick to copyright law. I was amazed at how many people stream and download illegally. It was a complete cross section of people from wealthy to (not wealthy), technical and not technical. People also seem to come up with the most bizarre ways to justify it to themselves.

The general consensus is that almost everyone I spoke to agreed that it is illegal but while they can get away with it they will! I have tried to convince people that it is theft and illegal, just the same as walking into a shop and walking out with goods but to no avail.

Am I the only person in the world who doesn't have illegal content?
Last edited by kghunt on Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RaTTuS
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Re: I am not a thief and I am in the minority!

Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:26 pm

no
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kghunt
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Re: I am not a thief and I am in the minority!

Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:28 pm

Haha Cheers Rattus I am not alone.

Ravenous
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Re: I am not a thief and I am in the minority!

Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:56 pm

Let's put it this way... as a student I stole. In those days it was borrowing people's LPs (remember those?) and making taped copies of them.

Nowadays as a middle-aged bloke with a job, I buy physical CDs (remember those?!) though I rip them to hard disc, which in the UK is, I think, still technically a copyright violation at the moment...

I forgot what the moral of my post was going to be. :oops:

toxibunny
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Re: I am not a thief and I am in the minority!

Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:00 pm

Piracy isn't theft...
note: I may or may not know what I'm talking about...

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joan
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Re: I am not a thief and I am in the minority!

Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:20 pm

toxibunny wrote:Piracy isn't theft...
I'm fairly sure piracy is theft. Can't see the point of all those films else. Copyright infringement isn't theft.

@kghunt

In the UK taping and keeping videos of TV programmes after you have watched the video is copyright infringement. Did you never do that?

kghunt
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Re: I am not a thief and I am in the minority!

Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:55 pm

Back in the vhs days yes I taped the odd program But this is a legal grey area just like modern DVRs they are not banned or prosecuted. However downloading movies is.

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jojopi
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Re: I am not a thief and I am in the minority!

Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:00 pm

kghunt wrote:Back in the vhs days yes I taped the odd program But this is a legal grey area just like modern DVRs they are not banned or prosecuted. However downloading movies is.
Arguably all individual, non-profit copyright infringement is a legal grey area. It is usually not "illegal" or a "crime", so you cannot be "prosecuted" for it. Instead, you can be sued by the copyright holder, if they think it is in their interest, and the case is then subject to the relatively low civil law burden of proof.

Off-air recording in the UK is actually one of the less grey areas. Before 1988 it was infringement unless you had the broadcaster's permission or other specific exemption. Since then it has been allowed for the purpose of viewing once at a more convenient time, in domestic premises. Lending the tape to a friend would be both morally and legally equivalent to sharing on the internet.

It is nice that you respect others' rights, and pay for the content you appreciate. But you should really try to avoid libelling your colleagues with false accusations of criminality as well.

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scruss
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Re: I am not a thief and I am in the minority!

Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:15 pm

kghunt wrote:… I subscribe to various services like netflix spotify
If my musician friends are to be believed, the royalty rates from Spotify might as well be stealing. At 0.37¢/play (2012 rates), that's not going to keep them fed.
‘Remember the Golden Rule of Selling: “Do not resort to violence.”’ — McGlashan.

W. H. Heydt
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Re: I am not a thief and I am in the minority!

Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:54 pm

kghunt wrote:Back in the vhs days yes I taped the odd program But this is a legal grey area just like modern DVRs they are not banned or prosecuted. However downloading movies is.
Arguably since the Betamax decision by the US Supreme Court, at least in the US, taping off the air is perfectly legal. Of course, one could go to earlier decisions, back in the day of reel-to-reel 1/4" tape, that taping radio broadcasts is legal and point out that TV broadcasts also involve radio waves, so what's the issue again?

W. H. Heydt
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Re: I am not a thief and I am in the minority!

Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:56 pm

scruss wrote:
kghunt wrote:… I subscribe to various services like netflix spotify
If my musician friends are to be believed, the royalty rates from Spotify might as well be stealing. At 0.37¢/play (2012 rates), that's not going to keep them fed.
Copyright ownership (or trademark or patent rights, for that matter) is no guarantee of making a profit off those rights. Yes, I think artists should get more, but they're going to have to find a way to successfully fight for that "more" to get it.

kghunt
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Re: I am not a thief and I am in the minority!

Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:05 am

Taping flight of the navigator is a bit different to downloading the DVD screener of an unreleased movie or the latest season of game of thrones when they don't even subscribe to the channel that originally airs it.

The people I known are not sharing things they own a copyright too just movies they downloaded of the net that usually are still in theatres.

Also on Spotify some of my main playlists have been played at least 500 times so I think its worth it for the artist. I use Spotify constantly its a good job I have unlimited data allowance because between Spotify and Netflix alone I usually top 10gb on phone.

poing
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Re: I am not a thief and I am in the minority!

Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:32 am

I use HDs mainly to store RAW photos from my own camera (and I have a lot of HDs as photography is my job) while I pay the entertainment industry with each HD I buy to compensate them for 'lost copyrights due to copies of copyrighted material' as invoked by the government.

So who is the thief?

toxibunny
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Re: I am not a thief and I am in the minority!

Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:39 am

Copyright infringement is an interesting thing because although in a logical way, it's difficult to morally justify and easy to condemn, it also 'doesn't occur in nature' in a sense, so humans haven't really evolved much in the way of intuition about it. This is simultaneously the reason why so many people are totally cool with doing something they agree is wrong, and the reason why the big media companies have to put so much effort into marketing it as 'Theft'.

My solution? Automatic micropayments, and also donate buttons. At least until we make money obsolete, anyway...

edit: well, that'd be part of a solution, anyway. I'd also like to see some way to weight the payments based on how much I enjoy the whatever.
note: I may or may not know what I'm talking about...

mikerr
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Re: I am not a thief and I am in the minority!

Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:07 am

We all know it is "wrong" (to varying degree of wrong), but yes I find it interesting that many people
who would not dream of putting a foot wrong legally in any other minor sense, happily do it too.

I guess its a case of people being as honest as the likelihood of getting caught,
and it being viewed as a victimless action.


Disclaimer: "My name is Mike and I'm an occasional downloader"
- but for me netflix and lovefilm have reduced that massively
( I also have an unlimited cinema card for £15/month which is a bargain)


The film/TV industry is at the same place the music industry was a few years ago.

Desperately trying to cling on to an outmoded model
( physical media, restricted regions, restricted broadcast channels, long times to release)
and instead of embracing the new (worldwide streaming/download) - they just try to label it as theft.

In the case of the music industry it was apple that "helped" them modernise via itunes, but screwed them in the process.

kghunt
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Re: I am not a thief and I am in the minority!

Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:09 am

According to The Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (amended 2002). Downloading or distributing content without permission of the copyright holder is an offence and is subkect to Civil action. However if you share the content also it is "bootlegging" and can carry a prison term.

Whether it is illegal or not is irrelevant it is wrong. I wouldnt steal my neighbours car if I could get away with it because there is a loophole that says it is not illegal. People rely too much on the law to tell them what is right and wrong when they know themselves that taking/using/distributing someone else's property without their permission is wrong. Be it physical/intellectual or digital.

Code: Select all

We all know it is "wrong" (to varying degree of wrong), but yes I find it interesting that many people 
who would not dream of putting a foot wrong legally in any other minor sense, happily do it too. 
I agree with this statement it is just like Plato's invisibility ring.

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jojopi
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Re: I am not a thief and I am in the minority!

Tue Jan 07, 2014 1:32 pm

kghunt wrote:According to The Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (amended 2002). Downloading or distributing content without permission of the copyright holder is an offence and is subkect to Civil action. However if you share the content also it is "bootlegging" and can carry a prison term.
I do not see any mention of "bootleg" in CDPA, and I believe the term normally refers to an unauthorized recording of a live performance, rather than a copy of a legitimate recording. (Again this is an unofficial term, adopted from alcohol smuggling, to make an infringement sound more illegal than it actually is.)

The offences in CDPA arise when the infringement is "for sale or hire", "in the course of a business", or "to such an extent as to affect prejudicially the owner". Just "sharing" is unlikely to be sufficient.

Incidentally, there is something of a loophole with respect to stealing your neighbour's car. It is difficult to prove that you intended to permanently deprive, and were not simply borrowing. That is why there exists an alternative offence of "taking a conveyance without the consent of the owner".

Dutch_Master
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Re: I am not a thief and I am in the minority!

Tue Jan 07, 2014 1:50 pm

Obviously the law differs from country to country. Dutch copyright law allows the downloading of material, but prohibits the sharing of such. It also allows the user to make a copy for personal use after the work has been purchased. However, a new law levies a fee on every electronic device that has storage capacity (harddrives, SD cards, mobile phones, etc) to "compensate for illegally downloaded material as everyone does that" :evil: Since this law came into effect (1-1-13) I download illegal material, as I've already paid compensation for it :roll:

Ravenous
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Re: I am not a thief and I am in the minority!

Tue Jan 07, 2014 1:56 pm

Come on everybody, take a deep breath and relax. There are much more extreme crimes going on in the world. (I myself am a murderer, if Morrissey is to be believed.)

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scruss
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Re: I am not a thief and I am in the minority!

Tue Jan 07, 2014 2:03 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:Copyright ownership (or trademark or patent rights, for that matter) is no guarantee of making a profit off those rights.
But it does give you the right to control who makes profits from your work. For this reason, my friends Arnie and Ivan have both pulled streaming rights for their music, reckoning that Spotify and others are keeping too much of the ad revenue. They got roughly the same revenue selling one album on iTunes as a year's streaming revenue from Spotify.
‘Remember the Golden Rule of Selling: “Do not resort to violence.”’ — McGlashan.

W. H. Heydt
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Re: I am not a thief and I am in the minority!

Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:29 am

scruss wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote:Copyright ownership (or trademark or patent rights, for that matter) is no guarantee of making a profit off those rights.
But it does give you the right to control who makes profits from your work. For this reason, my friends Arnie and Ivan have both pulled streaming rights for their music, reckoning that Spotify and others are keeping too much of the ad revenue. They got roughly the same revenue selling one album on iTunes as a year's streaming revenue from Spotify.
Not exactly. It gives the copyright holder the ability to control who *doesn't* get to even try to profit. It still doesn't mean that anyone that is permitted (even the actual copyright holder) will make a profit. I'll grant that it's a fine distinction, but I think it's a real one.

ame
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Re: I am not a thief and I am in the minority!

Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:08 am

kghunt wrote:I wouldnt steal my neighbours car [sic]
Right, but you'd download one if you could.

johndough
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Re: I am not a thief and I am in the minority!

Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:35 am

Hi

Yeah! Download a copy of my neighboUr's car, and then use a 3D printer to bootleg one :lol:


OOH! an American spellchecker neighboUr neighbor, I had to download a 'U'
to spell correctly, is that a crime? Even worse I then copied it.

Ravenous
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Re: I am not a thief and I am in the minority!

Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:45 am

johndough wrote:I had to download a 'U'
to spell correctly, is that a crime? Even worse I then copied it.
Well the font design is probably registered somewhere, so if you just use that U here on the forum you're OK but if you do a screen grab and try to use that letter anywhere else, you may be in big trouble!

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ric96
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Re: I am not a thief and I am in the minority!

Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:01 am

People should actually learn to share more and not for profit
earn as much u should, not be greedy!!
Learn from the OPEN-SOURCE COMMUNITY
their products are free (sometimes partly) and, even they earn a living but not by over-pricing their products!!

Go Open Source!!!
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