judderman
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Re: Manufacturer Backlash

Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:47 pm

Hi all

Does anyone think the foundation will come across any flak from more mainstream producers worried about the cheapness of the kit?

Given just RaspBMC, which would seem to give most of the functions of a far more expensive unit, not to mention what other uses are found after release, is there not a chance that vested interests could try to start spreading FUD at best to stop their products being undercut?

I'd like to think I'm being a bit paranoid  & they'll take it in the spirit it is intended. Whaddya think?

Regards, Stewart

spamel
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Re: Manufacturer Backlash

Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:49 pm

What can they legitimately do though?  If they want to compete, they need to reduce their prices accordingly.  We live in a rip off society, maybe the RasPi could redress the balance.  Our value for money is pretty much assured in this project, although as it isn't being sold for profit one could argue that is the reason WHY it is so cheap.  But how much would the RasPi cost if it WAS being sold for profit? I dread to think.

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grumpyoldgit
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Re: Manufacturer Backlash

Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:51 pm

At the end of the day, the Pi is a low powered cheap piece of kit. It is not intended to be in competition with a £1,000 gamer PC from PC World so is hardly a threat.

spamel
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Re: Manufacturer Backlash

Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:03 pm

A £1000 Gamer PC is probably massively overpriced though.  The RasPi could highlight that fact.  I understand companies need to make a profit but we get fleeced left, right and Chelsea!

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grumpyoldgit
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Re: Manufacturer Backlash

Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:12 pm

But the Pi isn't going to be capable of playing the games that a high spec machine would be capable of. It doesn't have a screen, keyboard, mouse or drives or the same processor power or RAM. It is a niche product. It will, of course, be interesting to see what it can do but it really isn't competition for manufacturers of standard PCs.

spamel
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Re: Manufacturer Backlash

Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:20 pm

I TOTALLY understand that, but when the RasPi shows how cheaply something can be made, it begs the question of how much is a high end gaming PC REALLY worth? 200 quid for all component parts and manufacturing? 300? 400? Certainly not a 1000!

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grumpyoldgit
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Re: Manufacturer Backlash

Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:29 pm

Obviously not. It has always been possible to build a PC for a cheaper price than in the shops. I would assume that most posters on here probably  build their own PCs anyway,or at least have done it at some point.

judderman
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Re: Manufacturer Backlash

Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:32 pm

spamel said:


What can they legitimately do though?


It's my paranoia about what they might do non-legitimately that prompted my post (I think our MD has only 2 questions on his mind - How much money do you have? & Why isn't it mine?).  A bit like major ice cream manufacturers not letting Ben & Jerry ship product in the trucks alongside theirs when they were starting out - a tactic which I hear B & Js now use against other start-ups (this may be just gossip)

I'm not really thinking of £1000 gaming PCs, more the £100 - £200 entertainment devices, and some of the things that others have been raising when they say "why buy an RPi, when for twice the price you can get X" - if the makers of X see sales lost to RPis, they could well cry unfairness that a charity is undercutting them & lobby for restrictions - spoiling what is a very laudable & worthy aim.

I hope it doesn't come to any of this though.

Regards, Stewart

spamel
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Re: Manufacturer Backlash

Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:34 pm

Even building your own, you are not getting the parts at cost though, so my question is what is the markup here? How much are we being seen off?  As far as I am concerned, massively!

I made my first PC, i think it had Windows 98 put on first, then ME came out shortly after so it gives you an idea of the time frame.  I enjoyed building it, it was all new to me and a friend had to install the OS for me.  I cannot remember how much it cost, but I will bet it was on a par with the RasPi and yet a lot more expensive! lol!

judderman
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Re: Manufacturer Backlash

Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:36 pm

spamel said:


I TOTALLY understand that, but when the RasPi shows how cheaply something can be made, it begs the question of how much is a high end gaming PC REALLY worth? 200 quid for all component parts and manufacturing? 300? 400? Certainly not a 1000!


There's an article in the new PC Format comparing top of the range (£3k on graphics, processor & disk) with the bottom end (£300 on the same) & there's very little to choose between the 2 as far as gameplay goes across Skyrim, Crysis 2 & Dirt 3.

Regards, Stewart

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grumpyoldgit
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Re: Manufacturer Backlash

Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:44 pm

It would be interesting to work out what the mark-up on a bog standard PC is. I suspect it is not a huge amount. You do have to allow for the OS and the software of course. Buying a bare bones PC can work out quite cheaply. Ebuyer will sell you a reasonable bare box for just over £200.

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abishur
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Re: Manufacturer Backlash

Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:47 pm

Well it helps to remember that the Raspberry Pi Foundation is a charity organization.  They're not out to make a huge profit or drive anyone out of business.  Ergo they provide these boards at (near) cost since every board we buy helps get another board into the hands of a needy child somewhere.

As such I don't think manufacturers are going to be lining up to attack a charity.
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jamesh
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Re: Manufacturer Backlash

Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:49 pm

My twin core Athon x2 something or other with 4GB RAM, OK  graphics card and 1TB disk and rewriteable DVD drive was between £200 and £250 - can't remember exactly. Bought with Linux installed so no Windows licence. Has been doing the job nicely for three years or so, on 24/7. Fan's getting a bit noisy...

I reckon that very little profit through the channels was made on that.
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spurious
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Re: Manufacturer Backlash

Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:57 pm

not sure I see the threat?!

have you taken your Thorazine?  ;)

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liz
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Re: Manufacturer Backlash

Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:10 pm

spamel said:


What can they legitimately do though?  If they want to compete, they need to reduce their prices accordingly.  We live in a rip off society, maybe the RasPi could redress the balance.  Our value for money is pretty much assured in this project, although as it isn't being sold for profit one could argue that is the reason WHY it is so cheap.  But how much would the RasPi cost if it WAS being sold for profit? I dread to think.


We do actually make a profit on each device - but as a not-for-profit company, all those profits get ploughed back into the company and we don't benefit from it personally. The plan is to use profits to fund further R&D, and to subsidise Raspberry Pis for certain needy groups (I'm currently working with a group wanting productivity machines for women in the developing world, for example).
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spamel
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Re: Manufacturer Backlash

Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:13 pm

Cheers Liz, my understanding was one RasPi bought would put another in the hands of a kid in school, but I don't count that as profit.  If i see you zooming around in a Ferrari though, i will class that as a profit made some place!

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Jessie
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Re: Manufacturer Backlash

Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:16 pm

The low end Roku can be had for $50 with a remote/kb thing and the same SOC as the R-Pi.  And it is a fully finished consumer product.  I just don't see any angst here.

If I had to speculate, and this is speculation because I honestly don't know anything.  I would say that the delays are because the pick and place factory had an small issue and rather than getting right to fixing it (and contacting the foundation right away) they put a bigger customer's run on the machines and leasurly took their time fixing that issue.

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grumpyoldgit
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Re: Manufacturer Backlash

Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:26 pm

Well. In a commercial organisation there would be stacks of staff working full time on the introduction of the product. They would have had previous experience of bringing out products so the whole process would have been bedded in previously. They might also not announce the product until it was sitting there in the warehouse in the UK ready for launch. I take the view that the first run of the Pi will be the real beta test. All the wrinkles will get ironed out, documentation tested, capabilities realised. So that by the autumn when the education side proper kicks off, people will have a better idea of what is going on. The fun will be in the next few months!

judderman
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Re: Manufacturer Backlash

Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:36 pm

Hi

There's no angst - it was just a thought that struck me at work today.  Looks like nobody else is too worried, so I'll stop too.

It seems to have wandered off now, but that's the way of threads.  Thanks for your thoughts & reassurance.

Regards, Stewart

nichobb
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Re: Manufacturer Backlash

Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:41 pm

I think there is such a difference in market between the Pi and a traditional PC that no major player would bother and minor players couldn"t impact in evil ways. Also what company would want to be seen to try and bring down a charity?

With PCs pricing, I don"t see the Pi (in current form) having an impact. It can"t run windows (killing majority of business interest) or Mac OS (killing almost the rest), hobby market not significant really, beyond high end stuff. I can see it taking from pvr/media player market if a package sold to do so. It"s also possible that a whole new market could be created.

If PC manufacturers start undercutting the Pi, the foundations aims will be significantly closer.

Prometheus
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Re: Manufacturer Backlash

Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:37 pm

nichobb said:


Also what company would want to be seen to try and bring down a charity?


Well, none, really, but just to play devil's advocate, didn't a couple of particularly big companies get accused of working to undermine the One Laptop Per Child project? (Am I remembering that correctly?)


It"s also possible that a whole new market could be created.


I'd say this could be quite likely - the RPi is already following the path often followed by "Disruptive Innovations". A market that few paid heed to before could quite easily explode out of the initiative.


If PC manufacturers start undercutting the Pi, the foundations aims will be significantly closer.


I would love to see that, and I'm sure many others would, too. Bring it on!

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johnbeetem
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Re: Manufacturer Backlash

Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:22 am

Prometheus said:


nichobb said:


Also what company would want to be seen to try and bring down a charity?


Well, none, really, but just to play devil's advocate, didn't a couple of particularly big companies get accused of working to undermine the One Laptop Per Child project? (Am I remembering that correctly?)


I wouldn't use the term "undermine", but OLPC did catch Intel's attention, particularly its use of the lower-powered AMD CPUs.  Intel's response was the Classmate PC: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C.....PC_project

Also, a well-known software company provided a version of their operating system that would run on OLPC alongside Sugar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O.....ot_systems

Prometheus
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Re: Manufacturer Backlash

Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:24 am

John Beetem said:


Prometheus said:


nichobb said:


Also what company would want to be seen to try and bring down a charity?


Well, none, really, but just to play devil's advocate, didn't a couple of particularly big companies get accused of working to undermine the One Laptop Per Child project? (Am I remembering that correctly?)


I wouldn't use the term "undermine", but OLPC did catch Intel's attention, particularly its use of the lower-powered AMD CPUs.  Intel's response was the Classmate PC: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C.....PC_project

Also, a well-known software company provided a version of their operating system that would run on OLPC alongside Sugar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O.....ot_systems



Thanks - that's what I was thinking of.

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