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B70V
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Is there a possibility of running the new ARM Mac OS on a Pi 4?

Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:52 pm

With the release of the new ARM macs, they are going to be running some sort of ARM version of Mac OS. Does anyone know if this would work and if so does anybody have any plans to get it running on a Pi 4?

thatchunkylad198966
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Re: Is there a possibility of running the new ARM Mac OS on a Pi 4?

Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:55 pm

I guess somebody will try but if they do it or not is another question.
I mean, Mac OS on a x86 machine sucks. I don't think it'll be any better on an RPI4. :lol:

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Re: Is there a possibility of running the new ARM Mac OS on a Pi 4?

Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:59 pm

It would be illegal (not that I'm too hung up on that).

Read your Apple OS license agreement.
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Re: Is there a possibility of running the new ARM Mac OS on a Pi 4?

Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:00 pm

B70V wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:52 pm
With the release of the new ARM macs, they are going to be running some sort of ARM version of Mac OS. Does anyone know if this would work and if so does anybody have any plans to get it running on a Pi 4?


MacOS ARM is using the same code base as iOS (BSD Unix fork) and in 10 years iOS has not been ported to run on Raspberry Pi SBC Hardware.

Even if could get it running would it be legal ??
The information is out there....you just have to let it in.

trejan
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Re: Is there a possibility of running the new ARM Mac OS on a Pi 4?

Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:03 pm

B70V wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:52 pm
Does anyone know if this would work
No. It'll be specifically targeted for their Apple M1 SoC as they have full control over hardware and software. Somebody probably could get the underlying Darwin kernel running on a Pi with a lot of work but the rest of macOS would be difficult to get running.

Heater
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Re: Is there a possibility of running the new ARM Mac OS on a Pi 4?

Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:37 pm

Almost certainly not, ever.

Between whatever secure boot system they have, the totally different graphics hardware, and the many other peripherals of their in-house System on a Chip (SoC) it seems vanishingly unlikely to me.

Apple likes it's walled gardens.
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hippy
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Re: Is there a possibility of running the new ARM Mac OS on a Pi 4?

Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:59 pm

There's always a "possibility". "Can't be done", "won't happen", "is impossible" is sometimes the only motivation someone with the right skills needs to prove it's not so. I remember when Android was impossible, Windows 10 Desktop was impossible, and some would maintain it still is despite people having it running. Not saying it will happen but it possibly could.

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Re: Is there a possibility of running the new ARM Mac OS on a Pi 4?

Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:08 pm

The pedantic answer to the question asked in the title is "yes".

Even zero possibility is a possibility. :)
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Re: Is there a possibility of running the new ARM Mac OS on a Pi 4?

Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:27 pm

hippy wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:59 pm
There's always a "possibility". "Can't be done", "won't happen", "is impossible" is sometimes the only motivation someone with the right skills needs to prove it's not so. I remember when Android was impossible, Windows 10 Desktop was impossible, and some would maintain it still is despite people having it running. Not saying it will happen but it possibly could.
It's like the old joke about a dog walking on his hind legs. You're not surprised that he doesn't do it very well. You're surprised he can do it all.

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Re: Is there a possibility of running the new ARM Mac OS on a Pi 4?

Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:38 pm

B70V wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:52 pm
With the release of the new ARM macs, they are going to be running some sort of ARM version of Mac OS. Does anyone know if this would work and if so does anybody have any plans to get it running on a Pi 4?

The following which is the start up sequence of an iOS device and extremely likely the same on the latest M1 SoC:

Low Level Bootloader (LLB)
Boot
kernel.

Therefore how is this achieved on a Raspberry Pi SBC ??
The information is out there....you just have to let it in.

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Re: Is there a possibility of running the new ARM Mac OS on a Pi 4?

Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:49 am

Till now things like hackintosh was a thing because the hardware used was publicly available such as i7 chips, however with apple switching to soc arm based apple made chips, they will probably have a part of the OS boot dedicating to checking hardware matching apple soc
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Re: Is there a possibility of running the new ARM Mac OS on a Pi 4?

Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:52 am

fruitoftheloom wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:38 pm
B70V wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:52 pm
With the release of the new ARM macs, they are going to be running some sort of ARM version of Mac OS. Does anyone know if this would work and if so does anybody have any plans to get it running on a Pi 4?

The following which is the start up sequence of an iOS device and extremely likely the same on the latest M1 SoC:

Low Level Bootloader (LLB)
Boot
kernel.

Therefore how is this achieved on a Raspberry Pi SBC ??
https://worthdoingbadly.com/xnuqemu/

i'm guessing you would need to fully understand how the kernel is booting, and then write and load drivers for the pi hw

graphics, timers, irq subsystem, everything that doesnt match up with what apple did custom in the M1 chip

then your violating the EULA for darwin/macos, by running it on non-approved hardware, and then forum moderators will begin locking any thread where you try to discuss any further investigations

it will run into a lot of the same problems as hackintosh machines, where it only works on intel chips, because apple never wrote the low-level drivers for amd chips, because they dont sell any hw with amd cpu's

fruitoftheloom
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Re: Is there a possibility of running the new ARM Mac OS on a Pi 4?

Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:25 am

cleverca22 wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:52 am
fruitoftheloom wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:38 pm
B70V wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:52 pm
With the release of the new ARM macs, they are going to be running some sort of ARM version of Mac OS. Does anyone know if this would work and if so does anybody have any plans to get it running on a Pi 4?

The following which is the start up sequence of an iOS device and extremely likely the same on the latest M1 SoC:

Low Level Bootloader (LLB)
Boot
kernel.

Therefore how is this achieved on a Raspberry Pi SBC ??
https://worthdoingbadly.com/xnuqemu/

i'm guessing you would need to fully understand how the kernel is booting, and then write and load drivers for the pi hw

graphics, timers, irq subsystem, everything that doesnt match up with what apple did custom in the M1 chip

then your violating the EULA for darwin/macos, by running it on non-approved hardware, and then forum moderators will begin locking any thread where you try to discuss any further investigations

it will run into a lot of the same problems as hackintosh machines, where it only works on intel chips, because apple never wrote the low-level drivers for amd chips, because they dont sell any hw with amd cpu's

This comes under the heading it is an ARM CPU therefore it will be feasible, which is a very simplistic notion. Apple have had 30 years experience of working with ARM so they should be pretty good at locking down their hardware.
The information is out there....you just have to let it in.

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Re: Is there a possibility of running the new ARM Mac OS on a Pi 4?

Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:01 am

B70V wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:52 pm
With the release of the new ARM macs, they are going to be running some sort of ARM version of Mac OS. Does anyone know if this would work and if so does anybody have any plans to get it running on a Pi 4?
it may or may not.... come back after at least 5 years then we'll know for sure.... ;)
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Re: Is there a possibility of running the new ARM Mac OS on a Pi 4?

Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:19 am

But....why?
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Re: Is there a possibility of running the new ARM Mac OS on a Pi 4?

Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:37 am

jamesh wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:19 am
But....why?

Same as running WoA10, saving lots of $$$$$ to have the same look and feel.
The information is out there....you just have to let it in.

Rudolf
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Re: Is there a possibility of running the new ARM Mac OS on a Pi 4?

Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:16 pm

B70V wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:52 pm
With the release of the new ARM macs, they are going to be running some sort of ARM version of Mac OS. Does anyone know if this would work and if so does anybody have any plans to get it running on a Pi 4?
I think you could, but why, are you longing for Apple flaws showing on a different platform?

Frankly, I prefer to stay at a transparent *NIX ...

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Re: Is there a possibility of running the new ARM Mac OS on a Pi 4?

Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:56 pm

Technicalities aside, if you consider AAPL seems to target $500++ per individual equipment sale, I can't see how they would or could let that happen.
Unless they change their business model, which seems unlikely given their success.
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Re: Is there a possibility of running the new ARM Mac OS on a Pi 4?

Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:10 pm

jamesh wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:19 am
But....why?
Some people seem to be fixated on specific GUIs without realizing that if you can learn to use multiple interfaces, then you have the flexibility of mind to sit down at a strange computer and use it straight off because you have a generalized knowledge, instead of being locked into only one sample from a large set of possibilities.

(Personally, I'm not fond of MACOS, but tastes differ.)

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Re: Is there a possibility of running the new ARM Mac OS on a Pi 4?

Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:11 pm

B70V wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:52 pm
With the release of the new ARM macs, they are going to be running some sort of ARM version of Mac OS. Does anyone know if this would work and if so does anybody have any plans to get it running on a Pi 4?
NO! I expect you won't find code that will run on a RPI, which will work as if that RPI is a Mac, Apple won't allow that, and they have all the means to prevent it!

Mark my words!!!

And yes, I know of previous similar attempt, like running Mac OS on an Atari ST.

This is a different situation! Any such thoughts are just wishful thinking!

If you wonder what Apples M1 (Arm cpu) is like, go watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4k9zoso_0g

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Re: Is there a possibility of running the new ARM Mac OS on a Pi 4?

Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:49 pm

I've emulated an old MacOS on RPi once using QEMU... It was really boring.

If you want that MacOS look & feel, go check out Twister OS. (a modified version of Raspberry Pi OS)
It has a very realistic MacOS theme. (they ported the icons, appearance theme, and sound effects to Xfce4)
Want to run Minecraft Java on your RPi? Easiest way is with Pi-Apps - just click Install.
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Re: Is there a possibility of running the new ARM Mac OS on a Pi 4?

Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:35 pm

2020-11-21 18:33:13 < geist> a can't happen for a bunch of ISA reasons anywya
2020-11-21 18:33:31 < geist> even if you tried the ISA is incompatible, since the M1s are at least v8.1 (with some v8.2 bits)
2020-11-21 18:33:41 < geist> i confirmed some of that the other day by poking around
2020-11-21 18:33:55 < clever> ah, so it may be using some special opcodes the rpi cpu lacks?
2020-11-21 18:33:59 < clever> even in userland
2020-11-21 18:33:59 < geist> *presumably* they're using the new atomic instructions that you get with 8.1 in the kernel
2020-11-21 18:34:13 < geist> yah
2020-11-21 18:34:27 < geist> v8.1 atomics are a big win, so it's generally a good idea to immediately swtich to them
2020-11-21 18:34:39 < geist> i noticed that when compiling for -arch arm64 on mac it defaults to using them
2020-11-21 18:34:53 < geist> so that implies they have basically been using v8.1 for a while

trejan
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Re: Is there a possibility of running the new ARM Mac OS on a Pi 4?

Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:53 pm

cleverca22 wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:35 pm
2020-11-21 18:33:13 < geist> a can't happen for a bunch of ISA reasons anywya
2020-11-21 18:33:31 < geist> even if you tried the ISA is incompatible, since the M1s are at least v8.1 (with some v8.2 bits)
2020-11-21 18:33:41 < geist> i confirmed some of that the other day by poking around
2020-11-21 18:33:55 < clever> ah, so it may be using some special opcodes the rpi cpu lacks?
2020-11-21 18:33:59 < clever> even in userland
2020-11-21 18:33:59 < geist> *presumably* they're using the new atomic instructions that you get with 8.1 in the kernel
2020-11-21 18:34:13 < geist> yah
2020-11-21 18:34:27 < geist> v8.1 atomics are a big win, so it's generally a good idea to immediately swtich to them
2020-11-21 18:34:39 < geist> i noticed that when compiling for -arch arm64 on mac it defaults to using them
2020-11-21 18:34:53 < geist> so that implies they have basically been using v8.1 for a while
Yeah. I expect Apple to be compiling their code to fully utilitise every feature available in their SoC. As I said above, they control everything so it is easy for them. That said, missing instruction support hasn't stopped people before when building a Hackintosh on unsupported CPUs. There was a kernel mod to trap unimplemented SSE3 instructions and emulate them just so you could run OSX on old CPUs. Not sure how well that'd work for atomics though and the performance penalty if it did work would be massive since they'd be used everywhere.

I wonder if they've implemented any custom instructions. Until last year, AFAIK it was forbidden to make custom instructions even if you held an architectural license.

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Re: Is there a possibility of running the new ARM Mac OS on a Pi 4?

Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:47 am

B70V wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:52 pm
With the release of the new ARM macs, they are going to be running some sort of ARM version of Mac OS. Does anyone know if this would work and if so does anybody have any plans to get it running on a Pi 4?
Pi 4? Who knows, maybe on a Pi 4000+ Model B. 😊
Hopefully! In my opinion it would be a too big loss for the Hackintosh community to give in. While the first transition, most of had fun to play around with Darwin...

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