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Re: Microsoft and ARM

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:44 pm
by redkcir
What effect will Microsoft's lock-down of the ARM devices have on the R-Pi?

See this:  http://www.softwarefreedom.org.....-down-ARM/

Re: Microsoft and ARM

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:46 pm
by Bons
I think that the Pi cannot boot the Windows 8 Arm Edition because the BIOS doen not support it, the BIOS (EFI) must support this feature.

Re: Microsoft and ARM

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:59 pm
by adlambert
As far as I can tell that only affects hardware that is made for Windows 8. Raspberry Pi should not be affected.

Re: Microsoft and ARM

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:20 pm
by panik
I think Microsoft (and Apple for that matter) can lock down whatever they want. It"s their hardware.

It"s up to us to decide if we want to buy into it (or not!). Vote with your wallet, it"s the only thing companies understand.

Edit: the same goes for Sony, Nintendo, Google, etcetera

Re: Microsoft and ARM

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:26 pm
by cnxsoft
UEFI exists for ARMv6. The issue is that Windows 8 will probably only work on Cortex processor (ARMv7) whereas Broadcom BCM2835 is an ARM11 core based on ARMv6 architecture. It is also unlikely Windows 8 works on 256 MB RAM.

Re: Microsoft and ARM

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:32 pm
by jamesh
panik said:


I think Microsoft (and Apple for that matter) can lock down whatever they want. It"s their hardware.

It"s up to us to decide if we want to buy into it (or not!). Vote with your wallet, it"s the only thing companies understand.

Edit: the same goes for Sony, Nintendo, Google, etcetera


Except, in both cases, it isn't their hardware. You buy it, it's your hardware. You don't licence hardware like your software.

This is a means for Microsoft to lock people in to Microsoft software. It shoud be (and probably is ) illegal. They'll still do it though.

Won't affect Raspi, as its only for machines that come with Win8 installed.

Re: Microsoft and ARM

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:12 pm
by panik
JamesH said:

Except, in both cases, it isn't their hardware. You buy it, it's your hardware. You don't licence hardware like your software.
With "their hardware", I mean "They're allowed to sell the hardware the way they invented it". After you buy it, it's your hardware of course. But if you don't like the way they invented it, maybe you shouldn't have bought it in the first place.


This is a means for Microsoft to lock people in to Microsoft software. It shoud be (and probably is ) illegal. They'll still do it though.


Don't get me wrong, I share your concerns. It's easy for me say. I've been using Linux as my main computer for over 7 years now, and never looked back.

Also, is there a way to maybe merge to two threads about this subject?

Re: Microsoft and ARM

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:13 pm
by Prometheus
panik said:


JamesH said:


Except, in both cases, it isn't their hardware. You buy it, it's your hardware. You don't licence hardware like your software.


With "their hardware", I mean "They're allowed to sell the hardware the way they invented it". After you buy it, it's your hardware of course. But if you don't like the way they invented it, maybe you shouldn't have bought it in the first place.


I get your meaning, but I'm pretty sure that Microsoft is just a software vendor, not a hardware designer, though. (Unlike Apple, who actually does design their own hardware.)

Re: Microsoft and ARM

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:22 pm
by panik
True, if hardware vendors want to distribute their hardware with Windows 8, they'll have to dance the Microsoft dance. That's where I'm getting concerned as well. Microsoft's reputation in these matters is not spotless.

Still, I say: If you don't like it, don't buy it.

Re: Microsoft and ARM

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:31 pm
by stuporhero
I've not read enough on this so far but I can't comment. This does however sound just like what Microsoft did with netbooks (classify it based on their rules as opposed to the manufacturers) so when(if) we all switch to ARM they have the entire market. x64 will always exist, but potentially to a lesser extent.

Thankfully in this day and age ARM won't necessarily go hand in hand with Windows. (OEMs hopefully won't suffer a repeat on MS's "Supply anything else and pay a fortune for a Windows licence" attack). That would be the scare point for me, and frankly none of this applies to RasPi, at least for now (look at what MS did to OLPC for details)

Re: Microsoft and ARM

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:50 pm
by johnbeetem
FYI, here's more information on the Microsoft ARM lockdown:

Glyn Moody: http://blogs.computerworlduk.c...../index.htm

Slashdot: http://linux.slashdot.org/stor.....nux-on-arm

Free Software Foundation: http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/s...../statement

Microsoft doesn't make hardware except Xbox, Kinect, keyboards, and mice.  At one time they made Zune and Kin, but I think they're both long gone.  Did I miss any?  So IMO/IANAL they have absolutely no business telling anyone how to use hardware made by third parties.

Re: Microsoft and ARM

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:04 pm
by Prometheus
^ I think you got them all (and I must admit, I don't even know what on Earth "Kin" is/was ).

I could have sworn that Logitech were the actual manufacturer of their keyboards and mice, but I honestly forget where I picked that up, so I'm possibly wrong.

Re: Microsoft and ARM

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:29 pm
by panik
John Beetem said:


So IMO/IANAL they have absolutely no business telling anyone how to use hardware made by third parties.


And you're absolutely right. As I understand it, Microsoft wants these third parties to effectively(!) make it impossible to run any other OS on hardware that was shipped with Windows 8. Under false pretense or not, let's not go there.

Microsoft is indeed a software company, and this is where it bites them in the ass: lack of control over hardware.

Microsoft and these third parties can do whatever the hell they want. I will simply not buy that hardware. But I don't like what's going on, I hope that's clear. My previous posts aren't. (as a non-native English speaker I usually struggle getting a point across).

Thanks for these links, by the way. I hope Microsoft can clear up the confusion (end of the article on computerworlduk).

Edit: Signed the fsf petition

Re: Microsoft and ARM

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:27 pm
by Wooloomooloo
Well, that's that. They can take their M$-only hardware and stick it where the sun don't shine for all I care - I'll never, EVER, buy computing hardware (ARM or otherwise) that is purposefully crippled to only run M$ stuff. If they can't grasp that in this day and age an OS is not something one can sell, it's their problem, not mine. Good luck to them pulling this one off - I'll just go get my popcorn...

Re: Microsoft and ARM

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:54 pm
by Benedict White
Signed the petition.

I didn't think Microsoft could do anything to wind me up anymore...

What I don't get though is who the market for these Arm devices is going to be. A friend of mine got a good deal on an Archos 101 fro £120. It runs Andriod and runs really well.

I can't see such a device running Windows as it is too cheap. This leads to the question; where will Microsoft's market be? At the high end? why would you burn your hardware running bloat? Also, the Windows OS for phones has gone from icons too small to be useful to hideously large and ugly. I can't see Windows tablets getting the market share, except in the market we sell them into where they won't care about the lockout. That said, that is not in the consumer market.

Re: Microsoft and ARM

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:11 pm
by Jongoleur
Its just Microsoft being Microsoft; Extend, Embrace, Embugger...  All they want to do is pretend that it'll make the platform more "secure" and prevent Win 8 from being given the elbow by disenchanted users. Thing is, if manufacturers want to put Win 8 on their ARM powered product, they'll have to sign the lockdown clause.  That'll mean any ARM based product thats been supplied with Win8 will be a lost cause, until the keys are broken on probably a product by product basis, which may or may not happen.

Anyhow, where will ARM most probably be found?  Tablets and Phones in the main.  Perhaps Win 8 on a tablet will be the kiss of death, I don't know.  Its not a format that fills me with enthusiasm.  As for Win 8 based "Smart" phones, well if you have to swipe, pinch and prod the screen to make a call, then its not a phone in MY book!

In the end, the question is, would you want an operating system that locked down the hardware and restricted the possibilities on a Raspberry Pi.

I think the answer is self-evident.

Re: Microsoft and ARM

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:37 am
by digital_addict
For what it's worth. I suspect that Micro$ is suffering a panic attack.

With the exception of the Xbox and a dubious relationship with Nokia, What else have they got to offer? They may have 90% of the domestic desktop environments, and maybe 20-40% of the commercial server market, but, these markets are fairly stagnant at the moment, so, how do they grow their business? One answer could be to lock down every motherboard produced by the oem's. This would not only affect Arm but Linux too. So, it's probably scaremongering, or bully boy tactics, to keep the name in the media. Consider the anti trust lawsuits that would be issued, not even the wealth of Micro$ could handle that, (no US or EU and probably a few other markets) If Micro$ does not diversify, and quickly, then like a number of other large operations it will go bust.

Re: Microsoft and ARM

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:40 am
by Benedict White
digital_addict said:


For what it's worth. I suspect that Micro$ is suffering a panic attack.

With the exception of the Xbox and a dubious relationship with Nokia, What else have they got to offer? They may have 90% of the domestic desktop environments, and maybe 20-40% of the commercial server market, but, these markets are fairly stagnant at the moment, so, how do they grow their business? One answer could be to lock down every motherboard produced by the oem's. This would not only affect Arm but Linux too. So, it's probably scaremongering, or bully boy tactics, to keep the name in the media. Consider the anti trust lawsuits that would be issued, not even the wealth of Micro$ could handle that, (no US or EU and probably a few other markets) If Micro$ does not diversify, and quickly, then like a number of other large operations it will go bust.


I can't see Microsoft going bust, but I can see it failing to expand or indeed contracting.

That said, not any time soon.

Re: Microsoft and ARM

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:24 am
by scologic
Personally i'm beyond breaking point with Microsoft on software. I'd love to move over to Apple or Linux apart from no decent accounts software and the fact i've invested in thousands on Adobe Windows...

I think Linux OS will have it's day as it's getting there bit by bit but I think Google Android and Chromium are just Google advertising engines and the main Linux Desktop will eventually win.

Whilst I love Linux and it's stability I find android a very poor subsitiute especially when i know that every android device has a perfectly good Linux Kernel under the bonnet.

Windows 8 really does not excite me at all.

I would love Apple to launch OSX into the intel platform so we could all buy a £400 quid i3 laptop from Asus or Acer and install a really nice OS, but as Apple has started to become expensive on kit again i doubt we'll ever see it.

My 2p

Re: Microsoft and ARM

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:39 am
by Benedict White
scologic said:


Personally i'm beyond breaking point with Microsoft on software. I'd love to move over to Apple or Linux apart from no decent accounts software and the fact i've invested in thousands on Adobe Windows...


That is frequently the way... people stay where they are because they have been there for a lot of money...

As for accounts software a quick google reveals:

http://www.gnucash.org/

http://www.aaxnet.com/design/l.....xacct.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C.....g_software

No idea if any of them is any good though.


I think Linux OS will have it's day as it's getting there bit by bit but I think Google Android and Chromium are just Google advertising engines and the main Linux Desktop will eventually win.


Well, for mobile devices Android seems to work well. That said it would be good to see just Linux on a smart phone.


Whilst I love Linux and it's stability I find android a very poor subsitiute especially when i know that every android device has a perfectly good Linux Kernel under the bonnet.

Windows 8 really does not excite me at all.

I would love Apple to launch OSX into the intel platform so we could all buy a £400 quid i3 laptop from Asus or Acer and install a really nice OS, but as Apple has started to become expensive on kit again i doubt we'll ever see it.


Apple already runs in Intel, they just don't like you installing their software on someone else's hardware. In many ways Apple has a more monopolistic attitude than Microsoft, in my view.

Re: Microsoft and ARM

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:39 pm
by Prometheus
Benedict White said:


In many ways Apple has a more monopolistic attitude than Microsoft, in my view.


People say that an awful lot, but Apple make a hell of a lot of stuff open source, including the core parts of their OSes.

I mean, if you use CUPS for printing, you're using something they made and contributed, for example.

Re: Microsoft and ARM

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:58 pm
by digital_addict
scologic said:



I would love Apple to launch OSX into the intel platform so we could all buy a £400 quid i3 laptop from Asus or Acer and install a really nice OS, but as Apple has started to become expensive on kit again i doubt we'll ever see it.

You could look at hackintosh.com  http://www.hackintosh.com


Re: Microsoft and ARM

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:34 am
by Benedict White
Prometheus said:


Benedict White said:


In many ways Apple has a more monopolistic attitude than Microsoft, in my view.


People say that an awful lot, but Apple make a hell of a lot of stuff open source, including the core parts of their OSes.

I mean, if you use CUPS for printing, you're using something they made and contributed, for example.


No. See here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CUPS

Apple acquired CUPs when it was GPL.

Re: Microsoft and ARM

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:08 am
by Prometheus
My mistake about CUPS - thanks muchly for the correction.

The rest of my point still stands, however. They seem to contribute to rather a lot, and a lot of people misapply the word "monopoly" when speaking about them.

Re: Microsoft and ARM

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:19 am
by tntexplosivesltd
I think you'll find that those are all libraries licenced under OSS licences that someone has ported to Mac. They were made for the *nix platform first, by other people. Apple still is incredibly monopolistic.