hippy
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Re: "Nothing ever works"

Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:27 pm

ejolson wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:05 pm
With a teaching language changes are made in arbitrary ways that break reverse compatibility to obtain a syntax which is better for teaching.
But in most cases there's nothing wrong with the code as such. When it works it works just great. It's usually the build or install which fails. That's why I'm very reluctant to put the blame on developers of that code, or the programming language they use.

Heater
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Re: "Nothing ever works"

Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:43 am

Hippy,

Can I summarize your problem with the following hypothetical scenario :

1) I write a program, it works for me, I put it up on github or publish it as Free and Open Source Software some how.

2) You download my code and try to build and run it.

3) It does not work for you for some reason.

That's shitty for you. What can we do about it?

a) You report a bug to me. If I know how I fix it. If I have time. If I can be bothered. Perhaps I don't have a system exactly like yours to test on.

b) You figure out what's wrong, fix it and push the changes to me. I may or may not accept them to my code. If I like the change, if I have time, if I can be bothered...

c) You figure out what's wrong, fix it and publish your own version. A fork.

d) You start complaining that my software never works and is "not fit for purpose" and so on. You expect someone, somewhere, somehow to fix it.

Now, if we replace "I" with all Free and Open Source Software developers and "You" with all users of such software this is no longer hypothetical, it's the state of the world.

I don't know what the solution is but I take a rather different view of the situation. I have been constantly amazed, since I discovered Linux a Free and Open Source Software in 1997, that there such a vast amount of useful software that does work. From the kernel to the OS to everything that runs on it. Amazed that it's all available for anyone to use and do what they like with. Amazed that it is all free (As well as Free). Amazed that much of it works on so many different platforms, from Intel, ARM, MIPS, Spark, Motorola, RISC V all the way up to IBM mainframes. That is just fantastic. Not something we would ever have imagined happening back in the day.

Yes it's frustrating when things don't work as a easily as one might like. I celebrate the things that do. And I'm very grateful to all the hundreds of thousands of people who put so much work in to make it possible.

hippy
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Re: "Nothing ever works"

Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:59 am

Heater wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:43 am
d) You start complaining that my software never works and is "not fit for purpose" and so on.
No that's not what I'm doing. I am not blaming the developer for the problems which arise. In fact I keep pointing out that I am not doing that.

Rubbish code is one thing. But I am talking about getting perfectly good and fit for purpose code running for me, or others.

I'm perfectly happy for developers to say 'download this, run make'. That indeed should work, would be expected to work. It is not usually a problem with the developer's code, nor necessarily the developer's fault, when it doesn't.
Heater wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:43 am
You expect someone, somewhere, somehow to fix it.
That would be nice, but all I was wondering is why it is like this, and how people live with such a situation without giving up in frustration.

If we could get to the bottom of it we have a hope of fixing it, but until we can identify what the underlying fundamental problem is, we cannot hope to resolve it.
Heater wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:43 am
Yes it's frustrating when things don't work as a easily as one might like
Indeed. And it seems I am far from alone in experiencing such frustration.

That's the way it is. I was simply wondering why that is, why it seems to particularly afflict the Linux ecosystem, how people live with that.

ShiftPlusOne
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Re: "Nothing ever works"

Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:35 pm

The short version is it's because making a systems that's powerful, efficient, flexible, portable, stable and simple is hard.

To the extent that it affects linux systems, I'd say it's because you can't guess what setup the user has. If everyone was running Debian stable with the same setup, things would be simpler. But, you can't test every single combination of hardware, distros, library versions and so on. No matter what you do, there's going to be somebody who can't replicate it, no matter how easy you make it. Also, people who develop software usually don't know how to integrate is with the operating system they're targeting. You have snaps, flatpaks and appimages trying to solve that problem, but they're introducing other problems in the process.

Another thing that frustrates me is when people blame Linux for being too difficult, when what they're trying to do is not even possible on their OS of choice.

I get that it takes time to learn new things. But sometimes, it seems to me that some people (a very small percentage) have very unreasonable expectations. Everything is slowly improving and becoming simpler, but there's always going to be a gap between what people want to do and how much effort or money they're willing to put in.

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Re: "Nothing ever works"

Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:48 pm

Dependencies are always an issue, but they are also a necessity to avoid every single application shipping with statically built versions of those dependencies so that they can be certain that the library is the version they want. Windows apps takes that latter approach most of the time in either statically building libraries or shipping their own copies, except for the big frameworks such as .NET.
omxplayer statically builds ffmpeg because of the mess that libav and ffmpeg were a few years back, and their APIs do change regularly, causing breakages.

It's one of the reasons we use Debian stable as the base for Raspbian - they put shed loads of effort into testing the combination of packages that they ship to ensure they do work, but that means they can only do a major release every couple of years.

Follow that up, and ideally all developers would create packages with complete dependency lists for their applications, but reality is that then you have to create several lots of packages for the different package managers. (ShiftPlusOne has pointed out that Python tends to shun package managers anyway). And which architectures do they build for? And what if they built against a later library than you have installed? And ... ? And ... ?

Simple answer is not to be a developer!
Software Engineer at Raspberry Pi Trading. Views expressed are still personal views.
I'm not interested in doing contracts for bespoke functionality - please don't ask.

Heater
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Re: "Nothing ever works"

Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:16 pm

hippy,

My take on it is that a typical Linux distro is built from hundreds/thousands of pieces of software. All those components are created, developed and maintained by a project team that is usually nothing to do with the distro.

Now, all those components are being constantly developed and things break, interfaces/APIs change, features get deprecated/removed, etc, etc.

To add to this turmoil compilers, interpreters and build tools develop over time. See the chaos in the transition from Python 2 to Python 3 for example.

Looking at all that churn it's amazing one ever manages to build a working system out of it that remains working for any length of time. When someone throws their, perfectly good and working, code out into the world they have no idea where and on what people are going to try and build/run it.

This of course is where the idea of Linux distributions comes from. Very early on people like Slackware, Debian and RedHat saw this problem and created solutions. They invented packages and packages managers. They took on the task of build and maintaining all those packages, verifying they all work together etc, etc.

Great idea, but it has issues:

1) There are dozens of such package systems now. It's chaos.

2) One tends to end up using somewhat old versions of software. Which is good for stability but those who crave the latest shiny things don't like it.

So today we have more solutions coming. Like the flatpaks and snaps mentioned above, or Docker containers. Which all sound like a giant step backwards to me. To a Windows like world where every application is shipped with exactly the libs it needs to run, frozen in time. And it adds yet another layer of complexity.

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topguy
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Re: "Nothing ever works"

Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:44 pm

Code: Select all

A: why it seems to particularly afflict the Linux ecosystem,
B: how people live with that.
A:
Mostly because users of OSX and Windows never ( almost never ) need to download source to install a program, programs always have an installable binary. If you never need to do that, then moving to Linux can be a new and confusing experience for most.

B:
We live, and learn.. to live is to learn..
- We learn how to search for specific header files on your filesystem.
- We learn to modify compiler flags so correct includepaths and linkerpaths are used.
- We learn to use packages.debian.org to search for which package has the missing file.
- We learn how to install that package.
- We learn how to uninstall that package when the version in Debian is too old and you have to download this dependency as source too.
- We learn to make smaller modification to C++ code so that it compiles on a newer GCC version that is slightly more pedantic than the GCC developer used.
- We learn to read "the small print" on installation instruction.
- We learn the "basics" of Make and CMake and how Automake is supposed to work.
- And we certainly learn how to Google and read a lot of StackExchange posts.
- We learn to recognize situations where a solution is outside our capabilities and maybe find a different solution or maybe a different project to work on.
- We learn that learning all this will take time, and maybe asking for help/hints early is a good idea for not wasting time on the "wrong" solution.

You may feel like there is one (or just afew) underlying keys problems that needs solving, but its many.
One solution could be to give a single team of developers the task to make a special Linux distro that behaves more like OSX and Windows... and no one really wants that :-D

hippy
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Re: "Nothing ever works"

Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:29 pm

Heater wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:16 pm
It's chaos.
topguy wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:44 pm
You may feel like there is one (or just afew) underlying keys problems that needs solving, but its many.
I think that probably sums it up for me too :lol:

At the end of the day I suppose I just have to get used to the fact that it's harder than I have found it with other platforms if I'm going to stick with it.

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r3d4
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Re: "Nothing ever works"

Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:48 am

Im reminded of
The Daemon, the GNU and the Penguin - A History of Free and Open Source(TOC)

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?stor ... 7184603969
The Daemon, the GNU and the Penguin:Introduction wrote:My aim is to show how the advent of the computer and the Internet have given rise to the expansion of the academic/scholarly notions of sharing, and how this in turn has brought us free and open software, which will bring about a major change in the way we do business.
www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20051031235811490
Chapter 20. Proliferating Penguins - Part I wrote: From the early 1980s on, the big gripe about Unix was that it had split and resplit, that there were just too many variants.
The fact that they had a common base was irrelevant to the critics -- and many (if not most) of those critics were selling VMS or MVS or DOS or...
/wanders of in to the distance manically chanting *developers developers developers*
:)

... apparently forum search works now !!
viewtopic.php?f=63&t=225738#p1385986
:lol:

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bensimmo
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Re: "Nothing ever works"

Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:29 pm

topguy wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:44 pm
.. ..
One solution could be to give a single team of developers the task to make a special Linux distro that behaves more like OSX and Windows... and no one really wants that :-D
Not true, people do want that. Proven by Android. A Linux system we just download a program and it works, oddly it's pretty much taken over the world as the OS of choice for users.
While 'Linux Distros' are a small minority in the corner of users.

You may not want it and traditionalist may not want it.
Plenty of people would like it though.

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r3d4
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Re: "Nothing ever works"

Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:50 pm

ShiftPlusOne wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:35 pm
there's always going to be a gap between what people want to do and how much effort or money they're willing to put in.
IMHO there is a good analogy
between the trials racing video game play > eg: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q7b2viq7lQ 'The Many Fails Of Trials 2'

and "development"
aka finding a way a round code / dependencies and environment


* i have no audio on my desktop (don't worry its not currently running RPD !) :lol: because "Nothing ever works"
... so i hope there is nothing terrible in the sound track of that clip :roll:

hippy
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Re: "Nothing ever works"

Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:04 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:29 pm
topguy wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:44 pm
.. ..
One solution could be to give a single team of developers the task to make a special Linux distro that behaves more like OSX and Windows... and no one really wants that :-D
Not true, people do want that. Proven by Android.
And proven I think by the huge number of people who got overly excited after they were misled into believing the full Windows 10 Desktop OS was coming to the Pi.

Some people really do want that, if not actual Windows or OSX, something which is like it, works like it, has one way of doing things, one way which is pretty much guaranteed to work, which everyone complies with or is virtually forced to comply with.

I am inclined to believe, based on my experience, the advantages of that outweigh the disadvantages.

I would say the advantages are also demonstrable with Linux, where git is git and using apt-get is pretty plain sailing most times for installing things. But even apt-get is undermined by having apt as well and even dpkg, and then synapsis et al on top, Python and every other programming language framework inventing their own, often multiple, ways of installing things.

The more one moves away from 'one way of doing things' the more likely things will go wrong and I guess that's what I have experienced and suffered. It requires people to become experts in multiple things they have no interest in being experts of and frustrates them in getting on and doing what they are interested in.

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r3d4
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Re: "Nothing ever works"

Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:18 pm

hippy wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:04 pm
The more one moves away from 'one way of doing things' the more likely things will go wrong
Like one way to store/read a file resource ?
eg : wikipedia.org/wiki/NTFS#Alternate_data_streams_(ADS)
Alternate data streams allow more than one data stream to be associated with a filename

hippy
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Re: "Nothing ever works"

Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:42 pm

r3d4 wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:18 pm
hippy wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:04 pm
The more one moves away from 'one way of doing things' the more likely things will go wrong
Like one way to store/read a file resource ?
eg : wikipedia.org/wiki/NTFS#Alternate_data_streams_(ADS)
Alternate data streams allow more than one data stream to be associated with a filename
That sounds like a complete nightmare but I doubt many people have ever used those and consequently run into problems with them

While it's entirely possible to go off on one's own on Windows and do things in ways people won't be expecting it's rare that is done; primary developers and secondary developers can be more certain of their both being on the same common ground.

For example everyone gets pretty much tied into using Visual Studio to have that common ground. Some might not like that but it does have its advantages; primary developers know secondary developers can use what they develop and secondary developers know what primary developers produce can be used by them, and in the majority of cases that does work out well.

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Re: "Nothing ever works"

Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:39 pm

Not true, people do want that. Proven by Android. A Linux system we just download a program and it works, oddly it's pretty much taken over the world as the OS of choice for users.
While 'Linux Distros' are a small minority in the corner of users.
But "Linux Distros" like Raspbian are what I consider to be the topic here, you may disagree..
While Android has a Linux kernel the rest is its own beast and has not much relevance to this discussion (IMNSHO). You would not even install Android on a device you would use to develop for Android, the ADK only has Windows/Mac/Linux installs afaik.

And the issues that caused problems to Hippy are software development issues, if you just want to download and install some software from the standard package-repositories for your distro, that works in many cases even better than on Windows.

Only with the introduction of an App store in Windows 8 (?) did you get a central place to find your software. Before that ( and still ) you have to find the correct web-page to download something from and then know what to do with the different filetypes you got: .exe / .msi / .rar / .zip / .7z

Heater
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Re: "Nothing ever works"

Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:12 pm

I think I found the solution for those for whom "nothing ever works"

They can use a operating systems on which everything works all the time. I'm told Apple's OS X and iOS, Microsoft's Windows and Google' s Android and Chrome OS are examples of such systems. Although I don't have much experience of such things.

Meanwhile, those who are curious, want to learn how such systems are put together, want to build their own weird creations, want to use little known platforms or develop their own, want to join with others in such explorations, want to compute on a tight budget, and so on can use Linux and the ocean of Free and Open Source software available today.

There is something for everybody. Everyone is happy.

Mind you, I think it's a myth that everything works all the time on those other systems. My experience is otherwise. But that is another story....

hippy
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Re: "Nothing ever works"

Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:31 pm

topguy wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:39 pm
And the issues that caused problems to Hippy are software development issues, if you just want to download and install some software from the standard package-repositories for your distro, that works in many cases even better than on Windows.
That's true. Whether downloading and running setup.exe, installing a .apk, or running apt-get that's pretty solid, mostly.

It's the "here's some source, take it and build it yourself" where the issue arises. Even with Linux that's likely to be gcc source as much as Visual Studio source for Windows or Eclipse/Android Studio source for Android, so should equally just work.

It's something beyond that, libraries, dependencies, prerequisites, configuration which seems to throw a spanner in the works, compounded by not always being able to tell what's wrong, not easily knowing how to resolve it. When provider, taker and no one else has any idea, or no one is willing to help; that can become a dead end or a struggle to figure it out one self.

Platform culture does play a part here because, for Linux, it often is "here's the source, build it yourself", where, for other platforms, it's "here's the installable, and the source is over there if you want to build it yourself". For Linux one is often forced into building it yourself when you only ever wanted the installable.

That was the case for Visual Source Code which I wanted to use on a Pi. I couldn't get that built, nor could others who tried. The problem went away when someone figured it out and provided an apt-get installable. I never wanted to have to build it in the first place, it was in having to and that failing where the frustrations arose.

Actually that's probably been the case for most things I do. That to progress I am forced into having to do something I never wanted to do and when that fails I'm brought to a juddering standstill.

And that seems to happen a lot.

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Re: "Nothing ever works"

Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:45 pm

Though with visual studio code, it was never written to work on the Pi and its OS and chipset, it was not a target.
Somebody fixed that and made it a target and so it is now working.

Various people write .deb files as our installers, unfortunately they often don't work on the Pi.
It can't emulate the x86 code they have been put together for.
Is that a Linux/debian problem and should they fix it so code always works on both if using .deb ?

I guess Microsoft is trying to circumvent that problem with it setup for x86/Arm compatibility with windows (no idea if they have got there yet, other than lack of power from the arm chips it's using)

Android does amazingly well there for Arm/x86, there are very few program (given there are loads in the Google Store) it doesn't seem to care if I use my tablet with x86 or Arm as the chip.

Anyway...

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Re: "Nothing ever works"

Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:01 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:45 pm
Though with visual studio code, it was never written to work on the Pi and its OS and chipset, it was not a target.
Don't confuse Visual Studio Code with Visual Studio or being intended to be X86 or Windows only; it is a very different thing despite the confusingly similar names -

https://code.visualstudio.com
https://github.com/Microsoft/vscode

It's basically a Javascript coded cross-platform editor-come-IDE, intended to be used with node.js, and was targeted to work on anything which supports that, including the Pi.
Last edited by hippy on Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Heater
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Re: "Nothing ever works"

Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:04 pm

Interesting,

Electron started out as the base on which Github built it's Atom editor. Electron is built on node.js (Which uses Googles's V8 Javascript engine) and Google's HTML rending engine so a to leaverage it's cross-platform capability. V8 runs on x86 Windows, Mac and Linux. Not to mention ARM based phones and tabs.

Electron was then split out into it's own project which Microsoft subsequently used to build VS code on top of. For the same cross-platform support reasons.

Given this giant tower of wibbly-wobbly dependencies I'm not surprised it took so long to get VS Code running on the Pi. A platform none of it's creators had in mind. Although the guys at resin.io have had VS Code running on the Pi for a year or two now.

Now, what happens to the Atom editor now that MS has bought GitHub? I guess it's dead

Android apps are written in Java. So they can run on any CPU that has an Android Java bytecode engine.

hippy
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Re: "Nothing ever works"

Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:07 pm

Heater wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:04 pm
Now, what happens to the Atom editor now that MS has bought GitHub? I guess it's dead
No idea. Perhaps start another thread rather than hijacking this one.

Heater
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Re: "Nothing ever works"

Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:49 pm

I don't mean to hijack anything.

My comment about Atom was just an aside in this discussion about why "nothing ever works".

To reiterate, I'm still amazed at, and very grateful for, the huge amount of Free and Open Source software, from all kind of places, that does work on all kind of obscure platforms. Including the Raspberry Pi. Even if it does sometimes take a bit of work. Or even if it sometimes takes some time for people smarter than me to make it work.

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Re: "Nothing ever works"

Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:13 pm

hippy wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:01 pm
bensimmo wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:45 pm
Though with visual studio code, it was never written to work on the Pi and its OS and chipset, it was not a target.
Don't confuse Visual Studio Code with Visual Studio or being intended to be X86 or Windows only; it is a very different thing despite the confusingly similar names -

https://code.visualstudio.com
https://github.com/Microsoft/vscode

It's basically a Javascript coded cross-platform editor-come-IDE, intended to be used with node.js, and was targeted to work on anything which supports that, including the Pi.
I know what it is, I use it.
It didn't work, which means nobody thought of making it work on the Pi as it came. It was not the target, so not tested on it. Support had to be added, beacuse, well, nothing ever works.. until somebody makes it work.
It took somebody to make it work on another platform/setup.
It does now.
Of course that could probably easily break.

And that is with something that is suppose to be cross-platform.

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Re: "Nothing ever works"

Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:21 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:13 pm
It didn't work, which means nobody thought of making it work on the Pi as it came. It was not the target, so not tested on it. Support had to be added, beacuse, well, nothing ever works.. until somebody makes it work.
As has been noted in forum threads on 64-bit Pi operating systems, almost all Linux application development is done on and targets the 64-bit AMD64 x86 architecture. As a result, there are two obstacles when compiling software for the Pi:

1. The Pi uses the ARM instruction set and architecture.

2. The Pi runs in 32-bit mode.

Since both architectures are thankfully little endian, the 32-bit versus 64-bit difference turns out to be more significant than ARM versus x86. Still, as demonstrated by the fact that most AMD64 Debian packages are available for Raspbian, even these differences do not pose many problems.

The present situation is definitely easier than compiling software developed under SunOS to run on IBM AIX or SGI IRIX (or the other way around). Even that wasn't so hard (as long as IRIS GL wasn't involved) after a little practice.

hippy
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Re: "Nothing ever works"

Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:47 pm

bensimmo wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:13 pm
Support had to be added, beacuse, well, nothing ever works.. until somebody makes it work.
It took somebody to make it work on another platform/setup.
But I see no evidence that anything had to be added to the code to make it work, that it would never have worked without something being added. It appears to me it was just knowing the correct incantations to get what was provided to work.

And that is my point; between having perfectly good and functional code, which should just work, there's often a huge struggle to actually get it to work.

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