jamesh
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Definition of ironic

Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:41 pm

Google stops the Raspberry Pi Foundation from using the entirely generic word Pixel for their desktop.

Google's latest version of Android is called Pie.
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hippy
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Re: Definition of ironic

Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:46 pm

Maybe "Pixele" would have been more acceptable :idea:

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Paeryn
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Re: Definition of ironic

Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:33 pm

How long before there are posts asking how to run pie on a pi?
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davidcoton
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Re: Definition of ironic

Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:54 pm

Time to trade, Pixel for Pie?

Or sue Google til the raspberry pips squeak.
"Thanks for saving my life." See https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1327656#p1327656
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Re: Definition of ironic

Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:57 pm

davidcoton wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:54 pm
Time to trade, Pixel for Pie?

Or sue Google til the raspberry pips squeak.
Completly hypothetically speaking, a big company could easily afford to sue a charity or their subsidiraries. Said charity would probably want to do something useful with that money instead.

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davidcoton
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Re: Definition of ironic

Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:20 pm

You didn't hear the irony in my post? (Sorry it should have had a :lol: or a :rofl:)
"Thanks for saving my life." See https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1327656#p1327656
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Imperf3kt
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Re: Definition of ironic

Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:25 pm

Ah, see, but they added an 'e', so it doesn't encroach on your trademark in the same way yours did on theirs.
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Re: Definition of ironic

Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:09 pm

ShiftPlusOne wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:57 pm
davidcoton wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:54 pm
Time to trade, Pixel for Pie?

Or sue Google til the raspberry pips squeak.
Completly hypothetically speaking, a big company could easily afford to sue a charity or their subsidiraries. Said charity would probably want to do something useful with that money instead.
Another example of 'Might = Right'. :(

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Re: Definition of ironic

Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:34 am

Paeryn wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:33 pm
How long before there are posts asking how to run pie on a pi?
Many years ago there was a joke running around that the week after WinNT came out, there was a job ad in a newspaper looking for someone with threes of experience with WinNT.

So...yeah... Probably before anyone has a phone actually using it.

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Re: Definition of ironic

Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:39 am

ShiftPlusOne wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:57 pm
davidcoton wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:54 pm
Time to trade, Pixel for Pie?

Or sue Google til the raspberry pips squeak.
Completly hypothetically speaking, a big company could easily afford to sue a charity or their subsidiraries. Said charity would probably want to do something useful with that money instead.
All true... The way around that is to seriously embarrass the large company in public. Get some major media company to run a story on it about how Gigantic Co. stopped a reasonable usage by Small Charity, Ltd and then turned around and encroached on Small Charity, Ltd.

Perhaps if The Register picked up the story, then the BBC might pick it up--or vice versa--and the word will spread... Does Rory Cellan-Jones still like to do Raspberry Pi stories? Perhaps someone might mention this to him....

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Re: Definition of ironic

Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:16 am

Stop google from claiming common words. This was just the beginning. If they'd succeed, they will claim even more generic words, just like "generic".
I dare to assume, google will not kill the raspberry foundation. Screwing up property rights of common property with an educational foundation as a most in common property will cause a shitstorm of epic scale. A shistorm of common sense. Google won't like that, bad publicity.

PS.: Ridiculous. Google sadly is in line with others even claiming nature... stop them from stealing our common goods.

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bensimmo
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Re: Definition of ironic

Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:38 am

There would also be some irony in a company suing a charity they 'donated' over half a million pounds to.



Seems they are using a cherry pie, not a raspberry one?

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Burngate
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Re: Definition of ironic

Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:15 am

It does seem odd that Google would want to strangle the charity to which they've given more than half a million quid
https://www.raspberrypi.org/about/supporters/

Sorry, bensimmo, missed your post. The internet here in the south is about an hour behind Yorkshire.
Last edited by Burngate on Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Definition of ironic

Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:24 am

bensimmo wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:38 am
Seems they are using a cherry pie, not a raspberry one?
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jamesh
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Re: Definition of ironic

Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:27 am

just to be clear there's no strangling going on here, nobody sung anybody else, I just thought it ironic that when they're stopping us using a common name and then copy ours.
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bensimmo
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Re: Definition of ironic

Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:52 am

Has Pi got a trademark for Pie as an operating systems blah blah.
Google do actually have an EU trademark for pixel as and operating system blah dear blah.
(I don't know own if they ever were given pixel as a trademark for a mobile phone)

It is a shame and I do agree with the irony.
But that 'e' after makes all the difference.

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Burngate
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Re: Definition of ironic

Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:08 am

With >85k left hands and a similar number of right hands, it would be surprising if they all knew what the rest were doing.

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Re: Definition of ironic

Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:13 am

wolf.z wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:16 am
Stop google from claiming common words.
If that were not allowed it would have to apply to everyone and that would not allow Raspberry Pi to be a trademark.

The Foundation has had its moments when it comes to chasing down alleged infringement. I remember talk of going after an eBay seller of T-shirts which bore a raspberry coloured π symbol, one of a range of colours, because they had used "raspberry pi" to describe that one.
jamesh wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:27 am
I just thought it ironic that when they're stopping us using a common name and then copy ours.
How is "Android Pie" or even just "Pie" copying 'ours' ?

It doesn't take a Google lawyer to point out "Pie" is not "Pi", and that the Foundation has no claim at all on "Pie" as a trademark or any part of one.

It's okay to perceive an irony but it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

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Re: Definition of ironic

Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:03 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:39 am
Perhaps if The Register picked up the story, then the BBC might pick it up...
But what exactly is the story here ?

Google may have asked the Foundation to stop using the "PIXEL" name because they owned that trademark, or licensed it, or simply considered it likely to be confused with a word or phrase which Google were using. Google may even have warned that if the Foundation didn't stop using that word they would consider taking legal action to force them to stop using it.

That's the usual format of a cease and desist request.

I don't see any evidence that Google behaved wrongly, maliciously, unfairly, or that there is any real story here.

Google's Pixel range was launched in February 2013 and "Pixel" became established as a brand name. Raspberry Pi's "PIXEL" was introduced in September 2016. I think most people would agree that there is scope for confusion as to what anyone means when they refer to something by the generic "pixel" term. And if Google are going to be considered to be riding the Pi's coat tails by naming their latest OS product "Pie" there's even more of a claim of that when the Foundation used Google's established brand name.

I don't believe there was any deliberate wrong doing by the Foundation but Google had every right to address the situation which arose.

Just because the Foundation is the underdog when it comes to resources and ability to fight cases, is a charity, that doesn't mean Google is somehow being unfair or wrong. No more than the Foundation would be unfair or wrong if it were to tell some kid to stop using the Raspberry Pi mark in their web site name and threaten legal action if they did not.

In fact, if The Register ran the story I would expect there to be comments along the lines of "idiots", "what did they expect?", "Pixel was established as a brand long before the Pi used it", "did they not undertake due diligence when choosing a name?".

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Re: Definition of ironic

Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:05 am

hippy wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:13 am
wolf.z wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:16 am
Stop google from claiming common words.
If that were not allowed it would have to apply to everyone and that would not allow Raspberry Pi to be a trademark.

The Foundation has had its moments when it comes to chasing down alleged infringement. I remember talk of going after an eBay seller of T-shirts which bore a raspberry coloured π symbol, one of a range of colours, because they had used "raspberry pi" to describe that one.
jamesh wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:27 am
I just thought it ironic that when they're stopping us using a common name and then copy ours.
How is "Android Pie" or even just "Pie" copying 'ours' ?

It doesn't take a Google lawyer to point out "Pie" is not "Pi", and that the Foundation has no claim at all on "Pie" as a trademark or any part of one.

It's okay to perceive an irony but it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
Not sure what your dialect is, but here in Cambridge, UK, Pi is pronounced the same as Pie.

So, we started with Raspberry Pi, there have been Orange Pi, Apple Pi, NanoPi, BananaPi, and now Android Pie.

If you cannot see the irony, I'm not going to explain it, but here's a thought, if I started a company call KayEffSee, selling fried chicken, do you think I would get very far?
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Re: Definition of ironic

Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:08 am

hippy wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:03 am
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:39 am
Perhaps if The Register picked up the story, then the BBC might pick it up...
But what exactly is the story here ?

Google may have asked the Foundation to stop using the "PIXEL" name because they owned that trademark, or licensed it, or simply considered it likely to be confused with a word or phrase which Google were using. Google may even have warned that if the Foundation didn't stop using that word they would consider taking legal action to force them to stop using it.

That's the usual format of a cease and desist request.

I don't see any evidence that Google behaved wrongly, maliciously, unfairly, or that there is any real story here.

Google's Pixel range was launched in February 2013 and "Pixel" became established as a brand name. Raspberry Pi's "PIXEL" was introduced in September 2016. I think most people would agree that there is scope for confusion as to what anyone means when they refer to something by the generic "pixel" term. And if Google are going to be considered to be riding the Pi's coat tails by naming their latest OS product "Pie" there's even more of a claim of that when the Foundation used Google's established brand name.

I don't believe there was any deliberate wrong doing by the Foundation but Google had every right to address the situation which arose.

Just because the Foundation is the underdog when it comes to resources and ability to fight cases, is a charity, that doesn't mean Google is somehow being unfair or wrong. No more than the Foundation would be unfair or wrong if it were to tell some kid to stop using the Raspberry Pi mark in their web site name and threaten legal action if they did not.

In fact, if The Register ran the story I would expect there to be comments along the lines of "idiots", "what did they expect?", "Pixel was established as a brand long before the Pi used it", "did they not undertake due diligence when choosing a name?".
You can have trademarks with the same name in different areas. In my opinion, a graphical desktop is in a different trade segment to a mobile phone - one is a piece of software, one is a piece of hardware. Note that AIUI Google only managed to Trademark the Pixel name in ONE region worldwide....

Or should we stop calling those usually square light transmitting panels in our houses Windows because MS have a trademark?
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Re: Definition of ironic

Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:30 am

Raspbian Pixel was launched Sept 2016.

I'm not a lawyer nor that familiar with Trademarks, but a quick check on http://www.wipo.int/branddb/en/# says Google's original trademark for Pixel was registration 5091394 "Date of filing of the application 21.02.2013, Date of the registration 29.11.2016", classifications
"09 Computers; laptop computers; tablet computers; mobile phones
42 Technical support services, namely, troubleshooting in the nature of diagnosing computer hardware".
The first Pixel phone was launched Oct 2016. They hadn't really done anything with the trademark until that point.

Their registration of the "G PIXEL" logo in registration 5186566 was filed 03.10.2016.

They have a pending application registration 87643989 from 12.10.2017 trademarks PIXEL for
09 Computer hardware; computers; tablet computers; smartphones; mobile phones; electronic devices for browsing computers and the Internet, providing access to the Internet, viewing information on global computer networks, voice command and recognition, speech-to-text conversion, personal information management, voice and data transmission, and hands-free use and remote control of electronic devices; multifunctional electronic devices for voice and data transmission; handheld digital electronic devices for recording, organizing, transmitting, manipulating, and reviewing text, data, image, and audio files; wireless communication devices for voice, data and image transmission including voice, text and picture messaging, video and still image camera; wireless communication device for providing real-time translation, for browsing the internet, for transmitting voice and data, for providing and managing personal information, and for providing hands-free use and control of computers, tablets, phones, and PDAs; computer and hardware microprocessor chips; computer and hardware chips for mobile devices, namely, laptops, handheld computers, tablets, wearable headsets, mobile phones, and smartphones; data processing and machine learning systems composed of computer chips, computer hardware, and software; computer operating software; computer application software for use with smartphones, tablets, handheld computers, audio/video equipment, cameras, wearable computers, smartwatches, and wearable computing devices, namely, for allowing the user to interact with, exchange data with, remotely control and make optimal use of the features of all aforesaid mobile computing devices and for the retrieval, download, storage, transmission, and display of digital content, computer software, computer games, audio works, visual works, audiovisual works, electronic publications, books, movies, and music; computer software for voice command and recognition, speech-to-text conversion, personal information management, and accessing, browsing, searching, downloading, and manipulating online databases, audio, video, and multimedia content; audio speakers; earbuds; earphones; headphones; microphones; power adapters, battery chargers, electric charging cables, and cases specifically adapted for and used for charging earbuds, earphones, and headphones; cushions, pads, cases, covers, and protective covers specially adapted for mobile phones, smartphones, and electronic devices; computer peripherals, namely, hands-free devices, headsets, keyboards, chargers, batteries, power adapters, styluses and cables, all for use with computers, tablets, mobile phones, and smartphones
42 Design, development, and testing services for others in the fields of integrated circuits, semiconductors, microprocessors, and computer hardware for signal processing, signal conversion, signal filtering, wireless communication, and audio, visual, and data processing

TBH it was partly just bad timing. As with most companies they don't announce new products in advance, so we weren't to know that they were going to use the adopt the term for their new phones. I thought there was a trademark sweep done before having chosen the name, but i wasn't involved so won't speculate.
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Heater
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Re: Definition of ironic

Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:31 am

That the the thing. Trade marks are a lot to do with product confusion.

I know my better half gets mighty angry when she sends me out to buy some pie and I come back with another couple of computers instead.

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Re: Definition of ironic

Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:53 am

6by9 wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:30 am
The first Pixel phone was launched Oct 2016. They hadn't really done anything with the trademark until that point.
The "Pixel" brand was introduced with the Chromebook Pixel in 2013. Whether anyone else could use the name would be something for the lawyers to argue and the courts to settle.

A name, word or phrase doesn't need to be a trademark or a registered trademark for the courts to rule against other people using it but it obviously helps the case if it is.

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Re: Definition of ironic

Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:09 pm

hippy wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:53 am
The "Pixel" brand was introduced with the Chromebook Pixel in 2013. Whether anyone else could use the name would be something for the lawyers to argue and the courts to settle.

A name, word or phrase doesn't need to be a trademark or a registered trademark for the courts to rule against other people using it but it obviously helps the case if it is.
"Chromebook Pixel" is a separate trademark as registration number 5082511. Whenever I saw it referenced there it was always that combined term, not as Pixel.

Anyway it's all in the past.
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