pixelomer
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You can now run Windows 10 (not IOT) on your Raspberry Pi 3

Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:02 pm

I am aware that there are already topics about this, but this topic contains updated information.

You can now run full Windows 10 ARM64 on your Raspberry Pi 3B or 3B+ using Tiano Core UEFI for Raspberry Pi by andreiw! It still needs a lot of work. The SD card is so slow that Windows takes at least 15 minutes to boot, the USB drivers are buggy that they stop working after a period of time (ranges from 0 seconds to an hour). If you want to try it out anyway, have a look at the tutorial video. I have also been working on a Windows 10 imager for Windows to image Windows on an SD card for use with a Raspberry Pi, it's called WinPi-Imager, and is written in C#. It's still being developed and it's not done yet. If you don't know what you are doing, do NOT try using WinPi-Imager until it's released as an executable, as it is so unstable that it has the potential of DESTROYING your SD card, or even your hard drive. Below is a list of advantages of having Windows 10 on Pi, issues with it, etc.

Advantages of Windows 10 on ARM64 on Raspberry Pi 3

- Windows on Windows - Lets you run 32-bit Windows applications seamlessly on ARM64. It works quite well, even Office works!
- User-friendly - You don't need to use a terminal for everything.
- Nearly everyone has an experience with Windows.

Issues with it

- It was not meant for the Pi in the first place.
- USB drivers are buggy (can be fixed).
- SD card driver is so slow (can be fixed).
- A registry hack is used to boot into Windows instead of booting into Windows installer, so some functionality is missing. Currently you don't need a license to run it; I don't think you can even license it in the current situation.
- No Wi-Fi, no ethernet, no GPIO access. We need more drivers.
Last edited by pixelomer on Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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DougieLawson
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Re: You can now run Windows 10 on your Raspberry Pi 3

Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:00 pm

How long in years is it going to be before that is done. At the moment it's good for neither use nor ornament.
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Imperf3kt
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Re: You can now run Windows 10 on your Raspberry Pi 3

Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:15 pm

Could you please add "desktop" after 'Windows 10', to make it more clear you are not talking about Windows 10 core IOT
Stop plugging your fan directly into the GPIO 5v
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Heater
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Re: You can now run Windows 10 on your Raspberry Pi 3

Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:35 pm

Where does one buy a Windows 10 ARM64 license? I presume you need a license. Windows Home is over a hundred dollars.

The only thing that makes Windows 10 usable for me is the Windows Subsystem for Linux. Does that work on ARM64?

Oh wait, Why do that when I can just run Linux on the Pi?

The only Windows program I like to use is LTSpice from Analog Devices http://www.analog.com/en/design-center/ ... lator.html. Does that work on Windows 10 ARM64?

jamesh
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Re: You can now run Windows 10 on your Raspberry Pi 3

Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:18 am

Can I suggest that if people have nothing useful to say they say nothing?
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Heater
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Re: You can now run Windows 10 on your Raspberry Pi 3

Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:27 am

Fair point jamesh.

Although I think my question re: Windows 10 ARM64 license is pertinent. As far a I can tell from sniffing around microsoft's pages it's not possible to buy it. The only way to run this is to pirate it.

Or have I missed a point somewhere?

pixelomer
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Re: You can now run Windows 10 (not IOT) on your Raspberry Pi 3

Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:49 am

I was unable to find any way to get a Windows 10 ARM64 (Insider) ISO other than the current way. Even the official download site doesn't have ARM build. Sadly, the only possible way to get Windows 10 for ARM64 or AArch64 is to download it from 3rd party websites. I don't think this is piracy, since it is not being sold anyway.

[Mod edit] strike-through, it certainly IS piracy, as windows is NOT free to use.

Edit: Removed link to the download site.
Last edited by pixelomer on Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Heater
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Re: You can now run Windows 10 (not IOT) on your Raspberry Pi 3

Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:18 am

I don't think this is piracy, since it is not being sold anyway
What do you mean?

I can find no place to download Win 10 ARM64 from Microsoft. I cannot find any mention of a license for Win 10 ARM64 images anywhere.

If there are no such things and you have a copy of Win 10 ARM64 then that is a copyright infringement. Commonly known as "piracy" and not something we should be encouraging around here.

This is serious. Eric Lundgren is facing 15 months in prison and a huge fine for distributing Windows restore CDs. Images that Microsoft gives away for free anyway.
https://www.polygon.com/windows/2018/4/ ... oft-prison

If anyone knows better please let us know.

hippy
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Re: You can now run Windows 10 (not IOT) on your Raspberry Pi 3

Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:18 pm

Heater wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:18 am
Eric Lundgren is facing 15 months in prison and a huge fine for distributing Windows restore CDs. Images that Microsoft gives away for free anyway.
https://www.polygon.com/windows/2018/4/ ... oft-prison

If anyone knows better please let us know.
Lundgren is facing prison because of the way he was selling those CD's and how he represented what they were; he was deliberately passing those off as something they were not. He pleaded guilty to conspiracy to traffic in counterfeit goods and criminal copyright infringement.

Had Lundgren acted legitimately and legally, as others providing restore CD's do, he would not have had any problems, as others don't, and would not have found himself being pursued for illegal activities by the US Government.

And it should be noted that it was the US government which instigated this case for trafficking in counterfeit goods as they normally would regardless of what was being counterfeited. It was the "United States of America" which were the Plaintiff-Appellee in this case not Microsoft.

We can argue all day about what the value of restore disks is, especially those supposedly 'given away free', but that is a separate issue to the scamming and illegality which Lundgren indulged in.

Lundgren admitted in court he knew he was not authorized to reproduce and sell the reinstallation discs he was trading. He knew he was breaking the law. He pleaded guilty to those offences. His appeal was on the basis that his punishment was too severe for what he had done. The US Court of Appeals ruling upholding that punishment can be found here -

https://regmedia.co.uk/2018/04/25/lundg ... ruling.pdf

There are however licensing issues with WOA and in relation to use with a Pi and those do ultimately need to be cleared up. Microsoft undoubtedly knows what is going on yet have seemingly done nothing so far to stop that. But that doesn't mean they are authorising it.

We will only know what the definitive situation from Microsoft's perspective is if and when they make an official statement on that.

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Re: You can now run Windows 10 (not IOT) on your Raspberry Pi 3

Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:51 am

My response - why would you really want to - Linux is a better O/S all round, is free (legally), is already working well on ARM, & runs quite fast.

Compatibility is often quoted, but Libre Office is compatible, until MS changes MS Office so that it isn't again, but that is the way they work.

at0m1c
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Re: You can now run Windows 10 (not IOT) on your Raspberry Pi 3

Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:10 pm

k-pi wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:51 am
My response - why would you really want to - Linux is a better O/S all round, is free (legally), is already working well on ARM, & runs quite fast.

Compatibility is often quoted, but Libre Office is compatible, until MS changes MS Office so that it isn't again, but that is the way they work.
Yes everybody knows Linux is a better O/S all round. I could name several operating systems that are better than windows. However, some of us need to use a Windows application that isn't available on anything else.

I've got a Raspberry Pi in my car and I've fitted a 7 inch screen into my dashboard. I need it for listening to MP3s + digital radio + satnav and I'm having problems doing all of that with Linux. Digital radio (DAB) is the biggest problem because there is only one program available for the Pi called Welle.io and it hasn't even reached version 1 yet (currently RC3). It has to be compiled for the Raspberry Pi which takes days. Every time I get it working, it works a few times then freezes the Raspberry Pi so I have switch it off and back on again. The person who codded it doesn't even have a Raspberry Pi to test it. There's no other DAB radio software available for Raspbian.

I've only had it working a few times but then it starts crashing/freezing and requires re-compiling again on a clean install of Linux. It then takes another 2 hours to get the satnav working again which is a very basic and dated program. It's very time consuming. I did backup my SD card when it was all working but then the radio starts freezing. The person who wrote the radio software doesn't even have a Raspberry Pi as it's designed to work on other operating systems.

There's also only one Satellite Navigation program available for Raspbian called Navit which is mediocre at best but I can live with it.

DAB radio works very well on both Windows and Android. Currently I'm only using my Raspberry Pi as an MP3 player but I'm waiting for one of the following to happen:

1. Dab Radio to be fixed on Raspbian
2. Android support to improve
3. Windows 10 support to improve

Whichever comes first. I'm hoping for number 1 but I'd install windows 10 if the issues got fixed anytime soon.

Heater
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Re: You can now run Windows 10 (not IOT) on your Raspberry Pi 3

Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:03 am

Sometimes people want to use Windows because there is some legacy Windows only program that they need to use. In my case that is usually some tool for setting up and controlling some hardware for which the vendor is only providing Windows support.

However Windows on the Pi or other ARM is very rarely going to be useful as such legacy Windows applications are only available for Intel based machines.

Besides there are the issues of very limited memory space and CPU performance on the Pi.

It must be a very rare case where Win 10 on a Pi would be actually be useful.

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Re: You can now run Windows 10 (not IOT) on your Raspberry Pi 3

Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:33 am

Heater wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:03 am
Sometimes people want to use Windows because there is some legacy Windows only program that they need to use. In my case that is usually some tool for setting up and controlling some hardware for which the vendor is only providing Windows support.

However Windows on the Pi or other ARM is very rarely going to be useful as such legacy Windows applications are only available for Intel based machines.

Besides there are the issues of very limited memory space and CPU performance on the Pi.

It must be a very rare case where Win 10 on a Pi would be actually be useful.
I would expect the number of cases where Windows is useful to be about the same as when Linux is useful. They are, after all, both just operating systems.

Whether that usefulness is cost effective is a different matter.

And, please, no OS bashing - I will delete all posts that do that. Please keep to the OP's question.
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fanoush
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Re: You can now run Windows 10 (not IOT) on your Raspberry Pi 3

Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:48 am

Heater wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:03 am
However Windows on the Pi or other ARM is very rarely going to be useful as such legacy Windows applications are only available for Intel based machines.
No, not only for intel machines.
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/window ... -emulation

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Re: You can now run Windows 10 (not IOT) on your Raspberry Pi 3

Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:27 am

fanoush wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:48 am
Heater wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:03 am
However Windows on the Pi or other ARM is very rarely going to be useful as such legacy Windows applications are only available for Intel based machines.
No, not only for intel machines.
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/window ... -emulation
I'm very skeptical...

IMHO any kind of emulation, including this one, will make it excruciatingly slow, no better that what we can now do with x86 emulation and wine. Microsoft are not magicians, they cannot change the nature of what they want to do.

they can transcode their own applications, so it seems that their "normal windows applications" run just as fast as on an X86 PC, but that is just an illusion which will be broken when you try to run real normal x86 windows apps.

The only advantage they have is that less code will need to go through the slow emulation process, and can run natively on ARM.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: You can now run Windows 10 (not IOT) on your Raspberry Pi 3

Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:37 am

The initial WindowsonArm Devices use a Qualcomm Snapdragon 835 Octa-Core SoC which is considerably faster than the Broadcom8237 SoC.

The HP Envy in test shows it is limited due to not having enough oomph, so even if one could get it running on a RPi 3B+ would expect horrendous boot up times....


The next generation Qualcomm Snapdragon 850 SoC is even further away from the BCM2837 SoC.


The bottom line is that Windows 95 (non FAT32 supported versions) running in DosBox is about the best one can achieve.


Yes six years of Raspberry Pi Forums and Windows (except Windows 10 IoT) is not viable except as an excercise in frustration !
Adieu

fanoush
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Re: You can now run Windows 10 (not IOT) on your Raspberry Pi 3

Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:53 am

mahjongg wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:27 am
I'm very skeptical...

IMHO any kind of emulation, including this one, will make it excruciatingly slow, no better that what we can now do with x86 emulation and wine. Microsoft are not magicians, they cannot change the nature of what they want to do.

they can transcode their own applications, so it seems that their "normal windows applications" run just as fast as on an X86 PC, but that is just an illusion which will be broken when you try to run real normal x86 windows apps.
Then perhaps you didn't make it past the first paragraph?
With dynamic recompilation and caching of the output it can be as fast as native code on subsequent runs.
Which can indeed be still slow when the software itself is bloated, but not because of x86 emulation.

Heater
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Re: You can now run Windows 10 (not IOT) on your Raspberry Pi 3

Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:11 pm

@Jamesh,
I would expect the number of cases where Windows is useful to be about the same as when Linux is useful. They are, after all, both just operating systems.
Yes they are "just" operating systems.

However, my claim is that given the large memory and CPU performance requirements of Win 10 it's performance on a Pi will be so poor as to be useless for most things that people expect to do with Win 10 machine. Given that most Win applications are only available a x86 binaries and will need some kind of emulation/translation the situation is even worse.
And, please, no OS bashing
No bashing from me. A happy Win 10 user on PC and laptop. I love it for it's Linux Subsystem for Windows!

@fanoush,
No, not only for intel machines....With dynamic recompilation and caching of the output it can be as fast as native code on subsequent runs.
With emulation and/or translation one can run almost anything on almost anything else. An extreme example is booting Linux on an 8 bit AVR micro-controller.

All this dynamic recompilation and cache sounds brilliant but again: My claim is that with the limited memory space, slow CPU performance, slow disk bandwidth of the Pi such a solution to run x86 apps on a Pi will be unusably slow, if it can be made to work at all.

I look forward to being proved wrong.

The only application from the Windows world I crave is the LTSPice circuit simulator from Analogue devices. Luckily it runs flawlessly and performs very well under Wine on Linux. Sadly x86 only still.

I will be stunned to see LTSpice running usefully on a Pi.

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Re: You can now run Windows 10 (not IOT) on your Raspberry Pi 3

Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:30 pm

It's like dynamic translation is a new thing.

Look up FX!32, which mean that Dec Alpha chips could run x86 code at 50% native speed, and since the Alpha was faster than any x86 processors at the time, it was pretty good.
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Re: You can now run Windows 10 (not IOT) on your Raspberry Pi 3

Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:46 pm

jamesh wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:30 pm
It's like dynamic translation is a new thing.

Look up FX!32, which mean that Dec Alpha chips could run x86 code at 50% native speed, and since the Alpha was faster than any x86 processors at the time, it was pretty good.
You probably made a typo, and meant "It's like dynamic translation is NOT a new thing."
or my sarcasm detector is off....

This just means that the host processor must be extremely fast to get a usable speed out of the emulated system, you can judge such a technology by the "success" Dec had in replacing x86 processors with Alpha's in 1996.
Just in time compilers and dynamic translation are nice, but no panacea, if any x86 code is ran only once caching it isn't really useful, and if its still used it will be an extreme memory hog.

I believe such a system can work to satisfaction when I see it, and no, running a copy of word isn't proof it works.
Time will tell....

hippy
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Re: You can now run Windows 10 (not IOT) on your Raspberry Pi 3

Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:18 pm

Maybe people could go watch the video and judge for themselves as to how responsive ARM 'running X86 code' is rather than speculating it will be too slow, too memory demanding, or unusable in some way to be of any use.

As for the utter nonsense that Windows 95 running in DosBox is about the best one can achieve; just watch the video and see Windows 10 desktop running on a Pi with pretty good performance IMO.

I don't know why any mention of Windows brings out the usual suspects to say it won't work when the evidence it can and does is staring them in the face. I could make a guess. Maybe it's a part of the toxicity of this forum which others have described ?

It often seems to me there's a concerted effort to inflame debate, drive discussion into the ground or get a thread locked so the discussion is silenced - job done!

Most of the negativity would be considered "concern trolling" and considered entirely unacceptable if that were directed at the Pi.

fruitoftheloom
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Re: You can now run Windows 10 (not IOT) on your Raspberry Pi 3

Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:32 pm

hippy wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:18 pm
Maybe people could go watch the video and judge for themselves as to how responsive ARM 'running X86 code' is rather than speculating it will be too slow, too memory demanding, or unusable in some way to be of any use.

As for the utter nonsense that Windows 95 running in DosBox is about the best one can achieve; just watch the video and see Windows 10 desktop running on a Pi with pretty good performance IMO.

I don't know why any mention of Windows brings out the usual suspects to say it won't work when the evidence it can and does is staring them in the face. I could make a guess. Maybe it's a part of the toxicity of this forum which others have described ?

It often seems to me there's a concerted effort to inflame debate, drive discussion into the ground or get a thread locked so the discussion is silenced - job done!

Most of the negativity would be considered "concern trolling" and considered entirely unacceptable if that were directed at the Pi.

Obviously we have a difference on what one considers usable and fully functional, each to their own.


If I had a need for Windows 10 Desktop would consider a used Intel Stick for around £90.00

I have an Asus CS10 for ChromeOS (used £60.00) rather than run Chromium OS on a RPi SBC.
Adieu

Heater
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Re: You can now run Windows 10 (not IOT) on your Raspberry Pi 3

Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:50 pm

hippy,
Maybe people could go watch the video and judge for themselves as to how responsive ARM 'running X86 code' is rather than speculating it will be too slow, too memory demanding, or unusable in some way to be of any use.
What makes you think we did not watch the video? I watched the video linked in the OP here. I guess you mean that one as it is the only one linked from this thread. Is there some other video you are referring to?

The video itself says it's not useful but might be in the future.

The video does not show any programs running under the Win 10 they booted on the Pi so it says nothing about how responsive ARM 'running X86 code' is.
...the usual suspects to say it won't work when the evidence it can and does is staring them in the face
There is no evidence staring anyone in the face here. The video shows Win 10 taking 15 minutes to boot on the Pi. There is no demo of it running anything when up.
I could make a guess. Maybe it's a part of the toxicity of this forum which others have described
Labeling everyone who disagrees with you or has a different opinion "toxic" is insulting. Please don't do that. Let's try to stick to debate and facts.

Meanwhile I worry about people downloading Microsoft operating systems from Russian websites. With no regard to copyright or licensing. All looks rather dodgy to me.

hippy
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Re: You can now run Windows 10 on your Raspberry Pi 3

Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:15 am

jamesh wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:18 am
Can I suggest that if people have nothing useful to say they say nothing?

fanoush
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Re: You can now run Windows 10 (not IOT) on your Raspberry Pi 3

Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:45 am

Heater wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:50 pm
Meanwhile I worry about people downloading Microsoft operating systems from Russian websites. With no regard to copyright or licensing. All looks rather dodgy to me.
As I explained in post that got deleted it is not downloaded from Russian websites. The site just generates links to microsoft download servers, there is nothing wrong with that. I guess you just worry too much.

I am more worried about combination of clueless people reporting perfectly valid posts _AND_ moderators removing it without any trace.

In removed post I linked blog post of author of well known software Winaero Tweaker (tool that makes Windows 10 much less painful to use, it is first thing I install on any new Windows machine/VM together with Classic Shell). The blog post describes how to run Windows 10 for arm64 inside QEMU. There is nothing wrong both with the blog post I linked and the site generating links to microsoft servers which is referred in that blog post.

Basically my post linked blog which linked site which linked microsoft servers and someone is worried about it and that was enough why my valid on-topic post was deleted? Oh, come on.

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