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Burngate
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Re: What If I Told You

Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:15 am

Burngate wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:33 pm
So far, two posts have been interesting, so 50% success rate (dropping to 40% when I press the "Submit" button)
Wow.
Original post title was possibly interesting, modified title less so.
First few posts turned out to be more interesting.

Now we're onto plant growth, relativity, and anthropomorphism versus evolution.
All we need now is to discuss theosophy and quantum mechanics, and whether Flores in Indonesia was populated by accident or if H. floresiensis deliberately went there, 700,000 years ago.

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rpdom
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Re: What If I Told You

Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:37 am

Burngate wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:15 am
Wow.
Original post title was possibly interesting, modified title less so.
First few posts turned out to be more interesting.

Now we're onto plant growth, relativity, and anthropomorphism versus evolution.
All we need now is to discuss theosophy and quantum mechanics, and whether Flores in Indonesia was populated by accident or if H. floresiensis deliberately went there, 700,000 years ago.
Also, does pineapple belong on pizza?

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bensimmo
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Re: What If I Told You... You could have a bad to the box Matrix Pi

Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:39 am

The rotation thing you remember are called clinostats.
Basically a clock dial with a cork platform of you want to make one at home


I hope you are monitoring light, moisture, height etc of your plants and have some irrigation system all power by a Po somewhere.

Light and moisture are obviously easy to monitor.
Height less so, but use string and a rotation device (an free spinning potentiometer) should get you close enough.

And of course the red chilli or blue chilli?

Heater
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Re: What If I Told You... You could have a bad to the box Matrix Pi

Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:27 am

The clinostat idea is interesting. The thing they had in that biology lab was not a clinostat though. It was a merry-go-round contraption built out of wood, about a meter in diameter with 8 or so little plant pots around its periphery. Spun by an electric motor a couple of times per second. Fast enough to create enough centrifugal force to cause the plants to lean in at about 45 degrees.

I'm ashamed to admit that there is no Pi based monitoring or control of my little chilli farm.

Heat I don't need to worry about, my balcony has been up at 32C everyday for over a month. Finland is has had it's hottest spring since forever and has been the warmest place in europe!

Light is plentiful, the balcony faces approximately south, days are long and it never gets dark at night at this time of year. I did use LED grow lamps for heat and light when the seedlings sprouting in February.

As for water, the plants tell me when they are thirsty, they start drooping.

I have no idea what varieties of chilli I have here. I did buy a selection of exotic looking chillies but most of them did not germinate. What I have now is from seeds collected from previous crops, which got all mixed up at some point.

I was wondering the other day if some Neural Net image recognition thing could be made to guess the breed of chilli from its leaves as they grow. They have different sizes, aspect ratio and curvatures.

Pineapple on Pizza is a mortal sin.

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bensimmo
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Re: What If I Told You... You could have a bad to the box Matrix Pi

Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:39 pm

So everything you describe there screams for IoT, you know the stuff you never new you needed and love it for a week and then forget about it but still leave it chugging away monitoring.



So the big thing you are talking about, subjects the plants to a centripetal force.
Creating a false gravity.

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Re: What If I Told You... You could have a bad to the box Matrix Pi

Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:17 pm

I'm all for systems to monitor and manage and report on things, IoT as they call it now a days.

Perhaps not my Chilli plants though. They are a different hobby. Most of the point of it is to watch them grow and tend to their needs myself. If I automated it all it would just be more of the electronics/programming hobby.

Yes false gravity. As I said above. Except Einstein would tell you it's not false at all, that there is no difference between gravity and acceleration.

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Re: What If I Told You... You could have a bad to the box Matrix Pi

Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:35 pm

jamesh wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:12 am
This thread took an odd turn!
I was thinking the same thing, Funny how the matrix thread turned into a thread about growing, only this time its plants, not people. :D
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Re: What If I Told You... You could have a bad to the box Matrix Pi

Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:38 pm

Heater wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:27 am

I'm ashamed to admit that there is no Pi based monitoring or control of my little chilli farm.

DM me. Lets fix that!
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MaxTheSpy
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Re: What If I Told You... You could have a bad to the box Matrix Pi

Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:40 pm

Heater wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:27 am

I'm ashamed to admit that there is no Pi based monitoring or control of my little chilli farm.

DM me. Lets fix that!
[/quote]
Heater wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:27 am
I was wondering the other day if some Neural Net image recognition thing could be made to guess the breed of chilli from its leaves as they grow. They have different sizes, aspect ratio and curvatures.
That could work, there are a few android apps you could run on the PI i think that use leavs for plant identification, It would be a cool project if you want to build it
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Re: What If I Told You

Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:49 pm

rpdom wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:37 am
Also, does pineapple belong on pizza?
Yes. Along with anchovies.

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Re: What If I Told You... You could have a bad to the box Matrix Pi

Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:57 pm

Heater wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:17 pm
Yes false gravity. As I said above. Except Einstein would tell you it's not false at all, that there is no difference between gravity and acceleration.
You mean the acceleration due to gravity ...

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Re: What If I Told You

Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:13 pm

W. H. Heydt wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:49 pm
rpdom wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:37 am
Also, does pineapple belong on pizza?
Yes. Along with anchovies.
Pineapple Yes, Anchovies No!!!!!!
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Re: What If I Told You

Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:00 pm

MaxTheSpy wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:13 pm
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:49 pm
rpdom wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:37 am
Also, does pineapple belong on pizza?
Yes. Along with anchovies.
Pineapple Yes, Anchovies No!!!!!!
Heretic.

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Re: What If I Told You... You could have a bad to the box Matrix Pi

Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:45 pm

jahboater,
You mean the acceleration due to gravity ...
No. I mean the "Equivalence principle". As Einstein put it:

"...assume the complete physical equivalence of a gravitational field and a corresponding acceleration of the reference system."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivalence_principle

Consider: You are in some box in space. You cannot observe anything outside of that box. You are experiencing some kind of force, as you do when you stand on the ground on your feet. The Equivalence principle states that there is no experiment you can do to determine if the force that your feel is due to the gravitational field of some big mass outside the box or the due to the box being accelerated.

This is a foundational assumption of the General Theory of Relativity.

Don't ask me anymore because my understanding of relativity is very fuzzy after that.

Those spinning seedlings I described cannot tell the difference between gravity and the acceleration caused by their rotation. They respond the same.

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davidcoton
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Re: What If I Told You... You could have a bad to the box Matrix Pi

Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:26 pm

Heater wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:45 pm
Those spinning seedlings I described cannot tell the difference between gravity and the acceleration caused by their rotation. They respond the same.
[pedant]
The rotation does not cause acceleration. Acceleration causes rotation.
[/pedant]
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Re: What If I Told You... You could have a bad to the box Matrix Pi

Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:55 pm

MaxTheSpy wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:38 pm
Heater wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:27 am

I'm ashamed to admit that there is no Pi based monitoring or control of my little chilli farm.

DM me. Lets fix that!
What is "DM", I see it a lot on these forums.

If its an intentional misspelling of 'PM', no can do. We're not old enough to send private messages on this forum.
User experiencing technical difficulties.

Heater
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Re: What If I Told You... You could have a bad to the box Matrix Pi

Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:16 pm

davidcoton,
[pedant]
The rotation does not cause acceleration. Acceleration causes rotation.
[/pedant]
I disagree. Chickens and eggs.

Consider:

You are spinning around in some pod on a fairground ride. You feel a force pulling you outward. Centrifugal or centripetal, whichever way you want to look at it. Where there is a force there is an acceleration, Newton's F=ma.

Now the fairground ride breaks and your pod goes flying off, it's not rotating around the ride anymore. All of a sudden that acceleration you were feelling vanishes.

Clearly the rotation was causing that acceleration. Stop the rotation and the acceleration disappears.

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Re: What If I Told You... You could have a bad to the box Matrix Pi

Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:08 am

Imperf3kt wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:55 pm
MaxTheSpy wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:38 pm
Heater wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:27 am

I'm ashamed to admit that there is no Pi based monitoring or control of my little chilli farm.

DM me. Lets fix that!
What is "DM", I see it a lot on these forums.

If its an intentional misspelling of 'PM', no can do. We're not old enough to send private messages on this forum.
Older People's Guide To Internet Message slang

DM - Direct Message
PM - Private Message
IM - Instant Message
AIM - AOL Instant Message
TG - Telegram
TXT - Text

Bonus:
LOL - Laugh Out Loud
BRB - Be Right Back
TTYL - Talk To You Later
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Re: What If I Told You... You could have a bad to the box Matrix Pi

Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:14 am

Imperf3kt wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:55 pm
MaxTheSpy wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:38 pm
Heater wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:27 am

I'm ashamed to admit that there is no Pi based monitoring or control of my little chilli farm.

DM me. Lets fix that!
What is "DM",
D as in the word you probably use at the beginning of a letter to someone.

M as in a personal pronoun.

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Re: What If I Told You... You could have a bad to the box Matrix Pi

Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:25 am

Sorry, duplicate post. For some crazy reason I'm not allowed to delete either of them.
Last edited by Heater on Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What If I Told You... You could have a bad to the box Matrix Pi

Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:27 am

MaxTheSpy,

OMG, WTF, r u a SNERT? :)

Your post is so ageist. People have been using such "slang" in electronic messaging for almost 200 years !

"DM" makes no sense here, given that the feature is called "Private Message" on this forum.

GN ES 73 OM

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rpdom
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Re: What If I Told You... You could have a bad to the box Matrix Pi

Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:02 am

Heater wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:27 am
MaxTheSpy,

OMG, WTF, r u a SNERT? :)

Your post is so ageist. People have been using such "slang" in electronic messaging for almost 200 years !

"DM" makes no sense here, given that the feature is called "Private Message" on this forum.

GN ES 73 OM
The one I hate is on the book of face "inbox me". WTF?

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Burngate
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Re: What If I Told You... You could have a bad to the box Matrix Pi

Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:28 am

Heater wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:16 pm
You are spinning around in some pod on a fairground ride. You feel a force pulling you outward. Centrifugal or centripetal, whichever way you want to look at it. Where there is a force there is an acceleration, Newton's F=ma.

Now the fairground ride breaks and your pod goes flying off, it's not rotating around the ride anymore. All of a sudden that acceleration you were feelling vanishes.

Clearly the rotation was causing that acceleration. Stop the rotation and the acceleration disappears.
That sounds wrong.
Surely, until it breaks, the parts of the ride connecting the pod to the centre are providing the force that makes the pod follow a curved path; because those parts always provide just enough force to keep their length constant, the curve has a constant radius of curvature; since the path is then repetitive, we call it rotation.

A body such as a planet is in free fall - it doesn't feel any acceleration. Yet because of the mass of the sun, it's in curved space-time, and travels in an ellipse. We again call that rotation.
A comet also travels in the same curved space-time, but (probably) follows a parabola or hyperbola. It's not repetitive, and we don't call it rotation.

According to http://www.election.demon.co.uk/1997LB.html in the 2001 election for the constituency of Wandsworth, Battersea, T. E. Barber sought election as the candidate of the 'No Fruit out of Context Party' which he had formed. He was opposed to the use of pineapple as a topping for pizza. He gained 411 votes.

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Re: What If I Told You... You could have a bad to the box Matrix Pi

Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:05 am

Burngate,

Yes, it sounds wrong, more on that below.

The difference in the roational situations of fair ground rides and plannets is significant. In the faiground case there is a force in the connection to the pod, the pod and it's occupants feel an acceleration. In the planet case the planet, Earth say, is connected to the sun by gravity but the planet, and we on it, do not feel any force. As you say, it seems we are in free-fall. Why is this?

It points to the idea that gravity is a very different thing than the other forces we know of. The force provided by that fairground ride basically comes down to electricity, the attraction and replusion of the atomic parts of the connecting rod due to the electic field.

One major differenc is that there is no "negative" for gravity as there is for other forces. Another difference is that it acts on all things that have mass (or energy) in the same way, it's not fussy.

I think it was these considerations that led Einstein to his "Priciple of Equivalence".

It all sounds wrong. Why?

To my mind a rotataing system is a stable system. It goes around and around, at the same rate and around the same axis, forever (barring some energy input or output we are ignoring for now).

davidcoton claimed: "The rotation does not cause acceleration. Acceleration causes rotation." I might claim the opposite. But really neither makes any sense to me. Which ever is causeing the other the revese must also be true, because it's a stable system, nothing about it changing over time. Except the instantaneous position of the parts, but the thing is symetrical about it's axis, thows positions are essentially the same.

A similar stable system of action and reaction is the famous harmonic oscillator, the pendulum. The fact that it has momentum at the bottom of the swing causes it to swing up to the highest place it can. The fact that it has potential enery at the top of the swing causes it to drop back to the bottom. Ad infinitum. In our analysis this has no beginning and no end, so which cases which.

As I said "chickens and eggs".

This all points to something even deeper. In the laws of physics there is no cause and effect. We like to see causes and effects as ordered in time. The cause happens first the effect happens later as a result. But the laws of of physics work exactly the same if time runs backwards. It's impossible to tell which is cause and which is effect.

Until we come to thermodynamics that is, but that is another story...

In 1983 a buddy from my university, Steve Housego, stood as a candidate in Lewisham. He called himself 'The Assassin's Bullet'. He got 173 votes.

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Re: What If I Told You... You could have a bad to the box Matrix Pi

Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:49 pm

Heater wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:05 am
Burngate,

Yes, it sounds wrong, more on that below.

The difference in the roational situations of fair ground rides and plannets is significant. In the faiground case there is a force in the connection to the pod, the pod and it's occupants feel an acceleration. In the planet case the planet, Earth say, is connected to the sun by gravity but the planet, and we on it, do not feel any force. As you say, it seems we are in free-fall. Why is this?

It points to the idea that gravity is a very different thing than the other forces we know of. The force provided by that fairground ride basically comes down to electricity, the attraction and replusion of the atomic parts of the connecting rod due to the electic field.

One major differenc is that there is no "negative" for gravity as there is for other forces. Another difference is that it acts on all things that have mass (or energy) in the same way, it's not fussy.

I think it was these considerations that led Einstein to his "Priciple of Equivalence".

It all sounds wrong. Why?

To my mind a rotataing system is a stable system. It goes around and around, at the same rate and around the same axis, forever (barring some energy input or output we are ignoring for now).

davidcoton claimed: "The rotation does not cause acceleration. Acceleration causes rotation." I might claim the opposite. But really neither makes any sense to me. Which ever is causeing the other the revese must also be true, because it's a stable system, nothing about it changing over time. Except the instantaneous position of the parts, but the thing is symetrical about it's axis, thows positions are essentially the same.

A similar stable system of action and reaction is the famous harmonic oscillator, the pendulum. The fact that it has momentum at the bottom of the swing causes it to swing up to the highest place it can. The fact that it has potential enery at the top of the swing causes it to drop back to the bottom. Ad infinitum. In our analysis this has no beginning and no end, so which cases which.

As I said "chickens and eggs".

This all points to something even deeper. In the laws of physics there is no cause and effect. We like to see causes and effects as ordered in time. The cause happens first the effect happens later as a result. But the laws of of physics work exactly the same if time runs backwards. It's impossible to tell which is cause and which is effect.

Until we come to thermodynamics that is, but that is another story...

In 1983 a buddy from my university, Steve Housego, stood as a candidate in Lewisham. He called himself 'The Assassin's Bullet'. He got 173 votes.
@Heater,

It's just as well we're in "Off Topic"!
We've had this argument before, and I don't expect to convince you. Rotation (orbital or wheel-like) can be explained by Newtonian mechanics, relativity is not required.
( I don't understand Relativity adequately and I suspect you don't either -- especially when you ignore the dimentional analysis of the difference between force (gravity) and acceleration, which Einstein's wording carefully does not.)
Go back to basics and consider the direction of the instantaneous velocity of a point on a wheel rim, or a spacecraft in orbit. It is tangential. In order to stay at a constant distance from the centre of rotation, the object requires an acceleration towards that centre. This is called centripetal acceleration. It in turn is caused bu the tension in the spokes, or by the attractive force of gravity. Just because a system is periodic and stable, does not mean that the instantaneous cause and effect cannot be traced. The mathematical process of differentiation (and its inverse integration) provides the tools for examining such systems.
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