hippy
Posts: 3896
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:34 pm
Location: UK

Desktop Windows 10 on Pi

Wed May 30, 2018 12:04 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b1IxvKJeho

Still very much proof of concept at present but things are looking promising.

It would be nice if those who simply wish to say it's pointless, Linux is better, apps will need to be recompiled, or indulge in Microsoft or Windows bashing and hate, or seek to get the thread derailed and locked as soon as possible could keep their thoughts to themselves. That may be too much to wish for but you can prove me wrong.

fruitoftheloom
Posts: 17603
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:40 pm

Re: Desktop Windows 10 on Pi

Wed May 30, 2018 1:58 pm

hippy wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 12:04 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b1IxvKJeho

Still very much proof of concept at present but things are looking promising.

It would be nice if those who simply wish to say it's pointless, Linux is better, apps will need to be recompiled, or indulge in Microsoft or Windows bashing and hate, or seek to get the thread derailed and locked as soon as possible could keep their thoughts to themselves. That may be too much to wish for but you can prove me wrong.

Yes good idea, but lack of memory on RPi is always going to be a limitation, and as far as I understand it Windows 10 ARM is a Aarch64 OS which run x86-32 software in an emulator ??

https://www.slashgear.com/windows-10-on ... 18900/amp/

viewtopic.php?f=62&t=210688

viewtopic.php?f=62&t=209471

15 minutes boot up great !!!
Adieu

Heater
Posts: 9986
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: Desktop Windows 10 on Pi

Wed May 30, 2018 6:58 pm

I must say that sounds like an impressive achievement. The result of the huge effort and skill of many it seems.

I will respect your wishes to not say anything else.

alphanumeric
Posts: 1537
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:17 pm
Location: Sydney, Nova Scotia, Canada

Re: Desktop Windows 10 on Pi

Thu May 31, 2018 11:23 am

Anything would be better that Windows 10 IoT, IMHO. At least for those of us that aren't very good at the Visual Studio stuff. I'm sure 10 IoT has potential, it just doesn't do it for me. I've been wanting asking for a port of 10 Mobile for the Pi for a while now. I personally don't have the skill set to get the job done. I've been watching this project with keen interest and will give it a go myself at some point. I may wait till its a little more refined and more usable though. I do have a 3B doing nothing at the moment so maybe I will have a look see sooner than later. ;)

hippy
Posts: 3896
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:34 pm
Location: UK

Re: Desktop Windows 10 on Pi

Thu May 31, 2018 1:32 pm

alphanumeric wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 11:23 am
I've been watching this project with keen interest and will give it a go myself at some point. I may wait till its a little more refined and more usable though.
It is still some way short but has reached the stage where I am getting close to giving it a try to see where it's at.

I do understand some people have a dislike of Microsoft and Windows and this isn't for them but for many others it's wonderful news.

Back in 2016, when the Pi 3B was launched, Eben was enthusiastic about Desktop Windows 10 on a Pi; "It's a Microsoft decision. I would love it if Microsoft would do that. I'd love to see it". So, even though third-parties are making this effort, there may be some help or support for it from the Foundation.

I'm not sure though. Posts, even though clearly on-topic and related to the Pi, if they mention Windows, seem to quickly get moved to off-topic. There were also previously expressed dreams of manufacturer's cloning Pi's and the Pi running Android which have disappeared over time, so who knows.

We will have to wait and see how it goes. The good news is they've got this far and seem determined to push on and, hopefully, the further they get the more they will be encouraged to reach completion.

Heater
Posts: 9986
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: Desktop Windows 10 on Pi

Thu May 31, 2018 1:41 pm

Hippy,
...there may be some help or support for it[Windows] from the Foundation.
If I ever find out that the Raspberry Pi Foundation, a registered charity in the UK, is giving succour to a mightily wealthy corporation in a foreign country above and beyond offering information that is publically available to all of us I will have to boycott the Raspberry Pi. That would be a real shame and a very sad day.

alphanumeric
Posts: 1537
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:17 pm
Location: Sydney, Nova Scotia, Canada

Re: Desktop Windows 10 on Pi

Thu May 31, 2018 7:45 pm

Heater wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 1:41 pm
Hippy,
...there may be some help or support for it[Windows] from the Foundation.
If I ever find out that the Raspberry Pi Foundation, a registered charity in the UK, is giving succour to a mightily wealthy corporation in a foreign country above and beyond offering information that is publically available to all of us I will have to boycott the Raspberry Pi. That would be a real shame and a very sad day.
It pretty well has to be a cooperative effort. Microsoft owns the rights to the software, Windows. They could likely put an end to this project in the blink of an eye if they so pleased. Just on licencing issues. And the Pi foundation controls the hardware side of it. Some of the workings are proprietary. You won't get that info without asking nicely. ; ) The two must already be talking or their wouldn't be a 10 IoT for the Pi.

Heater
Posts: 9986
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: Desktop Windows 10 on Pi

Thu May 31, 2018 9:31 pm

alphanumeric,
It pretty well has to be a cooperative effort
Why? Perhaps MS needs the Pi but the RPF does not need MS. The Pi is a huge success without.
Microsoft owns the rights to the software, Windows.
Yes. So what? If they want to run their code on the Pi they can figure out how to do it the same way you or I do.
They could likely put an end to this project in the blink of an eye if they so pleased.
Yes. As far as I know this is not an MS project. They could take legal action against whoever the developers are for whatever reason.
Just on licencing issues.
Oh yes, that's why, licensing issues.
And the Pi foundation controls the hardware side of it. Some of the workings are proprietary. You won't get that info without asking nicely. ; ) The two must already be talking or their wouldn't be a 10 IoT for the Pi.
Indeed.

Here is the thing for me...

I don't care if MS or anyone else gets their code running on a Pi. No more than I care if you or millions of other people get their code running. That is what it is for after all.

The RPF is a charitable organization in the UK.

We, the purchasers of the Pi and other goodies, are the donors to that charity. Are their any other donors that give the RPF money for nothing?

If some corporation is getting the secret information on the Pi, a hotline to success, preferential treatment that we donors are not getting, then that would be a disgusting situation to me. That implies we donors to a charity are supporting a huge business concern.

There is the ethical/moral dilemma.

hippy
Posts: 3896
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:34 pm
Location: UK

Re: Desktop Windows 10 on Pi

Thu May 31, 2018 11:49 pm

Heater wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 9:31 pm
We, the purchasers of the Pi and other goodies, are the donors to that charity. Are their any other donors that give the RPF money for nothing?
Setting aside whether purchasers of Pi computers are donors or not, whether anyone ever hands over money for nothing; the Foundation does receive donations, grants and financial support from others including Microsoft -

https://www.raspberrypi.org/about/supporters

Heater
Posts: 9986
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: Desktop Windows 10 on Pi

Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:13 am

Thanks hippy. I don't recall ever seeing that page before. That is a good healthy list of supporters.

alphanumeric
Posts: 1537
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:17 pm
Location: Sydney, Nova Scotia, Canada

Re: Desktop Windows 10 on Pi

Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:49 am

Heater wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 9:31 pm
Yes. So what? If they want to run their code on the Pi they can figure out how to do it the same way you or I do.
I'm talking about running an OS not just "code". If you or I were to try and creat a new OS for the Pi, I think we are going to need more than just the physical hardware. I'm no expert on this and may have it all wrong but I think there is some propiatarry info needed that can only be gotten from the Pi Foundation. The DSI connecotr comes to mind. Granted you could just use HDMI. I don't think that the only gotcha either which may explain why this unofficial build is in the state its in. As far as i know reverse egineering something like the raspberry Pi isn't all that easy. Just my 2 cents, as I say, I'm no expert on this type of stuff, far from it actually.

fruitoftheloom
Posts: 17603
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:40 pm

Re: Desktop Windows 10 on Pi

Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:14 am

alphanumeric wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:49 am
Heater wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 9:31 pm
Yes. So what? If they want to run their code on the Pi they can figure out how to do it the same way you or I do.
I'm talking about running an OS not just "code". If you or I were to try and creat a new OS for the Pi, I think we are going to need more than just the physical hardware. I'm no expert on this and may have it all wrong but I think there is some propiatarry info needed that can only be gotten from the Pi Foundation. The DSI connecotr comes to mind. Granted you could just use HDMI. I don't think that the only gotcha either which may explain why this unofficial build is in the state its in. As far as i know reverse egineering something like the raspberry Pi isn't all that easy. Just my 2 cents, as I say, I'm no expert on this type of stuff, far from it actually.

In a previous discussion aeons ago it was stated that RPT provided what is required to Microsoft.

This attempt to get Windows 10 ARM for Desktop is hitting road blocks because like Windows RT and Windows Phone they are primarily designed for a completely different SoC Architecture (Nvidia /
Qualcomm)

Still an interesting effort, just like Android !!
Adieu

hippy
Posts: 3896
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:34 pm
Location: UK

Re: Desktop Windows 10 on Pi

Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:57 am

alphanumeric wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:49 am
I'm no expert on this and may have it all wrong but I think there is some propiatarry info needed that can only be gotten from the Pi Foundation.
Accelerated graphics is the issue which I see most frequently cited. If a project works but is too unresponsive to be of practical use for want of accelerated graphics, and that requires Foundation or Broadcom assistance to resolve, and that's not forthcoming, that project will likely wither on the vine, have a much reduced appeal to potential users.

That appears to have been the main stumbling block for initial attempts to port Android to a Pi and also seemed to me to be an issue for Google's own early releases of Android Things. I haven't tried either of late so don't know if things have improved, and having faster Pi's may have helped. Watching the Windows 10 video linked in the opening post seemed to show acceptable responsiveness, except during the Excel splash screen where it appeared to me to have struggled a bit.

There may be other things as well but they are perhaps not so critical if they are not so immediately problematic to the majority of users. I would shrug if Windows 10 on a Pi did not support DSI displays or CSI cameras but appreciate others might desire those to be supported.

I don't have too much of a problem if RPT is providing assistance which is not made publicly available for everyone. Their role is to make profits from the sales of Pi which is gift-aided to the Foundation to allow it to further their goals.

Anything which increases the appeal of the Pi, promotes the Pi, sells more Pi computers, generates more profit, increases the income the Foundation receives, allows the Foundation to do more charitable work seems only a good thing to me.

As long as Foundation income increases it seems mostly immaterial how RPT resources are used, and that may be minimised when those needing assistance are contributing to the cost of getting that. If expending a million quid generates a million quid for the Foundation that sounds good to me. It would seem to be cutting off one's nose to spite one's face to want it otherwise.

Where I would have ethical concerns is if RPT were picking and choosing who they were willing to help on ideological rather than commercial grounds.

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