Heater
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Re: PLOT TWIST: Intel considering buying Broadcom

Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:36 am

Looks to me like Intel is worried that the future does not have Intel inside. PC sales are down and the world's focus is on mobile and power efficiency in the server farm. Hence the recent acquisition spree and this Broadcom idea.

Here's hoping the RISC V idea takes of so that we don't have to depend on these monopolies.

jamesh
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Re: PLOT TWIST: Intel considering buying Broadcom

Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:34 pm

Heater wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:36 am
Looks to me like Intel is worried that the future does not have Intel inside. PC sales are down and the world's focus is on mobile and power efficiency in the server farm. Hence the recent acquisition spree and this Broadcom idea.

Here's hoping the RISC V idea takes of so that we don't have to depend on these monopolies.
What's wrong with ARM? Cheap and effective.


Going to be a long haul for RISC V, might get there, but chip design and manufacture is very expensive.
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Heater
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Re: PLOT TWIST: Intel considering buying Broadcom

Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:37 pm

jamesh,
What's wrong with ARM? Cheap and effective.
Really?

If I happened to win the lotto and wanted to get my latest hare brained idea into silicon:

1) How much would it cost me to licence an ARM processor for my chip?

2) How long would those negotiations take?

3) What does that ARM design processor core offer that I cannot get from the free RISC V ISA spec.?

4) Or, heck, what does it offer that I cannot make with my own RISC V core design in Verilog, VHDL, etc?

Some hard factual information here would be useful.
Going to be a long haul for RISC V, might get there, but chip design and manufacture is very expensive.
Oddly it has never been cheaper to get chips made. In the not cutting edge process nodes of course.

Then, when you see the likes of Nvida and Western Digital using RISC V in their devices you start to think the days of ARM in embedded devices are coming to an end very soon. SoftBank has wasted it's money.

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Re: PLOT TWIST: Intel considering buying Broadcom

Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:35 am

Heater wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:37 pm
jamesh,
What's wrong with ARM? Cheap and effective.
Really?

If I happened to win the lotto and wanted to get my latest hare brained idea into silicon:

1) How much would it cost me to licence an ARM processor for my chip?

2) How long would those negotiations take?

3) What does that ARM design processor core offer that I cannot get from the free RISC V ISA spec.?

4) Or, heck, what does it offer that I cannot make with my own RISC V core design in Verilog, VHDL, etc?

Some hard factual information here would be useful.
Going to be a long haul for RISC V, might get there, but chip design and manufacture is very expensive.
Oddly it has never been cheaper to get chips made. In the not cutting edge process nodes of course.

Then, when you see the likes of Nvida and Western Digital using RISC V in their devices you start to think the days of ARM in embedded devices are coming to an end very soon. SoftBank has wasted it's money.
1. Depends on which core you want to licence and how many you are likely to sell. They are all fairly cheap, but get a decent negotiator.
2. Few months.
3. Years of development behind it, extensive debugger and OS support. Easy integration with the Mali graphics core plus all the other extra blocks ARM can supply. Instruction set that is well known so easier to find people experienced in it.
4. You can have something working inside 1 year, rather than the 5 it will take to develop from scratch.

The guy in charge of softbank is very very smart. He is not renowned for wasting his money.

If you are thinking of doing your own design in VHDL and having it fabbed, depending on the complexity of the device, I would give yourself, and your team of at least 3 people, because that is how many you will need to do it right, at least a year to get the design vaguely working, and at least $400k in fab costs.

Or you could just buy off the shelf.


Good luck to RISV V though, but it has a LONG way to go to catch up with ARM, despite a few people using it.
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Heater
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Re: PLOT TWIST: Intel considering buying Broadcom

Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:39 pm

Hypothetically speaking, I'm thinking in terms of a small start up or a small division of some company that wants a processor and a bit of their own magic sauce in a chip. Perhaps never anticipating sales in the millions. Perhaps replacing logic or FPGA in some part of some system.

As such your answers are actually offered as reasons why such a operations choose RISC V.

They don't know what the costs will be ahead of time.

That few months negotiation could be a huge junk of the time available for the project.

The money spent on a negotiator would be better spent on actual engineering development time.

The RISC V has been around for some years now. The software support is in place, GCC, Linux, various RTOS. The whole design can be simulated in Verilator or checked out on FPGA.

A GPU is still an issue. Many designs don't need one. Other devices one finds on a typical SoC are available,

The instruction set change does not matter, we work in C/C++, besides any competent assembler programmer would up to speed with RISC V asm in no time.

I think a year is plenty enough time. If EE/CS undergrads can get chips fabbed during their studies a company should be able to do it. Especially if we save the negotiating with ARM step.

I agree though. It may be a long while before RISC V displaces ARM in phones, tabs and the like. If ever.

What about the world of IoT? Billions of processors will be deployed. They need cheap fast development. Already we see things like the ESP8266/ESP32 that don't use an ARM core. RISC V could be huge there.

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Re: PLOT TWIST: Intel considering buying Broadcom

Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:47 pm

BTW there is news that President Trump prohibited (? don't know if that is right word) purchase of Qualcomm by Broadcom...

Can someone explain this sentence:
There is credible evidence that leads me to believe that Broadcom Limited <...> through exercising control of Qualcomm Incorporated (Qualcomm), a Delaware corporation, might take action that threatens to impair the national security of the United States
https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential ... m-limited/

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Re: PLOT TWIST: Intel considering buying Broadcom

Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:29 pm

BTW there is news that President Trump prohibited (? don't know if that is right word) purchase of Qualcomm by Broadcom...
Wait 15 minutes and you'll hear him denying he ever said any such thing.
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Re: PLOT TWIST: Intel considering buying Broadcom

Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:53 pm

So I believe the purpose of this order is to protect american company (Qualcomm) from foreign one (Broadcom). Proposed merging was legal, but President have "credible evidence" that it would have been dangerous.

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Re: PLOT TWIST: Intel considering buying Broadcom

Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:57 pm

It's probably along the same lines that the Americans (all 200m of them) are scared "witless" [that's the polite version of what I was really thinking] about Huawei having a back-door in all of their consumer electronics yet they freely give all their of personal data to Google, Twitter and Facebook.
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Re: PLOT TWIST: Intel considering buying Broadcom

Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:05 pm

jerryrp wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:47 pm
Can someone explain this sentence:
There is credible evidence that leads me to believe that Broadcom Limited <...> through exercising control of Qualcomm Incorporated (Qualcomm), a Delaware corporation, might take action that threatens to impair the national security of the United States
It's basically saying America cannot risk foreign ownership of an American company which may be essential for America's national security.

Would you want a foreign owned company making your bombs and bullets if you were at war with that foreign country ?

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Re: PLOT TWIST: Intel considering buying Broadcom

Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:46 pm

America doesn't really have any kind of foreign policy anymore.

We just have a lunatic shooting off his mouth like he was still on reality TV, and saying something different every 15 minutes.

The funny thing is that big business boosted him into office, but it is now big business that's beginning to bear the brunt of his lunacy (along with the rest of us).
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Re: PLOT TWIST: Intel considering buying Broadcom

Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:14 pm

hippy wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:05 pm
jerryrp wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:47 pm
Can someone explain this sentence:
There is credible evidence that leads me to believe that Broadcom Limited <...> through exercising control of Qualcomm Incorporated (Qualcomm), a Delaware corporation, might take action that threatens to impair the national security of the United States
It's basically saying America cannot risk foreign ownership of an American company which may be essential for America's national security.

Would you want a foreign owned company making your bombs and bullets if you were at war with that foreign country ?
And yet we (UK) are buying Trident and F35's from America...and will be completely reliant on their maintenance support.

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Re: PLOT TWIST: Intel considering buying Broadcom

Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:05 pm

Madness indeed. Dates back to Margaret Thatcher pronouncing that we don't need to manufacture anymore, we can be a "service industry" nation. Thus destroying the UK defence industry, along with others.

<conspiracy theory>
It's a back room deal. Intel wanted to buy Broadcom if the deal with Qualcom fell through. Trumpy made it so.
</conspiracy theory>

<conspiracy theory>
Of course the US does not want the creators of communications infrastructure and devices to fall into the hands of a foreign company. How would the NSA get their back doors in to them then?
</conspiracy theory>

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Re: PLOT TWIST: Intel considering buying Broadcom

Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:10 pm

can we all cool down, and use some saner language in this thread.....

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Re: PLOT TWIST: Intel considering buying Broadcom

Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:25 pm

jamesh wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:14 pm
hippy wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:05 pm
It's basically saying America cannot risk foreign ownership of an American company which may be essential for America's national security.

Would you want a foreign owned company making your bombs and bullets if you were at war with that foreign country ?
And yet we (UK) are buying Trident and F35's from America...and will be completely reliant on their maintenance support.

Mad.
Now...maybe, but go read up on the origin of the Browning machie guns used in RAF planes designed in the 1930s.

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Re: PLOT TWIST: Intel considering buying Broadcom

Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:36 pm

jamesh wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:14 pm
hippy wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:05 pm
Would you want a foreign owned company making your bombs and bullets if you were at war with that foreign country ?
And yet we (UK) are buying Trident and F35's from America...and will be completely reliant on their maintenance support.

Mad.
Which, for F-35's, seemingly has to be done in Turkey. A NATO member admittedly, but our relationship is not without its problems, as Boris Johnson noted in his allegedly witty poem which was quite offensive towards Turkey's leader.

I agree; it does seem madness, that anyone would trust their means of defence to a foreign party. But I guess that is mitigated by the belief that we will never be at war with those providing our defences, would never need to go to war with anyone they were supporting or backing.

Let's hope that is the case but I am not confident it will be. We have a Muslim London Mayor, Muslim MP's, and it's entirely possible we will have a Muslim PM one day. I wouldn't have a problem with that, nor the country if that's what we have voted for, but Trump and many right wingers in America are upset already and would find that simply appalling, or worse. Who knows how that would end up.

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