jahboater
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Re: Asus Tinker board

Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:19 am

jamesh wrote:Raspberry Pi has a great support network, with good reliable software. What's the biggest reason board like this fail?
The Pi has had five years, 12 million sales, and a team of obviously clever engineers. Hard to compete with!
Last edited by jahboater on Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

AntonAV
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Re: Asus Tinker board

Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:21 am

jahboater wrote:doesn't the Odroid-C2 offer more or less similar features? The C2 is 64-bit, has eMMC etc for less money?
I agree with you: the Odroid C2 looks better than this Asus Tinker board. Longer in the market, more users, support and updated distros available.

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Re: Asus Tinker board

Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:27 am

jamesh wrote:Raspberry Pi has a great support network, with good reliable software. What's the biggest reason board like this fail?
Only 1 GB RAM + lower CPU speed + USB 2.0 and 100 MB Ethernet combined on one channel. GPU software still not fully in place. Is this a good investment for the near future for a school (dozens of SBCs)?

jahboater
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Re: Asus Tinker board

Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:43 am

AntonAV wrote:
jamesh wrote:Raspberry Pi has a great support network, with good reliable software. What's the biggest reason board like this fail?
Only 1 GB RAM + lower CPU speed + USB 2.0 and 100 MB Ethernet combined on one channel. GPU software still not fully in place. Is this a good investment for the near future for a school (dozens of SBCs)?
Perhaps you underestimate the value of "great support network, with good reliable software"?
For many, if not most, people it will outweigh the limited hardware. You get the confidence that it definitely will work, or it can definitely be made to work (even if only because millions of other users have done it before).

Raspbian is a rather good Linux distro in its own right which is no mean achievement.

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Re: Asus Tinker board

Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:52 am

Put it like this.

If I want to use a Pi, I download the image, install it and it works, and I can do pretty much any task. If have a problem, I check out the Pi forums and are almost certainly going to find a answer.

If I want to use a <insert other name board here but check the title of the thread> it's not quite so easy. And when its not so easy, what do you do? Who do you call for support? When you pay $50 for something, how much support do you think you might get for that $50 given you have to take out manufacturing costs and profits from that $50 first.
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Re: Asus Tinker board

Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:58 am

AntonAV wrote:
jamesh wrote:Raspberry Pi has a great support network, with good reliable software. What's the biggest reason board like this fail?
Only 1 GB RAM + lower CPU speed + USB 2.0 and 100 MB Ethernet combined on one channel. GPU software still not fully in place. Is this a good investment for the near future for a school (dozens of SBCs)?
Yes, because there are NO alternatives that give anywhere near the advantages of the Pi. What's the point of buying something with a better feature set if in 6 months time there is no support for it. If you kitted out somewhere with a Pi1 5 years ago, you STILL have support.

I counter your assessment that GPU software is not in place. It is. There is a NEW GPU driver in the works, but the existing system works fine.

If you cannot get your program to work in 1GB, try harder (my first computer had 16K, and guess what, I learnt to program on it). I've just upgraded my network at home from 100 to 1Gbit, but the 100 network was in there for 10 years. GBit ethernet is a bonus, but really not necessary. Only USB2? Who cares. Most devices are USB2. USB3 is completely unnecessary in a school.

Nice try at concern trolling, but we have had 5 years and 12M sales to figure out our answers!
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jahboater
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Re: Asus Tinker board

Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:11 am

jamesh wrote: If you cannot get your program to work in 1GB, try harder (my first computer had 16K, and guess what, I learnt to program on it).
16K! Luxury! Mine had only 1K ...

I suspect that many small programs (that the Pi is intended for) need KB, not even MB - of course there are exceptions.

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Re: Asus Tinker board

Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:23 pm

jahboater wrote:
jamesh wrote: If you cannot get your program to work in 1GB, try harder (my first computer had 16K, and guess what, I learnt to program on it).
16K! Luxury! Mine had only 1K ...

I suspect that many small programs (that the Pi is intended for) need KB, not even MB - of course there are exceptions.
Due to a wiring fault my first machine had 256 bytes not the expected 1024 bytes, but it took me a few weeks before I wrote anything long enough to find out !
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jahboater
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Re: Asus Tinker board

Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:50 pm

PeterO wrote:Due to a wiring fault my first machine had 256 bytes not the expected 1024 bytes, but it took me a few weeks before I wrote anything long enough to find out !
PeterO
And the "youth of today" want 2GB ...
People who complain about the Pi should know that the Pi3 (in 64-bit mode anyway) has at least 760 bytes worth of registers available, some of which could be used for extra space with a little ingenuity.

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Re: Asus Tinker board

Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:29 pm

Those very small memory computers and programs didn't have full graphics nor an actual OS to contend with. I first learned to program on an IBM 1620 with 80K digits (approx. 40K bytes) and it had a rudimentary OS. For probably >99% of all Pi uses, 1GB is more than enough. For probably somewhere in the high nineties percent, USB 2 is enough. What people who want more than 1GB or faster than USB 2 are either edge cases (I put my desires for USB 3 in that category), from people who think more is better in all cases, or from people who really don't know how to easily get "good enough" performance out of what we have.

For one of my major uses of the Pi, the original 256MB Model B was adequate. I was planning to convert to B+ Pis solely to get the improved power handling (something that really has made a difference) when the Pi2B came out. Since there was no price difference, I went with the Pi2B. I very specifically have not replaced the Pi2Bs with Pi3Bs because that use really doesn't need the upgrade. If, and only if, there is move towards a main line 64-bit OS will I upgrade in the foreseeable future, and that upgrade would be to the Pi2B2. That use really, really doesn't need more than that.

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Re: Asus Tinker board

Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:30 pm

jamesh wrote:
AntonAV wrote:
jamesh wrote:Raspberry Pi has a great support network, with good reliable software. What's the biggest reason board like this fail?
Only 1 GB RAM + lower CPU speed + USB 2.0 and 100 MB Ethernet combined on one channel. GPU software still not fully in place. Is this a good investment for the near future for a school (dozens of SBCs)?
Yes, because there are NO alternatives that give anywhere near the advantages of the Pi. What's the point of buying something with a better feature set if in 6 months time there is no support for it. If you kitted out somewhere with a Pi1 5 years ago, you STILL have support.

I counter your assessment that GPU software is not in place. It is. There is a NEW GPU driver in the works, but the existing system works fine.

If you cannot get your program to work in 1GB, try harder (my first computer had 16K, and guess what, I learnt to program on it). I've just upgraded my network at home from 100 to 1Gbit, but the 100 network was in there for 10 years. GBit ethernet is a bonus, but really not necessary. Only USB2? Who cares. Most devices are USB2. USB3 is completely unnecessary in a school.

Nice try at concern trolling, but we have had 5 years and 12M sales to figure out our answers!
In a school, like ours then USB2 is fine, only thing that would ever get connected is a keyboard and mice, I cannot see anything else our school would connect to it.

Gigabit Ethernet with PoE would be the only benefit as general transfer for all files (hence no pendrives) profiles, user directories, etc would be that little bit faster and snappier. Of course PoE mean it doesn't take up a plug.
It doesn't make it unusable, given the general speed of the Pi and even though Asus board.

(A note though, as a school we wouldn't consider the Pi3 as it's too slow in general use compared to a good old PC)

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Re: Asus Tinker board

Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:07 pm

bensimmo wrote: In a school, like ours then USB2 is fine, only thing that would ever get connected is a keyboard and mice, I cannot see anything else our school would connect to it.

Gigabit Ethernet with PoE would be the only benefit as general transfer for all files (hence no pendrives) profiles, user directories, etc would be that little bit faster and snappier. Of course PoE mean it doesn't take up a plug.
It doesn't make it unusable, given the general speed of the Pi and even though Asus board.

(A note though, as a school we wouldn't consider the Pi3 as it's too slow in general use compared to a good old PC)
PoE is a whole different kettle of fish... It can be done, but you need an external device to separate off the power leads and drop the voltage to a well regulated 5v.

While the Pi3B is slower than a modern (or near modern), the CPU is certainly fast enough to handle many tasks that could be used in a support role: PxE boot, mass storage server, gateway machine, and so on. For a PxE or MSD use, that is where the limitations of USB 2 are a detriment. Do you really want your MSD limited to 25-30MB/s transfers? When feeding a whole room full of other Pis? While this may not be the optimal approach in your school, as you go down the economic ladder in different countries, a Pi-based server is likely to be increasingly attractive. Assuming constant pricing, a $35 PiXB (for X > 3), a $38 375GB PiDrive is going to look a lot more attractive than anything other than a free PC. Then there is the power usage in the really poor areas...

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Re: Asus Tinker board

Fri Feb 10, 2017 7:16 pm

bensimmo,
...as a school we wouldn't consider the Pi3 as it's too slow in general use compared to a good old PC
No doubt true.

However as far as I understand the whole concept of the Pi was of a very small and very cheap computer that kids could own for themselves and hack on to their hearts content. With no expensive consequences should they happen to destroy it.

Is you school giving PCs to all the pupils to take home?

It's a different "use case", as they like to say now a days.

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Re: Asus Tinker board

Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:00 pm

Guessing that the initial sale was the first batch, and that any pull is possibly a result of unavailability until the next batch,

but my main suspicion is that it needs the KEY feature enabling with driver / software, which is 4K playback.

New image available now, so will try that and see how it goes.

Given other boards based on the same chip have 4K video and other stuff working I don't see it being that hard. Albeit it may be a case of packaging the android driver , which is what i was going to do if I found the time

The launch OS was not ready for release to the public, and in fact not even published on the asus website properly for several days after launch.

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Re: Asus Tinker board

Sat Feb 11, 2017 8:33 am

Heater wrote:bensimmo,
...as a school we wouldn't consider the Pi3 as it's too slow in general use compared to a good old PC
No doubt true.

However as far as I understand the whole concept of the Pi was of a very small and very cheap computer that kids could own for themselves and hack on to their hearts content. With no expensive consequences should they happen to destroy it.

Is you school giving PCs to all the pupils to take home?

It's a different "use case", as they like to say now a days.
No they buy them themselves, pretty much a requirement for modern senior UK schooling. Or they can use the schools or libraries. Luckily this is the UK so computers shouldn't be to far from anyone to use.
They're not exactly expensive, given you can get them for a similar price to mobile phones and pads, be it second hand.

For other countries though where power is a concern then the Pi probably works well. They still need a monitor which is the largest power draw.

But no school in the UK should be poor enough not to be able to buy some modern PC comouter setup, if they are then something is wrong.

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Re: Asus Tinker board

Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:16 am

AntonAV,

Never mind "raw nerve". Coming to a suppliers forum and suggesting that their product may not be a "...good investment for the near future for a school" could be considered bad form.

You are of course free to buy into whatever product line you like. I would suggest though that if you need support over years the Pi is about the only way to go. I'm not ready to trust that any other "PI like" machines will be available for so long in a backward compatible, trouble free manner.

I'm a bit taken aback that kids today are expected to be watching so much video in school now a days.

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Re: Asus Tinker board

Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:03 am

Video on schools would be learning material.
It helps 'enhance the learning experience'.

For a lot of kids it is the natural way to learn, just as reading books would have been if that was the technology of the day.
Last edited by bensimmo on Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Asus Tinker board

Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:28 am

Sure video can be a learning material.

Phrases like "enhance the learning experience" sound like some marketing drivel. I suspect it can be a useful supplement, even back in the day we occasionally watched educational documentaries. You know, using 16mm film projectors. Useful for getting to see things we might not normally see.

But really, back in the day we had teachers. They offered the best learning experience. They imparted enthusiasm. They answered questions. They discussed and help you when you got stuck. We did really experiments in science classes. Used real machines in metal shop.

It's natural for kids to use video today of course. Nobody ever taught them to read and write :)

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Re: Asus Tinker board

Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:04 pm

Hmmm...you are reviving old memories re. video in education. As a young teenager in the mid 1970's I would often be up very early on Saturday and/or Sunday to watch the Open University shows on BBC 2 TV. I was totally enthralled by all those physics, maths, etc lectures. A lot of it over my head but I was glued to it. Could not wait to get out of my school and into a university and do that for real.

I was mesmerized by Professor Mike Pentz. Who I now find was a lot more famous than I ever imagined:

Inventing ways of teaching: http://www.open.ac.uk/library/digital-a ... Asci_clipA
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/peopl ... 21848.html

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Re: Asus Tinker board

Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:18 pm

And that's where video helps, it can show and demonstrate things you could not do, teachers cannot describe and keeps the costs down.

But when there are videos, where experts may have made them in whatever subject, on demand at the click of a button and you can stop and jump back and play in slow motion etc.
Even compared to all the DVDs that I made from all the old VHS tapes, where they are just used as an example but are not up to date and from the 70/80/90s.
Video is use a lot now.

My son for example watches them to see how things work.
I prefer to read as I can skim a reading page much quicker and get annoyed with slow waffly videos.


Oh and Teachers are not cheap* and there is a lack of them. Given what they are paid (compared to what they could earn) and what they have to do, it's more a lifestyle choice.

And of course if your in places where Pi's may be used, there is a good chance Teachers are scarce and skilled subject specific teachers or rare, hence Video becomes an even greater tool.

*Not cheap compared to everyone else and other methods in the school.

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Re: Asus Tinker board

Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:42 pm

AntonAV wrote:
jamesh wrote: Nice try at concern trolling, but we have had 5 years and 12M sales to figure out our answers!
Trolling? Why so defensive; did I hit a raw nerve? I write from the perspective of primary and middle schools, where we have to justify buying into a product line for the next couple of years. Schools are quite different from your present clientele of mainly private hobbyists, enthusiasts, nerds etc. regarding sales.

At present we have clusters of 4 kids sharing ~4 GB RAM on a PC with individual terminals but all 4 can see different Youtubes =<360p smoothly plus access all Flash using sites: 4 Pi 3Bs would still give us 4 GB only to share. Look at modern mobile phones: 1 GB RAM is history: 2, 3 & 4 GB is 2017. We don need that much of real estate, but have to plan for future requirements. For us the Web browsing (including video =< 480p) experience is paramount with any hard and software combo. Raspbian Pixel + Chromium on 1GB today is close, but will that do in 2019? Should we wait to buy RP4 in 2018 or go for Odroid C2 before?
No, no raw nerves, just amazement that people think the way you do, when so much evidence out there points in a different direction. Especially when you come on the Raspberry Pi forum, paid for by the Raspberry Pi foundation (who also pay a lot in to schools and open source), then make dubious claims. I'm pretty sure that's the definition of trolling...

I am a governor at a primary school, and also spent some time on Friday training some trainee teachers, so do have some experience in the area btw.

If you are recommending a school buy things like ODROID, or other SBC's above the Pi, then you need your head examined. ODROID as you know it now won't even exist in 2 years time. Their support is minimal and there is little consistency between products. With RPF product you are pretty much guaranteed support and solid upgrades paths for the next 5 years at least.

Just check out the resources available from the RPF, then point me at anything similar from the likes of ODROID. Then point out how much money ODROID etc have pushed back into education. Then explain why you think 1GB is not enough - is is enough. It's attitudes like that that cause code bloat and almost always comes from people who do not understand enough about the subject. People who say 'well phones have more RAM than that' have fallen into the trap that more equals better - IT'S MARKETING! They just want you to buy the next shiny. For most use cases, 1GB is vastly more than needed, and it's not likely to change. Learning how to program, especially on small devices like the Pi, does not require large amounts of memory.

Just so you know, a Pi is capable of playing YouTube videos up to 720p I believe in the browser, or 1080p otherwise. So are actually a cheaper option than your 4GB machines.

Finally, we try and keep it polite here, and jibes at other forum members are not acceptable. So please don't do it.
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AntonAV
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Re: Asus Tinker board

Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:41 pm

jamesh wrote:If you are recommending a school buy things like ODROID, or other SBC's above the Pi, then you need your head examined. education. Then explain why you think 1GB is not enough - is is enough.

Finally, we try and keep it polite here, and jibes at other forum members are not acceptable. So please don't do it.
I did not recommend or claim anything, I was just pondering aloud regarding various SBCs. The =>1 GB need comes due to Chromium and similar software in say 2020(?), not as a need for programming space. Did anybody miss the hard/software bloating the last decades in the Intel/Microsoft PC world?

I like to keep thing nice too so do not start impoliteness myself, but do reply in kind. I also though that humor was an English invention, and all those smilies next to the input screen here keep me fooled.
Last edited by AntonAV on Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Asus Tinker board

Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:02 pm

bensimmo wrote:For a lot of kids it is the natural way to learn, just as reading books would have been if that was the technology of the day.
Yes, the video is the natural way for the tykes to learn just like reading books would have been had they been literate.

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Re: Asus Tinker board

Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:46 am

AntonAV,
Suppliers forum? Sounds like any business.
Yep.

Why not? Money has to come from somewhere.
I was under the impression this whole undertaking was run by an idealistic Foundation with to goal to promote education around the globe.
Nope.

The original idea was to inspire more kids to apply for CS courses at Cambridge university. Things have expanded since then.

khanacademy is great stuff.

But why would any kid be watching that boring stuff without some curiosity instilled by people around?

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Re: Asus Tinker board

Sun Feb 12, 2017 3:03 am

Heater wrote:AntonAV,
Suppliers forum? Sounds like any business.
Yep.
Why not? Money has to come from somewhere.
I was under the impression this whole undertaking was run by an idealistic Foundation with to goal to promote education around the globe.
Nope.
The original idea was to inspire more kids to apply for CS courses at Cambridge university. Things have expanded since then.

khanacademy is great stuff.
But why would any kid be watching that boring stuff without some curiosity instilled by people around?
Thanks for clearing up that the RPI Foundation is a commercial enterprise: had me fooled for a while with the nerds on this forum mixed up with all newbees. I that case why allow some of the former to chase away potential new customers with disdaining replies?

I have already written that we use Khan academy as a supplement to teacher-students interactions: once you have juggled with 10 different levels in one group you´ll understand the benefit of have ¨slower"and faster students continuing on their own pace on a terminal with Khan for half the period.

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