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Re: IBM's world record: 330TB uncompressed data on a palm-sized tape cartridge

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:32 am
by DougieLawson
So are we all going to have to move from spinny things to stretchy things, now?

Re: IBM's world record: 330TB uncompressed data on a palm-sized tape cartridge

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:52 am
by bensimmo
What's the 4k random access like?

Re: IBM's world record: 330TB uncompressed data on a palm-sized tape cartridge

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:10 am
by stubright
bensimmo wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:52 am
What's the 4k random access like?
That depends how fast you are
https://youtu.be/yk8v9Ijp1So

Re: IBM's world record: 330TB uncompressed data on a palm-sized tape cartridge

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:29 am
by Koeshi
DougieLawson wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:32 am
So are we all going to have to move from spinny things to stretchy things, now?
Unless the cost of tape readers drops significantly I doubt it :P

Re: IBM's world record: 330TB uncompressed data on a palm-sized tape cartridge

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:19 pm
by W. H. Heydt
DougieLawson wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:32 am
So are we all going to have to move from spinny things to stretchy things, now?
IBM *did* have a "Tape Operating System" (TOS, mostly for banks) back in the mid-1960s. IIRC, it took a minimum of 3 tape drives. Also, it didn't support disk drives...if you had disks you used the "Disk Operating System" (DOS), or even "Operating System 360" (OS).

Re: IBM's world record: 330TB uncompressed data on a palm-sized tape cartridge

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:39 pm
by rpdom
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:19 pm
IBM *did* have a "Tape Operating System" (TOS, mostly for banks) back in the mid-1960s.
Seagate did have a Tape Filing System with random access tapes. I used it on a Windows 98 PC with a 2GB DAT drive. It wasn't great, random access was up to 30 seconds. I still have a few old tape drives around (DLT7000 autochanger and DDS-4 drives), but haven't used them in years.

Re: IBM's world record: 330TB uncompressed data on a palm-sized tape cartridge

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:08 pm
by Imperf3kt
So 201GB per square inch is supposed to be impressive?
We have microSD cards that are less than half that size and store more...


I suppose its a question of longevity.

Re: IBM's world record: 330TB uncompressed data on a palm-sized tape cartridge

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:28 pm
by jahboater
rpdom wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:39 pm
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:19 pm
IBM *did* have a "Tape Operating System" (TOS, mostly for banks) back in the mid-1960s.
Seagate did have a Tape Filing System with random access tapes. I used it on a Windows 98 PC with a 2GB DAT drive. It wasn't great, random access was up to 30 seconds. I still have a few old tape drives around (DLT7000 autochanger and DDS-4 drives), but haven't used them in years.
I believe TOS in this case refers to a complete operating system running off tape drives, rather than just a filing system.

Re: IBM's world record: 330TB uncompressed data on a palm-sized tape cartridge

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:33 am
by W. H. Heydt
jahboater wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:28 pm
rpdom wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:39 pm
W. H. Heydt wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:19 pm
IBM *did* have a "Tape Operating System" (TOS, mostly for banks) back in the mid-1960s.
Seagate did have a Tape Filing System with random access tapes. I used it on a Windows 98 PC with a 2GB DAT drive. It wasn't great, random access was up to 30 seconds. I still have a few old tape drives around (DLT7000 autochanger and DDS-4 drives), but haven't used them in years.
I believe TOS in this case refers to a complete operating system running off tape drives, rather than just a filing system.
Correct.

Re: IBM's world record: 330TB uncompressed data on a palm-sized tape cartridge

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:49 am
by rpdom
jahboater wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:28 pm
]I believe TOS in this case refers to a complete operating system running off tape drives, rather than just a filing system.
Yes, I understand that. I've used mainframes that booted from tape and could run simple stuff using just tape drives without using their disks, but it was slow.

Re: IBM's world record: 330TB uncompressed data on a palm-sized tape cartridge

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:23 am
by DougieLawson
rpdom wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:49 am
jahboater wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:28 pm
]I believe TOS in this case refers to a complete operating system running off tape drives, rather than just a filing system.
Yes, I understand that. I've used mainframes that booted from tape and could run simple stuff using just tape drives without using their disks, but it was slow.
You must be quite a bit older than me. The first mainframes (S/370-168 & 3033) I worked with had lots of 3330-1, 3330-2 and 3350 hard drives and ran OS/VS2 MVS with JES3. IPL was from disk.

Re: IBM's world record: 330TB uncompressed data on a palm-sized tape cartridge

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:15 pm
by W. H. Heydt
DougieLawson wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:23 am
rpdom wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:49 am
jahboater wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:28 pm
]I believe TOS in this case refers to a complete operating system running off tape drives, rather than just a filing system.
Yes, I understand that. I've used mainframes that booted from tape and could run simple stuff using just tape drives without using their disks, but it was slow.
You must be quite a bit older than me. The first mainframes (S/370-168 & 3033) I worked with had lots of 3330-1, 3330-2 and 3350 hard drives and ran OS/VS2 MVS with JES3. IPL was from disk.
TOS ran on S/360 systems. By the time the S/370s came along, TOS was long gone. As I noted, TOS didn't support disk drives--at all. If you had disk drives, even 2311s, you ran DOS or (on larger systems), OS. There was one single task version of OS that would boot on a 96K machine with enough space to have a single 16K partition. You could start the reader, stop it, run the program. then start the writer to get any output. But that all predated OS/MFT and OS/MVT. OS/VS2 was, IIRC, derived from OS/MVT. It's been rather a while since I dealt with any of them...

Re: IBM's world record: 330TB uncompressed data on a palm-sized tape cartridge

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:52 pm
by rpdom
DougieLawson wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:23 am
You must be quite a bit older than me. The first mainframes (S/370-168 & 3033) I worked with had lots of 3330-1, 3330-2 and 3350 hard drives and ran OS/VS2 MVS with JES3. IPL was from disk.
Nope, I'm a few month younger, IIRC.

We didn't do any serious work with only tape. When I started the IPL was from cards, which really only loaded a few details about where the tape drives where and which drive to use for each of the boot tapes. Later we dropped the cards and the boot drive was selected by switches and eventually we moved to boot from disk.

Re: IBM's world record: 330TB uncompressed data on a palm-sized tape cartridge

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:19 pm
by DougieLawson
Maybe I was spoiled by working for a large commercial bank.

Re: IBM's world record: 330TB uncompressed data on a palm-sized tape cartridge

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:56 am
by jardino
I have a question about IBM tape drives of the period around 1965 or so: were they able to read in reverse?

The reason I ask is that my introduction to the computer industry was factory-commissioning Honeywell 204 series drives, which could read in reverse. I was told that this was a "killer" feature that IBM drives didn't have, but I've been wondering about it ever since.

(I know - I should get out more ...)

Alan.

Re: IBM's world record: 330TB uncompressed data on a palm-sized tape cartridge

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:42 am
by DougieLawson
Since I was only two years old in 1965 I can't comment. The tape drives I operated most often were 3420s
https://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhi ... _3420.html

There was one 3420 "Bandlaufwerk" we got second-hand that had green doors (not IBM Blue) and German legends on all the buttons. Some of the folks couldn't load/ready tapes on that drive because they couldn't read German.