jamesh
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Re: Snarky non-responses to questions

Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:22 pm

321 wrote:
jamesh wrote: Sometimes, to answer a question on here, I have to Google for the answer. At that point, I think to myself, why didn't the OP do that?

The point is - Google for the answer to your question - this is an essential skill nowadays in many occupations - the amount of stuff you need to know to do software development for example is too large for the average brain to contain without something else falling out. If Google fails to find an answer, ask a question in the appropriate place.

Note: There are other search engines, I happen to use Google.
Filter bubbles may extend beyond your political bias.
http://www.ted.com/talks/eli_pariser_be ... er_bubbles

And if its true, nothing stopping hackers pushing up the results of a flawed solution in search engine results, from a myriad of botnots if some news reports are to be believed?
?
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321
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Re: Snarky non-responses to questions

Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:54 pm

Heater wrote:321,
Something like 80% of communication is just body language,
Yeah right.

All those years listening to parents, teachers, lecturers, etc was all a waste of time. They could have just mimed it all !
Not mimed, but heres an example.
Some one says, jump off the cliff with a grin on their face, how do you interpret the instruction? A joke perhaps that you know to ignore, because you recognise the same grin that breaks out on your face when playing a joker?
Some one says, jump off the cliff with an angry/serious face in a uniform that holds a psychological position of authority over your general conciousness, especially military uniforms, then you would probably do it.

Same instruction, but different body language, helped along with a uniform.

Ergo, perhaps you discounted the significance the of the body language employed by the parents, teachers, lecturers etc, teaching in a calm and collected manner, not letting their negative emotions (anger) get in the way which can raise stress levels and hinder learning in some circumstances. Perhaps teachers could be more effective at certain age's if they wore a uniform?

Some people learn somethings more from experience than being dictated too, others learn somethings more from being dictated to than from experience. Within those two domains, ie dictated to and experience, you can break that down to into:
dictated to, could mean, being spoken to & reading
experience, could mean, finding parallels already experienced, and doing an experiment.

Identify what "somethings" can be as well would be useful.

And having done all that, just because it can be recalled, perhaps even rehashed to appear to give a reasonable informed answer, doesnt mean its really sunk in.

Plus if concentrating on something(s), doesnt mean something previously taught will come to the fore of consciousness when needed/expected by the parents, teachers, lecturers etc.

Case in point being, driving to work, the act of driving becomes so engrained it becomes an autonomous function especially when its highly routine, statistically more accidents happen in this situation and other short journeys to/from the home, so I could argue some laws obeying speed and other rules cause more accidents because it causes the routine, which kind of defeats the object of the rules in the first place, if their intention is to provide safety to all around?

This is in part backed up by experiements where road markings have been removed and pedestrians have right of way, in some towns/cities in Europe where accident levels have fallen. Of course in time, think maybe decades, it might have to resort back to lines on roads and rules as people get need change to keep them alert.


Naturally its complex. <--- Now how do you interpret that? You cant see my face, so you dont ultimately know the intention behind that statement. Just how much do you read into things? When should we read more into things and other times just take the literal meaning?

I sometimes think an AI would be an excellent teacher, certainly from the logic point of view I think it would be, but due to its limits of not having emotion generated by chemicals, I wonder if these emotions could be emulated/modeled sufficiently and if so, would it have a better idea of humans in general, in order to be a good teacher, on hand to guide when needed. I sometimes see examples of computers preventing some actions online that could be interpreted as such, but I also cant help but think maybe its just human operated.
Last edited by 321 on Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

321
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Re: Snarky non-responses to questions

Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:01 pm

jamesh wrote:
321 wrote:
jamesh wrote: Sometimes, to answer a question on here, I have to Google for the answer. At that point, I think to myself, why didn't the OP do that?

The point is - Google for the answer to your question - this is an essential skill nowadays in many occupations - the amount of stuff you need to know to do software development for example is too large for the average brain to contain without something else falling out. If Google fails to find an answer, ask a question in the appropriate place.

Note: There are other search engines, I happen to use Google.
Filter bubbles may extend beyond your political bias.
http://www.ted.com/talks/eli_pariser_be ... er_bubbles

And if its true, nothing stopping hackers pushing up the results of a flawed solution in search engine results, from a myriad of botnots if some news reports are to be believed?
?
Search engines primarily work on whats popular, ie the most popular results get to the top of the list, so if you can associate an error message typed into a search phrase with a website, where a malicious answer exists, and its crafted in such a way as to not make obvious or distract your critical thinking like a magician can, then you can get someone employing the wrong answer, which compromises their system. The very fact they have used a search engine or even a forum such as this hints that the user maybe exploitable.

It depends on what other knowledge they might have which can help them decide if its the right answer or not.

Trust is hard to quantify, just who do you trust and why? Only your Ego can decide in many ways.

mfa298
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Re: Snarky non-responses to questions

Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:04 pm

Heater wrote:321,
Something like 80% of communication is just body language,
Yeah right.

All those years listening to parents, teachers, lecturers, etc was all a waste of time. They could have just mimed it all !
I don't know if it's 80%, but a lot of meaning (and that is part of communication) is added by body language, expressions, even tone of voice. All of which don't come over when talking on an internet forum.

There are also those who struggle to understand many of those meanings when talking in person.

jamesh
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Re: Snarky non-responses to questions

Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:09 pm

321 wrote:
jamesh wrote:
321 wrote: Filter bubbles may extend beyond your political bias.
http://www.ted.com/talks/eli_pariser_be ... er_bubbles

And if its true, nothing stopping hackers pushing up the results of a flawed solution in search engine results, from a myriad of botnots if some news reports are to be believed?
?
Search engines primarily work on whats popular, ie the most popular results get to the top of the list, so if you can associate an error message typed into a search phrase with a website, where a malicious answer exists, and its crafted in such a way as to not make obvious or distract your critical thinking like a magician can, then you can get someone employing the wrong answer, which compromises their system. The very fact they have used a search engine or even a forum such as this hints that the user maybe exploitable.

It depends on what other knowledge they might have which can help them decide if its the right answer or not.

Trust is hard to quantify, just who do you trust and why? Only your Ego can decide in many ways.
Well, yes, but what has that got to do with this thread? My suspicion is that hackers are not going to be trying to get fake Raspi instructions to the top of google searches. It simply not worth their time.
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Re: Snarky non-responses to questions

Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:46 pm

I suppose I'm one of the Grumpy Old Farts, that had to learn the old way , Seeing some of the post's and answers
I'm glade I learnt the old way. When they Google for a answers to a problem,they don't understand what they are reading.
The reason for this is they are not prepared to learn the very basics of hardware. They are only interested in Software
When thy have learnt all about programing they think it will solve all problems , Some times when you say use a
Transistor they loose interest and you hear no more from them. One point some times we don't know the age of the
Person we are trying to help, knowing that would be a lot of help.

Regards BoyOh, Learnt the old way ,Before plug & play
BoyOh ( Selby, North Yorkshire.UK)
Some Times Right Some Times Wrong

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Re: Snarky non-responses to questions

Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:59 pm

321,

You don't have to spell it out.

I know full well that a lot of non-language, non-verbal, non-literal information is carried in face to face communication. In facial expression, in body language, in style of dress, in the hand shake, etc.

A simple "FU" from a guy you meet in a bar could be a joke, a friendly disagreement, or an invitation to a fight to the death.

So far I have managed to travel the world, and pick up the "vibe" well enough not to be killed. Although sometimes it has been close.

Yes, I am aware of the experiments the psychologists have done that demonstrate that people will more likely do what perceived figures of authority tell them.

Also, I'm aware of the weird driving phenomena. Sometimes you arrive at a destination and realize you have no memory of driving to there. You have been busy thinking about something else. God knows what happens if you had an accident along the way. Your recollection of events would be minimal.

For this reason it is better to drive as fast as possible. Keeps your mind concentrated on the job at hand.

As for teachers and negativity. I owe my life to the one teacher in my school who would dare to complain about things in the school to us. He was the only one that talked to us pupils as human beings. He told me straight "The best thing you can do is get out of here as soon as possible".

And still, I dispute the 80% claim. Nobody taught me Pythagoras theorem or calculus through body language alone.
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Re: Snarky non-responses to questions

Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:05 pm

boyoh wrote: One point some times we don't know the age of the
Person we are trying to help, knowing that would be a lot of help.
Regards BoyOh, Learnt the old way ,Before plug & play
I agree with that statement the age of the person can have a big affect on how the react to what's said in posts, another problem some times it the posters native language, having helped several people on the forum who's first language is not English it can be difficult to understand what they are trying to say and just as difficult for me to make it clear what I am to convey to them, A lot can get lost or misunderstood in translation. it would be helpful if people updated their profile to show were they are from.
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Re: Snarky non-responses to questions

Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:07 pm

jamesh wrote:My suspicion is that hackers are not going to be trying to get fake Raspi instructions to the top of google searches. It simply not worth their time.
Wow! You've just given me an idea for a fabulous new social engineering project! :mrgreen:

Where to start? Hmm, maybe...
• "Overclocking your Raspberry Pi with kerosene!"
• "Run Overwatch on a $5 Raspberry Pi with this one weird trick!"
• "Five Raspberry Pi's contain golden tickets for a free lifetime supply of Willy Wonka chocolate printed in the middle layer of the circuit board - break your's open to see if you're a winner!"
• "Raspberry Pi runs faster directly wired to 120VAC - follow these simple instructions!"

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Re: Snarky non-responses to questions

Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:19 pm

boyoh,

Nothing has changed.

As a young kid my young friends would come to visit. They would get the TV on and be happy watching George Best in a football match.

I would be saying, "Hey guys, this is boring, can we do something interesting". You can guess how that worked out for my social life.

I conclude that there is only a fraction of a percent of humans that have the curiosity to ask themselves "how does that work?" when they turn on the TV, fire up a computer, hit the light switch, or whatever. Also it's almost impossible to spark such curiosity in those that don't have it.

Luckily the human population is now huge. So that fraction of a percent is quite many.

We need them to keep the place running :)
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Re: Snarky non-responses to questions

Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:34 pm

CarlRJ wrote:
jamesh wrote:My suspicion is that hackers are not going to be trying to get fake Raspi instructions to the top of google searches. It simply not worth their time.
Wow! You've just given me an idea for a fabulous new social engineering project! :mrgreen:

Where to start? Hmm, maybe...
• "Overclocking your Raspberry Pi with kerosene!"
• "Run Overwatch on a $5 Raspberry Pi with this one weird trick!"
• "Five Raspberry Pi's contain golden tickets for a free lifetime supply of Willy Wonka chocolate printed in the middle layer of the circuit board - break your's open to see if you're a winner!"
• "Raspberry Pi runs faster directly wired to 120VAC - follow these simple instructions!"
It looks like someone has beaten you to it: viewtopic.php?f=63&t=176837.
Only I have a feeling it might be genuine, despite appearances.
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Re: Snarky non-responses to questions

Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:10 pm

CarlRJ wrote:
jamesh wrote:My suspicion is that hackers are not going to be trying to get fake Raspi instructions to the top of google searches. It simply not worth their time.
Wow! You've just given me an idea for a fabulous new social engineering project! :mrgreen:

Where to start? Hmm, maybe...
• "Overclocking your Raspberry Pi with kerosene!"
• "Run Overwatch on a $5 Raspberry Pi with this one weird trick!"
• "Five Raspberry Pi's contain golden tickets for a free lifetime supply of Willy Wonka chocolate printed in the middle layer of the circuit board - break your's open to see if you're a winner!"
• "Raspberry Pi runs faster directly wired to 120VAC - follow these simple instructions!"
Suggest that to some Uni Students/Technicians and you never know what might happen. I'm reminded of this rather old post http://totl.net/Eunuch/index.html

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Re: Snarky non-responses to questions

Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:06 pm

jamesh wrote: Well, yes, but what has that got to do with this thread? My suspicion is that hackers are not going to be trying to get fake Raspi instructions to the top of google searches. It simply not worth their time.
Hackers don't need to, there's enough outdated wheezy stuff that comes up on google search to confuse many new learners.

And googling isn't the answer for somebody who is looking to engage experts and start a dialogue to clarify details and feel like they are getting involved in the community.

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Re: Snarky non-responses to questions

Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:33 pm

Heater wrote:Also, I'm aware of the weird driving phenomena. Sometimes you arrive at a destination and realize you have no memory of driving to there. You have been busy thinking about something else. God knows what happens if you had an accident along the way. Your recollection of events would be minimal.
Absolutely. I was solo on the M4 in a typical packed stream of fast moving evening traffic, shall we say doing 70mph. Next thing I know we are all stationary, all 1" from the bumper of the vehicle in front of us. Never have figured that one out, how there wasn't a single contact, who put the handbrake on. The subconscious auto-pilot is amazing.

But not as bad as becoming aware again before arriving at one's destination. Having to figure out where the heck you are. Are you on the M4 or the M1, before the turn-off, or have you taken it, how long ago do you last remember ?
Heater wrote:For this reason it is better to drive as fast as possible. Keeps your mind concentrated on the job at hand.
Only if the environment keeps you alert. A busy packed motorway with everyone at speed feels stationary. As above, it is easy to zone-out even at speed.

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Re: Snarky non-responses to questions

Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:32 am

When they Google for a answers to a problem,they don't understand what they are reading.
When I google for an answer and find myself in the top ten asking for help then I know I have some hard work to do :lol:
Very hard to google if you don't look for the right thing and that requires context and some knowledge.

The more I learn the less I find I know so I end up googling more, especially when it is about these silly little things called Pi's.
Just when I thought electronics was getting boring the Pi's came out.
Sometimes not sure whether to curse Eben or thank him because my grumpy old man brain now has stretch marks :lol:

Do we get snarky because someone is looking for an easy out?

Also, I'm aware of the weird driving phenomena. Sometimes you arrive at a destination and realize you have no memory of driving to there. You have been busy thinking about something else. God knows what happens if you had an accident along the way. Your recollection of events would be minimal.
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Re: Snarky non-responses to questions

Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:37 am

Whoops hit wrong button
Also, I'm aware of the weird driving phenomena. Sometimes you arrive at a destination and realize you have no memory of driving to there. You have been busy thinking about something else. God knows what happens if you had an accident along the way. Your recollection of events would be minimal.
That's why I don't commute normal hours, off peak I am on cruise control with brain relaxing music on the CD.
No need to watch the traffic when there is none, this puts my brain into intuitive problem solving mode.
Lost count of the number of work problems solved this way on the way to and from work.
CD player is old and temperamental now so less problems solved :(
Really, who can think when all that's on is talk back radio?
Wonder if work will pay for new CD player?
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321
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Re: Snarky non-responses to questions

Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:11 am

Heater wrote: You don't have to spell it out.
I dont know what you know, nor do I know what other readers know, so starting from what I perceive rightly or wrong, is none the less a valid starting point in order to be clear and concise whilst attempting to avoid ambiguity. Would that seem fair?

For this reason it is better to drive as fast as possible. Keeps your mind concentrated on the job at hand.
It seems the police and govt dont agree with this point of view, however the avg car length is + or - about 30mph when using a laser speed measuring device, and just how does an algo know where it got its reflection from? Can you tag light reflections like you can tag ethernet packets for a vlan?
As for teachers and negativity. I owe my life to the one teacher in my school who would dare to complain about things in the school to us. He was the only one that talked to us pupils as human beings. He told me straight "The best thing you can do is get out of here as soon as possible".
I found in general the older male teachers commanded more respect & authority from me, from primary school upwards. I could push many teachers buttons which undermined their authority, something the younger teachers naturally dont have due to their immature ego's. A bit like inexperienced programmers dont know enough to know they are over charging, and experienced programmers know enough to undersell themselves.
And still, I dispute the 80% claim. Nobody taught me Pythagoras theorem or calculus through body language alone.
Who taught Pythagorus?

Now I know what it says on wiki, but who ever first taught the theorem, who taught them?

Same goes for calculus, who taught the first person who taught calculus?

Are you being observant or is that a trick question? ;-)

Still do you need to know calculus if you know how to program?

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Re: Snarky non-responses to questions

Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:14 am

Me,
Also, I'm aware of the weird driving phenomena. Sometimes you arrive at a destination and realize you have no memory of driving to there. You have been busy thinking about something else. God knows what happens if you had an accident along the way. Your recollection of events would be minimal.
Wow, people like to quote me a lot for some odd reason. But I don't think I have ever been quoted so much in a single thread.

I must have stuck a chord among drivers.

Given how inattentive we all are, perhaps these new fangled self driving vehicles cannot do worse!

Now, I did say it was better to drive as fast as possible.

Someone said something about keeping up with the traffic flow at 70mph.

Which I know can be as boring as watching paint dry when you are going with the flow for a long time.

No, I meant as fast as possible. Such that you know you are going to die at any moment if you mess up or anything goes wrong.

Perhaps they made cars and motorways too bland.

Of course most casualties and deaths don't happen on motorways. They happen on the city streets outside our homes.

Which have also been made to easy and bland for car drivers.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Re: Snarky non-responses to questions

Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:23 am

Gavinmc42 wrote:Whoops hit wrong button

That's why I don't commute normal hours, off peak I am on cruise control with brain relaxing music on the CD.
No need to watch the traffic when there is none, this puts my brain into intuitive problem solving mode.
Walking and talking I find useful, along with sleeping on it.

When driving, I find myself being too competative sometimes too aggressive if I'm not on cruise control, as its not unlike strapping on a suit of armour before going into battle constantly being shown a red rag to a bull with all the brake lights winking on and off in front of you.

When on cruise control even in heavy traffic, I find I drive better by constantly tweaking the cruise speed using the two buttons on the stalk as it forces me to look further ahead than I would perhaps normally do, whilst also maintaining more of a gap with the car in front (not that I normally tailgate anyway) as I try to see how I can far I can travel without touching the brakes. 600miles out of a 55litre fuel tank aint bad I dont think.

In a way, those two little cruise control buttons are like my games controller, in my own VR like world. :-)

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Re: Snarky non-responses to questions

Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:53 am

321,
I dont know what you know, nor do I know what other readers know, so starting from what I perceive rightly or wrong, is none the less a valid starting point in order to be clear and concise whilst attempting to avoid ambiguity. Would that seem fair?
Perfectly fair.

You were quoting me at the time so I had to reply to such a direct communication.
It seems the police and govt dont agree with this point of view, however the avg car length is + or - about 30mph when using a laser speed measuring device, and just how does an algo know where it got its reflection from? Can you tag light reflections like you can tag ethernet packets for a vlan?
Surely the law does not agree. I like to think they mean well.

I'm not sure about lasers, but good old radar speed traps did not depend on where they got a reflection from. They depended on Doppler shift. And that depends on speed.

I have no idea about what goes on in schools and with teachers today. In my time teachers got respect, male or female, from the pupils and the pupils parents.
Who taught Pythagorus?

Now I know what it says on wiki, but who ever first taught the theorem, who taught them?

Same goes for calculus, who taught the first person who taught calculus?
What kind of nonsense are you talking?

In the billion or so years that life has been evolving on Earth, from a chemical soup, to amino acids, to single cell organisms, to fishes and apes and humanids, there was no triangles or Pythagoras theorem or calculus.

Somebody had to have those ideas at some time. There was nobody to teach them it because the idea did not exist before.

We know little of Pythagoras. If he existed at all. But somebody first got that idea.

Calculus can be traced back to Archimedes. Except his work was lost for a long time.

That left it to Newton and Leibnitz to discover calculus again for themselves.

Are you really suggesting that everything humans know has always been known, some how, and it just has to be passed on from generation to generation?

Are your really suggesting that humans, today here and now, cannot have ideas that no human has had before?

Surely you are mistaken.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Gavinmc42
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Re: Snarky non-responses to questions

Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:35 am

Calculus can be traced back to Archimedes. Except his work was lost for a long time.
That left it to Newton and Leibnitz to discover calculus again for themselves.
Very strange, I just read that last night.

Ditto the cruise control buttons.
I like to think I am preforming a public service duty by staying in the fast lane on cruise just a fraction above the speed limit.
This stops speeders from crashing etc. I am saving their lives.
Now the Nanny state says I must keep over and stay out of that lane unless over taking or I will be booked.

Rush hour car park? I need to go hybrid or electric?
Bumper to bumper averaging 20kph to get to work the same time as everyone else?
Hmm, doing that everyday might turn people snarky :lol:

Never hacked a police radar/laser, surely they use Pythagoras to determine angular road speed and not the speed to the laser.
How do you know the angle the laser gun is at?
Lots of constantly changing angles involved unless it is in a police car directly following.

In my day teachers got respect at the end of a ruler or thrown duster.
Staying back and writing on blackboard "I must not talk in class. I must not talk in class. I must not talk in class. I must not talk in class...."

I feel sorry for teachers these days, does not help that I married one and we now have a school kid.
Even my wife says there is not enough male teachers, male role models are vanishing.
Are your really suggesting that humans, today here and now, cannot have ideas that no human has had before?
Did I read a theory that males are better at maths because we are survivors of spear throwers who understood the effects of gravity and kinetic energy?
Are you really suggesting that everything humans know has always been known, some how, and it just has to be passed on from generation to generation?
We would not be here if previous generations had not known enough to survive long enough to procreate :D
Is knowing YouTube going to be enough for this generation to figure out how to make the next one?
Maybe they could google it?
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Heater
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Re: Snarky non-responses to questions

Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:38 am

Gavinmc42,
Did I read a theory that males are better at maths because we are survivors of spear throwers...
Perhaps you did.

I don't believe a word of it.

Consistently, in my school, in technical college, in university, the best in maths were girls.

Or, to turn your argument around, those nubile ice skaters than can spin around at a 100 rpm on one toe, know more about physics than I did after 4 years of theoretical study.

And, radars don't care about Pythagoras. They can measure speed by means of Doppler shift.
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Re: Snarky non-responses to questions

Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:43 am

And, radars don't care about Pythagoras. They can measure speed by means of Doppler shift.
Hmm, either I got my triangles mixed up our you just proved your own point about girls being better at maths ;)
See that's the problem, no more spear throwers. The nerds won, now they all have girls.

Theoretical studies are pointless in the real world.
Nothing beats learning than going off and actually doing it.
Instead everyone asks for the answers now. Back on topic :lol:
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Heater
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Re: Snarky non-responses to questions

Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:15 am

Gavinmc42,
...either I got my triangles mixed up our you just proved your own point about girls being better at maths
I would love to see your explanation of what that is about.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Re: Snarky non-responses to questions

Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:23 am

Cop sits on side of road, aims off at angle to on coming traffic.
Doppler measures speed to cop in direct line, the long side of the triangle.
But the car is not following that line, it is going along the road.
As it gets closer the angle changes.
Is the car going faster than the indicated speed or slower?
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