How many here actually *care* about the goals of the project?

[radu]

Quote from SlayingDragons on December 7, 2011, 04:02
2nd part, you could easily pick up an old composite-in TV to use with the raspi. I can't speak for the 3rd world as I've never been there and neither have you, but supplying computers for the 3rd world, quite frankly, isn't the primary goal of the project. It's to get kids into programming, with supplying computers to 3rd world being an added possibility. Perhaps a more important goal would to be trying to get a constant supply of electricity before worrying about commodities such as a computer and TV, or a tablet?


I've never been in a 3rd world country, but I know places in Europe, some even in EU, where people are so poor that they don't even have a TV. If this project is not aimed at poor people, then I don't see why someone would pick this to teach general programming, when you can use a normal computer that is more capable.

[Moor]

Cost of failure and distribution: if you trash and RasPi, you reflash the SD card. If you trash a computer, it's a whole lot worse.
Also, it's a lot easier to give someone a $35 RasPi than a $200 computer. Especially if you're going to say "have fun, do whatever."

[bradburts]

I've never been in a 3rd world country, but I know places in Europe, some even in EU, where people are so poor that they don't even have a TV. If this project is not aimed at poor people, then I don't see why someone would pick this to teach general programming, when you can use a normal computer that is more capable.

Yes, the project should aim for open access, education should be for all.
Its always a compromise but I think that the RPI has, as best can be, been designed for the poor. Low cost, low power, I think that you can down convert HDMI easily enough.

I grew up in the 70's, we did not have reliable power then

EDIT: Its not $0 but it is a platform which lowers the bar both to education and developers which should in turn promote education.
Just look what fun you can have with a smart phone, the PI is just fine.

[tufty]

<sigh>
Because...

1 - "People" might not be poor, but schools are (that's pretty much global, but in these times of "belt-tightening" it's getting worse). Schools are underfunded, and there is a movement in most places to reduce the number of state employees - yes, politicians are sacrificing the future of our children to satisfy the merchant bankers in the short term, but that's a whole different (and rather political) argument. A computer that costs close to nothing, even if "less capable" than a big fat desktop or an android tablet (the latter is debatable, but hey) allows motivated teachers and school boards (who, contrary to popular opinion, generally *do* care about the future of our children) to spend "pocket money" on re-introducing something that should never have been removed from the curriculum in the first place, even if they are doing it "under the radar" and totally off the official roadmap.

2 - A fully-fledged computer is a major investment, it's hard to restore after you've buggered it up, and letting kids program on one - umm - frowned upon. A device that can be restored to "virgin" state simply by clearing / reinitialising the flashcard it runs from is much easier to deal with.

3 - Approximately 20% of the UK population don't have computers at home, and of those that do, how many have "programming" access, let alone the tools and exact same setup as in school. Giving a "standard" computer of trivial value (and thus not really "nickable") to a kid to take home and do his/her homework sidesteps this issue neatly.

4 - A teacher can start all the kids at the beginning of a year / term / week / individual class with a "standard" flashcard image tailored for the purpose.

5 - A "normal" computer will be running something by MS, and thus, programming will be to MS "standard". Goebbels knew all about indoctrinating the youth.

Shall I keep going?

Oh, and as for installing Linux on your tablet, remember that Chinese manufacturers are not terribly good at meeting their GPL requirements. My guess, based on past performance and bitter experience (Witstech A81) is that your requests for documentation or the GPL-required source code will fall on deaf ears. I hope I'm wrong, but I fear not.

Quote from bradburts on December 7, 2011, 08:34
I grew up in the 70's, we did not have reliable power then
I don't have it now. The lights in the house are flickering as we speak (thank $GAWD for UPSs).

Simon

[bradburts]

At $25 its a text book which schools could send home for homework.
Need a box of course but the woodwork department can sort that one.

And yes, ease of use, including the ability to simply swap cards is an important part of open access.
Thats why we should all contribute to the wikis once we start using, even if its to just explain our workflow for swapping cards, or get started leason plans.

[Wooloomooloo]

Quote from radu on December 7, 2011, 07:02
I've never been in a 3rd world country, but I know places in Europe, some even in EU, where people are so poor that they don't even have a TV. If this project is not aimed at poor people, then I don't see why someone would pick this to teach general programming, when you can use a normal computer that is more capable.
You know what, I've just about had it with that whole "TVs are preciousssssss" argument: [Citation needed].

I'm not arguing you may not have been in places - anywhere in the world - where TV was just not present, but I'm pretty convinced the lack of it could be explained by either (a) lack of electricity or (b) lack of locally receivable free broadcast or (c) the place in question falling under the bottom 1% of poverty of that general area. Oh yeah, or (d) just possibly they might have been Amish.

I've been in rather impoverished small mountain villages in Easter Europe too, where any money - any money at all - was a big deal, and they lived at subsistence levels. But they DID have a TV.

I've also been to middle-of-nowhere places in Arabic countries (I don't know which "world" they count as - and no, not Dubai et al. with the mercs and indoor ski slopes), where humble watchmen in obscure outposts guarding a piece of pipe with a valve had three things in their huts: a cupboard, a bed, and yes, a TV. And mud-built-like "family homes" with no furniture whatsoever, and exactly two pieces of tech: the run-down Suzuki pick-up truck needed to get anywhere in a place with no public transport and - wait for it... a TV!

So no, I'm not buying into TVs being unaffordable in 95% of ANY world, save the iconic "dying of thirst with the flies buzzing around" parts (arguably, those are not exactly the Pi's target anyway). Some other folks seem to think the same, including the parts where people allegedly watch TV even in the ABSENCE of line power: [1]. Yes, I am aware that not all TV sets have any kind of video-in capability. No, I'm not trying to say that there's NO kid that couldn't make use of an RPi if they just wanted to, but I am saying that there is no place where there aren't a whole bunch of children who could make use of one if they got one - possibly on that family TV, if only they manage to scrape the rest of their family off of it first!

That's all, thank you, I'm done.

[1]: http://www.abc.net.au/radionat.....ct/3109366

[Skygod]

I've read the first 6 pages of this thread, but my phone battery is getting low, so I jumped to the last page. I am currently experiencing the Internet 'experience' in the same way the locals do. (Posting using GPRS on a Nokia 6600 is hard work!). A fallacy is that people in the 'developing' world suffer because they do not have a big income. It's not needed as people grow food and have a community 'ethos'. They may be cash poor but have access to food and shelter so are doing OK on the Maslow scale. They want better foq their children, so if I can help and they can afford an RPi then everyone wins!

[j0z0r]

I'm in agreement with most here. While I'm going to use this to solve some of my first world problems, I think the approaches used will be universally effective. For every board sold, that'll be one more person trying to make it work in their specific scenario. I do care about the Foundation's goals of educating the world's youth about programming rather than how to use a spreadsheet. I'm going to buy a couple and donate them to my high school electronics teacher (after I get mine and play). I'd also like to help in an after-school club type of thing, but I'll have to wait and see if the interest is there.
Also, this box will educate me in programming. I've done a little Java, and I'm starting on Python. I wasn't fortunate enough to grow up in the beginning of computers and programming, so I feel I have a lot of catching up to do.

PS - On the TV thing, I've been to Mexico in some of the parts where people still live in houses made of dirt and sticks. One of the things that surprised me; TV in about every other house

[max1zzz]

Quote from radu on December 7, 2011, 07:02
I've never been in a 3rd world country, but I know places in Europe, some even in EU, where people are so poor that they don't even have a TV. If this project is not aimed at poor people, then I don't see why someone would pick this to teach general programming, when you can use a normal computer that is more capable.

Because it is a breakable board, it doesn't matter if you utterly ruin it becuse it won't cost the world to replace, sure the MBP I'm typing on now could compile the same code faster, but what if some really badly coded application ruins the os install? with the MBP - several hours copying data to and from a large backup drive and reinstalling the os and all my apps (please don't go "You could have used time machine" that's not the point)
with the RPI - a couple of mins to reflash the sd card, and copy a much smaller amount of data to and throw.

also in a teaching enviroment it is a small cheap board that can be given to kids to take home to do homework on, as peoples computers at home tend to run different os's and sometimes be on different architectures than the ones at school (i'm not going to have much luck writing and testing x86 VB code on my PowerMac G5 now am I)

[mental2k]

I was under the impression that the purpose of these boards was to help people learn? The Ras-Pi offers possibly the best way to do this. Sure I could buy an old PC to do something similar. Except there are a finite number of old PCs, and they're certainly not portable. Can someone tell me where I can buy an old P4 with easily accessible 0.1" pitch GPIO pins? Sure I could hook up a dev board, but that'd cost me the same as a Ras-Pi. Back to square one. Now say I did want to hook up an Arduino and do a bit of tinkering with serial communication on the board, how do I debug this? You can't use the serial pins for a peripheral and see what is going on with the serial communication on your PC at the same time. The Raspberry Pi should be able to cope with this.

Of course I could buy an XMEGA based Arduino, but I think I'm right in saying that'd be even more expensive than a Pi.

Yes, you're quite correct I could buy a tablet for less than a Ras-Pi, a mouse and a keyboard etc. Then when I want to learn something low level I can root the tablet. Which would void the warranty. Then I brick it, and it's useless to me. There's another $100 for another tablet. At this point I could replace my Pi four times over.

Lets say we have a family of 2 kids, both with a Ras-Pi, I only really need 1 monitor, 1 mouse and 1 keyboard and 2 Pis. That'd be $125, in tablet terms $200. And I still can't easily hack up a few peripherals.

I wish the Pi was round 10-15 years ago when I first developed an interest in programming, my pocket money would have covered it in a few weeks, and I would be a much better hacker/coder than I am now.

A lot of the hater posts seem reminiscent of the 'duino haters on HaD. I never really understood that. Personally I think the Raspberry Pi seems like a great idea, at 25 I think I'm going to learn a lot using one and I can't see why kids won't? I'm all for the goals of the project, and a definitely plan to document and little projects I construct using a Pi, hopefully it'll inspire someone else to code something up and maybe it'll help someone else fix something else that they're having trouble with. I know I've been helped by people documenting stuff.

Even if it does just become a media streaming device or emulator for most people look at how the XBMC and PSP hacking communities grew. This is certainly a more accessible platform than either the xBox or PSP. Oh, and my first non Arduino uC project was a controller converter to allow me to use 2 Sega Saturn controllers to play emulators on my PC. I learned a lot from that...

[radu]

Quote from mental2k on December 7, 2011, 23:54
Yes, you're quite correct I could buy a tablet for less than a Ras-Pi, a mouse and a keyboard etc. Then when I want to learn something low level I can root the tablet. Which would void the warranty. Then I brick it, and it's useless to me. There's another $100 for another tablet. At this point I could replace my Pi four times over.
Based on your logic, I guess you don't drive a car because you can crash it, right? And why would you brick it if you are trying to learn something low level? I don't quite get it.

Lets say we have a family of 2 kids, both with a Ras-Pi, I only really need 1 monitor, 1 mouse and 1 keyboard and 2 Pis. That'd be $125, in tablet terms $200. And I still can't easily hack up a few peripherals.
What??
So you are comparing one apple with two apples, and then complaining that two apples cost more? How are two RPis that you use one at a time better than one?
No, the correct math is: 2 kids, both using the devices at the same time:
2 Rpi + keyboard/mouse/usb hub/wifi card + 2 TVs = ~300 usd.
2 tablets + two keyboards/mouse = ~220 usd.

A lot of the hater posts seem reminiscent of the 'duino haters on HaD. I never really understood that.
Where are those hater posts? I didn't see any in this thread.

[Point3Forever]

Quote from radu on December 8, 2011, 01:31
...
2 Rpi + keyboard/mouse/usb hub/wifi card + 2 TVs = ~300 usd.
...

Wait,

2 Rpi's -- $70

2 Keyboards -- $12.80 http://www.dealextreme.com/p/f.....keys-55897

2 Mice -- $17.40 http://www.dealextreme.com/p/u.....able-90106

2 Wifi Sticks -- $15.80 http://www.dealextreme.com/p/8.....pter-50856

2 Hubs -- $11.20 http://www.dealextreme.com/p/m.....-black-787

2 Monitors -- $100 There was a sale not to long ago for $50, but I don't have a link

Total: $227.2

I went in trying to disprove you, and you turned out to be about right. I'll keep it here for reference.

[radu]

You will probably need powered hubs, if you want a keyboard, mouse and wifi, so add another 10 bucks or so. As for monitors for 50 bucks, I've never seen any so far. And if you did see any, it probably had a VGA only input, not dvi/hdmi. It will be very hard to find compatible monitors under 80 usd.

Oh, and how about adding two SD cards and two power adapters for the RPi? Another, say, ~15-20 bucks or so.

[edit]
And even so, that tablet has a speaker, microphone, and two web cams, which can be quite useful for educational purposes (listening to podcasts, video conferences with teachers, and so on).

[walney]

Quote (so not shouting )
"THE OBJECT OF THE CHARITY IS TO FURTHER THE ADVANCEMENT OF EDUCATION OF ADULTS AND CHILDREN, PARTICULARLY IN THE FIELD OF COMPUTERS, COMPUTER SCIENCE AND RELATED SUBJECTS"
Where it operates: THROUGHOUT ENGLAND

Those are the stated goals, plain and simple. Any benefits that come to pass elsewhere are a bonus. In my opinion, would a netbook be better? No - more expensive, not sufficiently durable and a magnet for theft. Would a tablet be better? No - more expensive (this is the UK we are talking about - no way you are going to get a reasonably functional tablet for the equivalent of $100 here), not sufficiently durable... and a magnet for theft. (They also aren't all that great to type on - I'm doing this on one and the onscreen keyboard reduces usable screen size by 50%)

But, even if you are right, tablets and netbooks are freely available in the UK but I don't see any evidence of them making the slightest difference in addressing the foundation's stated goals.

In any case, the arguments are moot at this point. The damn thing isn't even on sale yet. Give it 12 months, then you can come back and say "I told you so."

[DavidCDean]

Why is anyone worried about what's better or worse? A workstation is not a laptop is not a netbook is not a tablet is not a raspberrypi is not an arduino is not a textbook is not a pen. They're all tools that have different utility. What's more, using any of them doesn't preclude the use of another.

This thread has fallen way down the rabbit hole...

[j0z0r]

Quote from DavidCDean on December 8, 2011, 08:46
Why is anyone worried about what's better or worse? A workstation is not a laptop is not a netbook is not a tablet is not a raspberrypi is not an arduino is not a textbook is not a pen. They're all tools that have different utility. What's more, using any of them doesn't preclude the use of another.

This thread has fallen way down the rabbit hole...

Agreed. Idk why we even had to have another price list. It's just fulfilling someone's random rant off the top of their head. In RL, there will be so many different configurations that I think the price listing is a waste of time. If it's just to learn some programming, why do we need the wi-fi and powered hubs? Or the mouse for that matter? And that screen is adding precious dollars when we could just hack up an existing display. Portable DVD players, PSPs, whatever. And paying for keyboards... What? I know a perfectly good dumpster where I can find one about 80% of the time. So now, regardless of what could do which thing better or cheaper, OP; How many here actually *care* about the goals of the project?

[mental2k]

I will say I am all in favour I thin its a great project. I'd also like to respond to another post though. (I'm getting into the realms of "someone on the internet is wrong" syndrome)

Quote from radu on December 8, 2011, 01:31
Quote from mental2k on December 7, 2011, 23:54
Yes, you're quite correct I could buy a tablet for less than a Ras-Pi, a mouse and a keyboard etc. Then when I want to learn something low level I can root the tablet. Which would void the warranty. Then I brick it, and it's useless to me. There's another $100 for another tablet. At this point I could replace my Pi four times over.
Based on your logic, I guess you don't drive a car because you can crash it, right? And why would you brick it if you are trying to learn something low level? I don't quite get it.

I do drive but the better analogy here would be having to replace the entire car because you have a flat tire. I probably wouldn't drive if I had to buy a new car every time I had a flat.

Lets say we have a family of 2 kids, both with a Ras-Pi, I only really need 1 monitor, 1 mouse and 1 keyboard and 2 Pis. That'd be $125, in tablet terms $200. And I still can't easily hack up a few peripherals.
What??
So you are comparing one apple with two apples, and then complaining that two apples cost more? How are two RPis that you use one at a time better than one?
No, the correct math is: 2 kids, both using the devices at the same time:
2 Rpi + keyboard/mouse/usb hub/wifi card + 2 TVs = ~300 usd.
2 tablets + two keyboards/mouse = ~220 usd.

I'm fairly confident just about any parent could easily work out a schedule whereby each child has access to the peripherals required to operate the Raspberry Pi. I also realise that the counter argument is why not 1 Pi. Simply because both kids may have a computing class at the same time in school, or may want to take their Pi round a friends house to use it etc etc.

A lot of the hater posts seem reminiscent of the 'duino haters on HaD. I never really understood that.
Where are those hater posts? I didn't see any in this thread.

Complaining that the Pi is not really a useful device, or that kids would be better served with other devices is not showing much love for the Pi.

[walney]

[yabba]

Quote from abishur on December 3, 2011, 14:11
Yeah, I'm not sure if I buy the "it's been around so it's not novel" premise. I mean electricity and light bulbs have been around for a long time but I still couldn't get enough of reading about it as a child. Our first computer was a tandy 286 and then a Compaq 333 (mHz) I was so enthralled with technology, I really wanted to get into those, but I was barely allowed to touch the keyboard under strict supervision. I often wonder how my life might be different now if I had been allowed to have a computer of my own to tinker with.

But that was exactly my point wasn't it? Reading about it. Not buying a lightbulb and looking at it (still none the wiser)

That's exactly why I said the internet is the key, life changing thing that teaches you about, well, about anything, but how computers work and how to program in <whatever language> it's especially good at.

I'm guessing you didn't rush out to homebase and buy lightbulbs did you? People do buy lots of lightbulbs though. I doubt this device is like a lightbulb in that sense though where every home will have one.

I'm betting nigh on every home had a micro computer just as nigh on every home has internet access today.

In terms of being something kids are going to want to own I don't see (a) that being in schools is much of a help - I know the BBC had their TV programme and schools got computers, but they followed the rest of the population (and the BBC made a product that most people couldn't afford)
and (b) you don't want to confuse wanting to read or know about how something works with wanting to buy a cheap one.

Really, if I wanted my kids to read about computers, I'd be better buying them a kindle for Xmas wouldn't I? Then if their interest is lightbulbs or gardening, they could use the Kindle to read about them instead.

But hey, maybe the main difference here is it sounds like you let your kid(s) have pretty full access to a computer already. That's a rare and special thing, a lot of parents aren't educated in computers and don't allow any access to them, that's what makes this project so great. It provides a device that parents find affordable and allows children to have a computer of their own.

Well yes. He's used a computer from the age of 2. The first thing he read (at around that age) was "loading please wait"

So yeah, I'll concede that many parents probably don't let their kids use the computer for fear of "messing it up".

But, I think RPi it's arguably too affordable to the point where it's similary undesirable.

The zx81 was around, what? £70? What's that in today's money?
I'd accept the BBC was too expensive.

But, albeit at the time micro computers were very cheap in computing terms. They were not cheap.

So why make this so cheap? The only good idea Alan sugar ever had was including a monitor with his computers because he knew kids would struggle to get access to the TV. His thinking was that if dad wants to watch the football, kids wouldn't be able to play on the computer. So he figured parents would buy the computer that didn't need a TV.

So I definitely would have stuck a screen on it.

Of course, most of us live in houses with 3+ TVs, and it doesn't matter. But if you're aiming at people who are poor and that's why it's so cheap, how are they going to use it?

Bleh, the gpu thing again. Seriously.... just... just read about it on the site will you. You've obviously read enough to see one of the r-pi team or us moderators talk about this and apparently have jumped on with the "not being able to use it = reduced functionality" bandwagon

Unfair. I didn't say reduced functionality. Functionality is immaterial. I have lots of things already with more functionality.

I said the only interesting thing about this project is learning how it works. If how the GPU works is a secret, then it's not teaching anything.

The best argument you have is now lots of blurb that basically says that you can learn something higher level without needing to know the lower level - but this is the complete anti-thesis to what has been said in the press about this device.

Again, there are a multitude of devices, most of which people own that can be programmed at a high-level. Most of them come with a built in screen.


but when was the last time you tried to edit the innards of your bios? The answer for 99.9% of us would be never.

Since you ask I often disassembled parts of the bios on my 8086 (ps2 model 30) stepping through things like the keyboard interrupt, using the debugger. Along with reading one of the many "ibm pc internals" books that taught how to write "terminate and stay resident" programs and things like that.

Did quite a lot of disassembling early PC malware too.

But you aren't aiming at the "99.9% who never", are you?

Really the arguments you come up with suggest to me the project hasn't really got much idea about who it is targeted at. Is it kids? Poor kids? 3rd World kids? Schools? The 99.9% who have never? Or the 0.1% who actually seem interested in it but you seem keen on dismissing simply because you bought a cheap part from broadcom?

Ironic really because the people who want it aren't price conscious - indeed you're even hoping they will bid over the odds for an early one.

Don't say "all of them" or "any of them" - when I read the BBC article about the Raspberry that piques my interest, but it's not really aimed at me, even if I buy one. Convince me this device has a target market and that you understand this market.

Because I honestly think many of the people involved in the project change the market, and the market's skill level and interest, just to suit the point they are making at the time.

Even to the point of nigh on telling me that my kid is different from other kids. But this is not true.

As I say, when I wanted a ZX81, it wasn't because Mum and Dad thought it was a good idea or because they were programmers. I saw one, was transfixed and wanted it. Who is supposed to see the Raspberry Pi, be transfixed by it and buy it (or nag someone into buying it for them)?

Does it feel like the motherboard manufactures are being condescending and calling you "mere mortals" because they say that messing with the bios would require months and months of work to be able to work with it?

But they didn't say that and don't say that. In fact, most of the non-IBM PCs were famously clean room backward engineered in order to exist in the first place.

There are projects for open firmware from metal upwards too. So yeah, it does feel like that, and that feeling is more or less what inspired GNU and much of open source in the first place.

But, I was talking specifically about someone on this board who said (and I paraphrase) that the chip was too complicated for him to understand and concluded that meant no one else would.

i.e the argument he made was that the target market are dumb. Is that true?

[scep]

I did start reading this - honest - but I tripped over a scrum of straw men into a muddy puddle of non-sequiturs and misinformation.

I stopped reading at:just as nigh on every home has internet access today.This is simply not true - one in four homes do not have access. And the main reasons for not having it are "don't need it", "costs too much" and "lack of skills". Nuff said.

If you can summarise your post into a few concise, evidence-based paragraphs, I'd be happy to give it another go. Ta.

[bradburts]

Even the RPI organisation do not appear to have internet access these days......

[DavidS]

I know that I plan on releasing a product built around the Raspberry Pi, and once it is out, I will donate to the organization the price of 1 board for every 2 that i buy (that is 2 to one), in order to help it see it's way into education. Also everyone that I teach in the future will be taught on these boards (running Risc OS, AROS, or a clone of one of these).

[bradburts]

Good luck.
Buying boards will help reduce the price for everyone else plus the gift of course.
What will the product do?

[jamesh]

Quote from scep on December 23, 2011, 19:16
I did start reading this - honest - but I tripped over a scrum of straw men into a muddy puddle of non-sequiturs and misinformation.

I stopped reading at:just as nigh on every home has internet access today.This is simply not true - one in four homes do not have access. And the main reasons for not having it are "don't need it", "costs too much" and "lack of skills". Nuff said.

If you can summarise your post into a few concise, evidence-based paragraphs, I'd be happy to give it another go. Ta.

It even more untrue once you get out of built up areas, or in to less than first world countries.

[scep]

Quote from DavidS on December 23, 2011, 20:54
I know that I plan on releasing a product built around the Raspberry Pi, and once it is out, I will donate to the organization the price of 1 board for every 2 that i buy (that is 2 to one), in order to help it see it's way into education. Also everyone that I teach in the future will be taught on these boards (running Risc OS, AROS, or a clone of one of these).Generous and forward thinking - good luck.