W. H. Heydt
Posts: 10981
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: why on earth are USB keyboards still using scan codes

Thu May 26, 2016 3:03 am

Heater wrote:W. H. Heydt,
...easier to type on --> faster typing --> fewer typists --> saves money...
Except those claims are essentially bogus. Or at least unsubstantiated.

Thing is, what are you doing with your keyboard? After programming for decades I still mostly don't know where all the keys are by "finger memory". But that is not a problem. My simple mind cannot think of code write or fix at anything like a typists keying rate. It's certainly not the bottle neck in the process.

What would help me is not having "[", "]", "{", "}", "|", and so on buried away and so hard to use. "Alt Gr" and all that. Not to mention "`" and "~".

And why the hell do we waste space with the totally redundant "CapsLock" key? The "Windows" key? Not to mention the easy to get to "¤" which nobody every uses, even if they know what it means.

Oh and why is the even "½" and "§" on my keyboard? Who ever uses that?

Qwerty is weird, but that is the least of our problems.
I was never a very good touch typist, and--as you note--programming didn't do anything to make it better. On the other hand, my wife used to reliably type at 100 wpm on a Selectric and was probably self-limiting since Seletrics had problems starting around 110 wpm, which was likely her short term burst speed. (As evidence, on some quick sequences she was prone to get hyphens, which is what a Selectric gave when it's very limited rollover capability was exceeded).

I can think of uses for capslock, though I'd rather it was put farther out of the way (so I don't hit it when I'm aiming for the left shift key...I have pretty large hands). I don't have "1/2" or "Section mark" keys. Is that a peculiarity of UK keyboards?

And...they keyboard I'm using was specifically selected to NOT have "Windows" keys.

Heater
Posts: 13592
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: why on earth are USB keyboards still using scan codes

Thu May 26, 2016 6:19 am

The "½" and "§" are on Finnish/Scandinavian keyboards. No idea why. As far as I recall UK keyboards have similar annoyances.

Whilst we are at it, I'd love to find a keyboard with out all that space wasted on the redundant number pad. That's a huge waste of space, and worse still it's wasting space exactly where where the mouse could be.

Keyboards could be a lot smaller whilst keeping the keys the same size without a num pad. All the keyboards I find without a num pad area are built to be small with smaller keys, and horrible squishy keys rather than big old klunky ones that I like.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

User avatar
RaTTuS
Posts: 10481
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:12 am
Location: North West UK

Re: why on earth are USB keyboards still using scan codes

Thu May 26, 2016 8:33 am

How To ask Questions :- http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
WARNING - some parts of this post may be erroneous YMMV

1QC43qbL5FySu2Pi51vGqKqxy3UiJgukSX
Covfefe

User avatar
scruss
Posts: 2542
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:25 pm
Location: Toronto, ON
Contact: Website

Re: why on earth are USB keyboards still using scan codes

Thu May 26, 2016 8:41 am

Heater, you might like this, then: http://olkb.com/planck/

There are many others like it.
‘Remember the Golden Rule of Selling: “Do not resort to violence.”’ — McGlashan.

Heater
Posts: 13592
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: why on earth are USB keyboards still using scan codes

Thu May 26, 2016 9:09 am

Excellent suggestions guys. Thanks.

I like to bash on keyboards in the store before I decide to buy them. Only our local PC super store has hundreds of keyboards, none-like that. Guess I might just have to take a risk and order one on line.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

User avatar
Cancelor
Posts: 757
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:09 pm
Location: UK

Re: why on earth are USB keyboards still using scan codes

Thu May 26, 2016 2:16 pm

Heater wrote:.....
What would help me is not having "[", "]", "{", "}", "|", and so on buried away and so hard to use. "Alt Gr" and all that. Not to mention "`" and "~".

And why the hell do we waste space with the totally redundant "CapsLock" key? The "Windows" key? Not to mention the easy to get to "¤" which nobody ever uses, even if they know what it means.

Oh and why is the even "½" and "§" on my keyboard? Who ever uses that?

Qwerty is weird, but that is the least of our problems.
You have a weird keyboard, chuck it in the bin and buy a decent one! :lol:
Mine has "[", "]", "{", "}", "|" and "~" all in very easy places to use and it doesn't have any of the funny ones you mentioned.
Can't find the thread you want? Try googling : YourSearchHere site:raspberrypi.org

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 10981
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: why on earth are USB keyboards still using scan codes

Thu May 26, 2016 2:32 pm

Heater wrote:Excellent suggestions guys. Thanks.

I like to bash on keyboards in the store before I decide to buy them. Only our local PC super store has hundreds of keyboards, none-like that. Guess I might just have to take a risk and order one on line.
There have been times when my wife and I walked along an entire aisle of keyboards at Fry's Electronics and she tested the "touch" on each one to find the decent ones. These days, I just order keyboards from Unicomp. They licensed the key switch tech that IBM used on the original IBM PC keyboards when they were trying to duplicate the "touch" of the Selectric.

Heater
Posts: 13592
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: why on earth are USB keyboards still using scan codes

Thu May 26, 2016 2:53 pm

Unicomp looks great. Bit pricey mind.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

User avatar
RaTTuS
Posts: 10481
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:12 am
Location: North West UK

Re: why on earth are USB keyboards still using scan codes

Thu May 26, 2016 2:54 pm

How To ask Questions :- http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
WARNING - some parts of this post may be erroneous YMMV

1QC43qbL5FySu2Pi51vGqKqxy3UiJgukSX
Covfefe

W. H. Heydt
Posts: 10981
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:36 pm
Location: Vallejo, CA (US)

Re: why on earth are USB keyboards still using scan codes

Thu May 26, 2016 4:23 pm

Heater wrote:Unicomp looks great. Bit pricey mind.
They are rugged and hold up under use. The one in front of me at the moment is at least 15 years old. They're also pretty heavy, so they don't tend to move around under use. It's a "you get what you pay for" situation. If you need a robust keyboard that will last a long time, they're worth the money (to me, at least....YMMV).

stderr
Posts: 2178
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:29 pm

Re: why on earth are USB keyboards still using scan codes

Thu May 26, 2016 4:45 pm

Heater wrote:Keyboards could be a lot smaller whilst keeping the keys the same size without a num pad. All the keyboards I find without a num pad area are built to be small with smaller keys, and horrible squishy keys rather than big old klunky ones that I like.
What you are talking about is basically the IBM XT style keyboard, although in looking at wikipedia, it seems like the AT version of that would be more sensible although although it moves the ctrl key to where the caps lock should be: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IBM_Model_F_AT.png . Positives include a full size backspace key, that same sized enter key and the backslash is slightly larger. No redundant ctrl and alt keys, just one of each!

Just find one of those, hook it to an adapter that you've than got attached to a pi zero you've made into a keyboard controller and then out to your other systems via ssh. The other issues could probably be solved by running with a US keyboard layout. Someone might make a current product in this style, people were sure mad back in the day when this change occurred, their wordperfect skills using the function keys on the left didn't translate to the top.

Heater
Posts: 13592
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:02 pm

Re: why on earth are USB keyboards still using scan codes

Thu May 26, 2016 5:44 pm

stderr,

Hmmm, IBM XT. That's going back!

Anyway too wide. Still got a redundant num pad.

I guess what I want is more like this:
Image

Just hook it up to the UART on the GPIO and put a little mouse board to the right.

:)
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

Peter Ryan
Posts: 39
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:44 am
Location: UK

Re: why on earth are USB keyboards still using scan codes

Sat Jun 04, 2016 9:51 pm

I'm looking at "The Keyboard Company" logo and just imagining hundreds of managers at retail outlets telling their shelf-stackers, "Just remember guys, make absolutely sure you stack those keyboard boxes up the right way this time... okay??!". :D
Image

Return to “Off topic discussion”