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EimGhey
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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Mon May 16, 2016 10:32 pm

Can everyone please stop trying to outsmart... I am not guy for contest I am guy for fun... :)

gregeric
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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Mon May 16, 2016 10:33 pm

:) The statement stands, but biology, especially evolutionary biology is a lot, lot harder than physics to practice as a science. Einstein had it easy compared to Darwin. Respect. (I say that as someone who studied phyisics a loooong time ago).

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EimGhey
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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Mon May 16, 2016 10:48 pm

Thank you for a moment I thought people were going to start coming out as creationist...

The fact is I am called a creationist when I debate agianst natural selection as the main process by which evolution happens.. the fact is evolution prolly is guided by a different process!

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EimGhey
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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Mon May 16, 2016 10:50 pm

And just so everyone knows I haven't gone to collage yet and am preparing for collage with the RaspPi and other resources so if my knowledge is lacking I actually know more then most people who haven't gone to collage.. My knowledge is lacking due to lack of education not lack of research... :geek:

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MarkHaysHarris777
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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Mon May 16, 2016 10:52 pm

EimGhey wrote:Can everyone please stop trying to outsmart... I am not guy for contest I am guy for fun...
I disagree; respectfully, you're a wise guy who finds fun in your special flavor of, annoying, forum trolling-- and placing an emoticon after what is seriously an attempt to push people's buttons doesn't make it any better. To be clear, if you don't know what you're talking about, you are going to be setting yourself up for some 'smart guy' to flame your tail.
EimGhey wrote:Old people.. Ruining the world for Gen Y! :evil:
... um, that was fun!
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Heater
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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Mon May 16, 2016 10:56 pm

gregeric,
I would like to see that Dirac quote in context, but it doesn't sound like the words of someone working in science. Could well come out the mouth of a mathematician though (but afaicr Dirac had an engineering background before entering theoretical physics).
Sorry I can't link you to the context so easily. Google around, read up on Dirac, the guy was very much into beauty in maths and physics.

Some famous mathematician made a statement about the "unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics in describing the world". Turns out it works both ways around. There is an unreasonable effectiveness of physics (measurable reality) on mathematics. See here if you have time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oWLIVNI6VA

You are making a demarcation between "science" and "maths" which I don't think there is there. It's all "thinking". For the same reason I don't see the need to put a wall between the sciences and the arts.

Back in the old days we did not do that.

gregeric
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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Mon May 16, 2016 11:18 pm

Sorry heater. I got about 5 minutes in to your maths v physics youtube link, then it became tl;dr Zzzz.

Only 8 (now 9) Feynman mentions on this forum, I'm amazed.

Heater
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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Mon May 16, 2016 11:26 pm

How are we supposed to have a reasonable discussion around here when overrun with freaks and their cat pictures?
Last edited by Heater on Tue May 17, 2016 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

Nickcn
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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Mon May 16, 2016 11:32 pm

Heater wrote:How are we supposed to have a reasonable discussion around here when over run with freaks and their cat pictures?
MarkHaysHarris777 wrote: I disagree; respectfully, you're a wise guy who finds fun in your special flavor of, annoying, forum trolling-- and placing an emoticon after what is seriously an attempt to push people's buttons doesn't make it any better. To be clear, if you don't know what you're talking about, you are going to be setting yourself up for some 'smart guy' to flame your tail.

EimGhey (I am Gay)? really, you would never think he is in his 20's-30's, would you? More like 10 if you ask me. Dude is a few cards short of a full deck (and I dont even think he even has a Pi). :roll:
Last edited by Nickcn on Mon May 16, 2016 11:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Heater
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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Mon May 16, 2016 11:35 pm

gregeric,
Sorry heater. I got about 5 minutes in to your maths v physics youtube link, then it became tl;dr Zzzz.
That's a shame because the punch line comes towards the end when the physics guys had calculated some results to a huge number of digits of accuracy and the maths guys did not understand how they did it.

To my mind it looks like the origins of mathematics, which was in geometry. That is to say things you could do with a ruler and a compass. That is to say physical reality.

That is to say, maths comes from physics (measurable reality), not the other way around.

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MarkHaysHarris777
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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Tue May 17, 2016 12:02 am

Nickcn wrote:
EimGhey (I am Gay)? really, you would never think he is in his 20's-30's, would you? More like 10 if you ask me. Dude is a few cards short of a full deck (and I dont even think he even has a Pi). :roll:
Officially, its in the mail (his story is that he's waiting for the PI to arrive... he reminds me of Manny's now famous quote, the first time he meets the possum's sister (Ice Age), "I don't think her tree goes all the way to the top branch!"
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MarkHaysHarris777
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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Tue May 17, 2016 12:34 am

EimGhey wrote: ... but a lot of his theories were collaborations with other scientist for instance E=MC2 was basically the work of another scientist..
Not !

Please read this link, which I left for you in the OT forum...

... it has pics from the 1912 document, commissioned for the University of Leipzig.

(Einsteins own words, in his heart language, in his own hand-writing)!
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hippy
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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Tue May 17, 2016 12:51 am

Heater wrote:hippy,

Wait a minute: Adding all that up I get 364%

Clearly this is nonsense.
Not really. Students were asked if they would like to work in business and 58% said they would, then same question for art and design, etc.

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MarkHaysHarris777
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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Tue May 17, 2016 12:54 am

EimGhey wrote: ... for a moment I thought people were going to start coming out as creationist...

The fact is I am called a creationist when I debate [against] natural selection as the main process by which evolution happens.. the fact is evolution [is probably] guided by a different process!
These days "creationist" is a bad term in the STEM community. Its important to understand the nomenclature, as well as the concepts, behind the debate; or you'll find yourself clapping with one hand... you need to know both sides.

Intelligent Design is the correct term. Those arguing for I.D. are not arguing for "creationism" as apposed to evolution. They are arguing against evolution (as bad science, just a theory, not supporting observed facts and not making accurate predictions) and arguing for an alternative theory which does support observed facts and makes better predictions.

I.D. is not creationism redressed. Accusing scientists who hold I.D. theory of re-dressing creationism also leads to giving science a bad name and a bad taste... as in the article from the OP.

Be careful about making ignorant statements without being able to support your claims. Understand both sides, and most important THINK. Or, when you do go to college, some prof is going to pin you to the mat and make you scream uncle!
marcus
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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Tue May 17, 2016 2:12 am

MarkHaysHarris777,

Some ideas can be backed up by evidence. Like for example evolution.

Some ideas cannot. Like for example intelligent design and creationism (what ever that is)

Turns out that "creationism" and "intelligent design" are actually the same idea pushed by the same people under a different name. They had to change the name to skirt around certain judgements regarding schools in the USA.
Those arguing for I.D....are arguing against evolution (as bad science, just a theory, not supporting observed facts and not making accurate predictions) and arguing for an alternative theory which does support observed facts and makes better predictions.
What "better predictions"?

Are there any measurable results?

Grief, I thought we were done with this nonsense when I was a kid back in 1970 something.

skspurling
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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Tue May 17, 2016 3:38 am

Heater wrote:MarkHaysHarris777,

Some ideas can be backed up by evidence. Like for example evolution.

Some ideas cannot. Like for example intelligent design and creationism (what ever that is)

Turns out that "creationism" and "intelligent design" are actually the same idea pushed by the same people under a different name. They had to change the name to skirt around certain judgements regarding schools in the USA.
Those arguing for I.D....are arguing against evolution (as bad science, just a theory, not supporting observed facts and not making accurate predictions) and arguing for an alternative theory which does support observed facts and makes better predictions.
What "better predictions"?

Are there any measurable results?

Grief, I thought we were done with this nonsense when I was a kid back in 1970 something.
Okay, you just illustrated the issue with the modern science culture. I.D. is not what you characterized. That would be making the assumption that there is no validity to their thinking in any case, instead of realizing that they are saying that some part of your argument has been proved to them. It is a dogmatic approach to science that does it great disservice. People have a tendency to tie themselves to positions, and it makes revisions to scientific understanding difficult. Moreover, it turns a process for understanding the world around us into a dogmatic cloistered cult, where reciting the proper wold view makes you part of the clique.
There was a talk about IoT by the arduino guy. He was saying IoT needs to be open source so it is accessible and open to all. That is where STEAM education needs to be. Not someones closed kingdom. Not someones little pond so they can be the big fish. It is so people can discover their ideas and share them.

One thing that I think is impacting this can also be tracked back to what I call "stand back and let the professionals handle it". People aren't getting their hands dirty, and corporations find it much easier to sell junk to people who don't know better, and don't know how to fix things. People grow complacent, and think someone else who is trained will do it... How do they start learning? Teach kids independence, creativity, problem solving, and curiosity. They will then be flexible enough to understand what ever field comes up in the tech world next.

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MarkHaysHarris777
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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Tue May 17, 2016 3:58 am

EimGhey wrote: Well just to play devils advocate Einstein is actually more of human rights activist.. His contribution to science is a little exaggerated although he did contribute to the atomic bomb.. But he didn't like to talk about that after what happened to the Japanese.
There is a book you might like to read entitled, "Ideas and Opinions". ISBN 0-517-00393-7

The book is a compendium (a kind of anthology) of the many writings of Albert Einstein; its in English. His popular writings include talks about freedom, education, religion, friends, politics, pacifism, government, the Jewish people, Germany, and of course contributions to science.

The book is one of my favorites; I've read it many times.

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Gerd
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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Tue May 17, 2016 9:04 am

gregeric wrote:I would like to see that Dirac quote in context, but it doesn't sound like the words of someone working in science. Could well come out the mouth of a mathematician though (but afaicr Dirac had an engineering background before entering theoretical physics).
The quote is from Scientific American May 1963.
I think that there is a moral to this story, namely that it is more important to have beauty in one's equations that to have them fit experiment. If Schrödinger had been more confident of his work, he could have published it some months earlier, and he could have published a more accurate equation. It seems that if one is working from the point of view of getting beauty in one's equations, and if one has really a sound insight, one is on a sure line of progress. If there is not complete agreement between the results of one's work and experiment, one should not allow oneself to be too discouraged, because the discrepancy may well be due to minor features that are not properly taken into account and that will get cleared up with further development of the theory.

Imho this quote has to be seen in context with this: The equation for Energy popping out when you say: OK light speed is fixed and we are doing lorenz transformations and then we do the math is: E^2 = m^2*c^4 (+ some momentum stuff), so you get 2 solutions, the positive and the negative root. From this Dirac postulated that there must be an antiparticle to each known particle in the zoo. But this is a very bold postulate, doubling the particels. And he hesitated to publish it.

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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Tue May 17, 2016 1:26 pm

Wow we've come a long way.

I would love to argue about ID, but I'm not going to and nobody else should either. That's liable to head off the deep end very quickly.

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MarkHaysHarris777
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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Tue May 17, 2016 1:33 pm

rurwin wrote:Wow we've come a long way.

I would love to argue about ID, but I'm not going to and nobody else should either. That's liable to head off the deep end very quickly.
Yup. ;)
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skspurling
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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Tue May 17, 2016 2:18 pm

MarkHaysHarris777 wrote:
rurwin wrote:Wow we've come a long way.

I would love to argue about ID, but I'm not going to and nobody else should either. That's liable to head off the deep end very quickly.
Yup. ;)
The key isn't if it's correct or not. It's the attitude that it draws out that is the issue. You can argue things based on merit of what is contained within them. Some will question and discuss, others will double down on what they tie their identity to. That's just people. People are scientists, people are fallible and dumb. Being into science doesn't make you some super correct smart person that can never be wrong, but some think that way. They turn to dirty tricks and cultist behavior instead of letting the data stand on its own and being willing to ask the questions that make people feel uncomfortable and uncertain. When we start to think the foundations of science cannot be questioned, you've lost it. Everything is open to questioning.

So, that's kind of what STEM/STEAM is to me. It's questioning and learning. Being wrong a lot of times, but looking at what happens to learn from it. The data has to be open, view able, and the experiments repeatable. You can't paywall, license, and hide everything. Be wrong. Celebrate failure. Learn.

Heater
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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Tue May 17, 2016 4:04 pm

skspurling,
They turn to dirty tricks and cultist behavior instead of letting the data stand on its own and being willing to ask the questions that make people feel uncomfortable and uncertain. When we start to think the foundations of science cannot be questioned, you've lost it.
When you say "They" I presume you mean scientists. What nonsense. You clearly don't know, or choose to ignore, the history of science. Science, even mathematics, questions it's foundations all the time.

Even as we speak there are those in the physics community questioning if the very concepts of time and space are the fundamental things we should base the subject on.

Worse than nonsense it's malicious slandering of many very fine people.

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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Tue May 17, 2016 4:08 pm

A lot of what I've seen in the ID debate is two groups of people referencing their own clique and saying "<other side> has no explanation for this" when, if you research it, you find that is untrue. It's a mine-field and it is (even though it isn't supposed to be) highly polarised by religion. Everyone knows what happens when religion is discussed on forums.

So no. Big green foot put down and all that. If you must discuss the finer points of the scientific mindset, choose another topic.

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Burngate
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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Tue May 17, 2016 4:43 pm

liz wrote:Where's music fit in on that list? I wanted to be a professional chorister. Actually did it for a couple of years, too, before realising that it was a quick way to starvation and homelessness.
When I was young, I wanted to be a philanthropist - they always seem to be rich ...

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MarkHaysHarris777
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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Tue May 17, 2016 4:45 pm

rurwin wrote:A lot of what I've seen in the ID debate is two groups of people referencing their own clique and saying "<other side> has no explanation for this" when, if you research it, you find that is untrue. It's a mine-field and it is (even though it isn't supposed to be) highly polarised by religion ... Big green foot put down and all that.
I agree. I do think I owe Heater an answer though, to the science side of *any* theory... and the idea is this: any theory if its good science must be falsifiable. Darwin did this in his Origin of Species:
(I'm going to paraphrase, forgive please)
1) If you don't find thousands of transitional forms in the fossil record my theory is falsified.
2) If you find any mechanism which cannot be accounted for in a step-by-step manner, my theory is falsified.

So, as even the late Stephen J Gould admits, there aren't transitional forms in the fossil record... the science establishment must not allow the 'theory' to be falsified... therefore, Gould invented punctuated equalibrium... what some call punk eek...

And of course the whole evolution thing is dying inside the simple cell; because, well, its more sophisticated than the Space Shuttle... and there are more mechanisms that cannot be accounted for in a step-by-step manner than Carter has pills... so Darwin's theory is again falsified.... but, the science establishment will not allow the theory to BE falsified. So, they invent other non scientific stuff to account for it, like transpermia and other things.

My point being, that if you want to encourage open scholarship and honest debate (especially as it wants to attract young people) the high and mighty authoritarian science establishment needs to allow for the scientific method to fall out where it will, and except where the truth leads. We're not there yet.

;)
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