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rurwin
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BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Mon May 16, 2016 7:31 am

Schools and society in general are not giving the impression that science is something ordinary people can and should do.

http://ft.amigopartnership.com/bp/why-s ... 7hr3ec3.97

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morphy_richards
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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Mon May 16, 2016 10:27 am

BP used to run national school competitions, things like "BP Build a Car competition". The climate in schools is good currently for a re-run of something like that. Tied to the curriculum and linked to real, accessible science. After having identified the need and the impact on their own industry, it would be good for them, us and for their image.
I am not shaving my beard off, though.

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EimGhey
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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Mon May 16, 2016 2:33 pm

The fact is schools are not preparing kids for the future in which coding and hardware skills will be necessary to get a job.. We are going to have mass joblessness and jobs going to China cuz of inept Baby Boomers.

Old people.. Ruining the world for Gen Y! :evil:

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morphy_richards
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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Mon May 16, 2016 3:14 pm

morphy_richards wrote:Tied to the curriculum.
Extending would be better. :)

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MarkHaysHarris777
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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Mon May 16, 2016 4:21 pm

morphy_richards wrote: After having identified the need and the impact on their own industry, it would be good for them, us and for their image.
I am not shaving my beard off, though.
They can't have my beard!

... its funny, I don't think I've ever seen Albert Einstein in a white lab coat (article reference). Most of the letters in STEM don't require a lab coat either. STEM should 'extend' (as you have said) the curriculum in my opinion across the boards--- for instance computer science is the 'way' people are going to be thinking (STEM) in the twenty-first century. Hopefully the Raspberry PI will be helpful not only in making STEM fun and interesting for young students, but also for reinvigorating the educational institutions in the U.K., and around the world (my own home U.S.A.) desperately needs this!
marcus
:ugeek:

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EimGhey
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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Mon May 16, 2016 4:28 pm

MarkHaysHarris777 wrote:
morphy_richards wrote: After having identified the need and the impact on their own industry, it would be good for them, us and for their image.
I am not shaving my beard off, though.
They can't have my beard!

... its funny, I don't think I've ever seen Albert Einstein in a white lab coat (article reference). Most of the letters in STEM don't require a lab coat either. STEM should 'extend' (as you have said) the curriculum in my opinion across the boards--- for instance computer science is the 'way' people are going to be thinking (STEM) in the twenty-first century. Hopefully the Raspberry PI will be helpful not only in making STEM fun and interesting for young students, but also for reinvigorating the educational institutions in the U.K., and around the world (my own home U.S.A.) desperately needs this!
Well just to play devils advocate Einstein is actually more of human rights activist.. His contribution to science is a little exaggerated although he did contribute to the atomic bomb.. But he didn't like to talk about that after what happened to the Japanese. You can still see the scars on Japanese culture in anime with the way science, war and power are talked of in the negative!

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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Mon May 16, 2016 4:55 pm

EimGhey wrote: Well just to play devils advocate Einstein is actually more of human rights activist.. His contribution to science is a little exaggerated although he did contribute to the atomic bomb..
Einstein was a pacifist. His entire contribution to the atomic bomb was getting Szilard a hearing with FDR to start the process and this was because he recognized the threat to the world that Hitler and Imperial Japan represented. Einstein's contributions to science were immense and varied.

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MarkHaysHarris777
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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Mon May 16, 2016 5:00 pm

stderr wrote:
EimGhey wrote: Well just to play devils advocate Einstein is actually more of human rights activist.. His contribution to science is a little exaggerated although he did contribute to the atomic bomb..
Einstein was a pacifist. His entire contribution to the atomic bomb was getting Szilard a hearing with FDR to start the process and this was because he recognized the threat to the world that Hitler and Imperial Japan represented. Einstein's contributions to science were immense and varied.
Yes. Albert's entire contribution to the Atomic Bomb was a single short letter to FDR. Einstein passed away the year I was born, so I never got to hear him speak in person (only clips) but I have read almost everything he ever wrote.... he was a pacifist, as well a moralist.
marcus
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EimGhey
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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Mon May 16, 2016 5:11 pm

MarkHaysHarris777 wrote:
stderr wrote:
EimGhey wrote: Well just to play devils advocate Einstein is actually more of human rights activist.. His contribution to science is a little exaggerated although he did contribute to the atomic bomb..
Einstein was a pacifist. His entire contribution to the atomic bomb was getting Szilard a hearing with FDR to start the process and this was because he recognized the threat to the world that Hitler and Imperial Japan represented. Einstein's contributions to science were immense and varied.
Yes. Albert's entire contribution to the Atomic Bomb was a single short letter to FDR. Einstein passed away the year I was born, so I never got to hear him speak in person (only clips) but I have read almost everything he ever wrote.... he was a pacifist, as well a moralist.
Have you read his letter on the Israeli Revisionist Party?

And that is cool could you show me some clips... I have always liked the guy...

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EimGhey
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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Mon May 16, 2016 5:20 pm

stderr wrote:
EimGhey wrote: Well just to play devils advocate Einstein is actually more of human rights activist.. His contribution to science is a little exaggerated although he did contribute to the atomic bomb..
Einstein was a pacifist. His entire contribution to the atomic bomb was getting Szilard a hearing with FDR to start the process and this was because he recognized the threat to the world that Hitler and Imperial Japan represented. Einstein's contributions to science were immense and varied.
Yeah but a lot of his theories were collaborations with other scientist for instance E=MC2 was basically the work of another scientist.. Einstein just explained it! There are even claims he plagiarized but that is more conspiracy theory then proven!

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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Mon May 16, 2016 5:42 pm

With only 15% aspiring to be scientists, it would be interesting to know what the other 85% aspire to be.

A similar report from three years ago may give a clue, and shows little change in wanting to be a scientist from back then -

http://www.kcl.ac.uk/sspp/departments/e ... r-2013.pdf

From rough reading of the graph on page 2 rather than trawling the report shows percentage saying "they would like that job" -

58% Business
40% Art and Design
36% Celebrity
34% Teacher
32% Medicine / Doctor
32% Sport
31% Law
28% Engineering
26% Inventor
20% Hair / Beauty
15% Scientist
12% Trades

I imagine a lot comes down to what a "scientist" is. If you asked me I could not define that as an occupation very well. It conjures up visions of 'boffins' to me, the sort of people who are wheeled out on Horizon who have an all-encompassing understanding of things no one else can even get a grip on.

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EimGhey
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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Mon May 16, 2016 5:54 pm

hippy wrote:With only 15% aspiring to be scientists, it would be interesting to know what the other 85% aspire to be.

A similar report from three years ago may give a clue, and shows little change in wanting to be a scientist from back then -

http://www.kcl.ac.uk/sspp/departments/e ... r-2013.pdf

From rough reading of the graph on page 2 rather than trawling the report shows percentage saying "they would like that job" -

58% Business
40% Art and Design
36% Celebrity
34% Teacher
32% Medicine / Doctor
32% Sport
31% Law
28% Engineering
26% Inventor
20% Hair / Beauty
15% Scientist
12% Trades

I imagine a lot comes down to what a "scientist" is. If you asked me I could not define that as an occupation very well. It conjures up visions of 'boffins' to me, the sort of people who are wheeled out on Horizon who have an all-encompassing understanding of things no one else can even get a grip on.
Well at least Artist and Teacher are high on the list... But were is politician.. I wanted to the dictator of the planet when I was a kid! :mrgreen:

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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Mon May 16, 2016 6:17 pm

Where's music fit in on that list? I wanted to be a professional chorister. Actually did it for a couple of years, too, before realising that it was a quick way to starvation and homelessness.
Director of Communications, Raspberry Pi

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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Mon May 16, 2016 6:52 pm

Liz, music is under the "Art and design" label, after all, musicians are 'art-ists' ;)

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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Mon May 16, 2016 6:59 pm

EimGhey wrote: Yeah but a lot of his theories were collaborations with other scientist for instance E=MC2 was basically the work of another scientist.. Einstein just explained it! There are even claims he plagiarized but that is more conspiracy theory then proven!
You are dead wrong about that one ...

... his work came after (and was based on) the Michelson-Morley experiment, and on the Lorentz transformations. His special theory of relativity and particularly the math that led him to realize E=mc^2 is his own... and not one word of his 1905 paper is plagiarized; to say such an ignorant thing is unbecoming and disrespectful. I own a photo-lithograph of his hand-written 1905 paper, first draft with corrections.
marcus
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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Mon May 16, 2016 7:09 pm

hippy wrote: I imagine a lot comes down to what a "scientist" is. If you asked me I could not define that as an occupation very well. It conjures up visions of 'boffins' to me, the sort of people who are wheeled out on Horizon who have an all-encompassing understanding of things no one else can even get a grip on.
Very few scientists are on the order of Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein, nor Stephen Hawking; they are scientists none the less. Anyone, trained or untrained, who uses the scientific method is a scientist-- even children! Professional scientists use the scientific method professionally... scientists like myself use the scientific method on an amateur basis; but, science none the less! (they can't have my beard, and I won't wear a lab coat!)
marcus
:ugeek:

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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Mon May 16, 2016 7:50 pm

Dutch_Master wrote:Liz, music is under the "Art and design" label, after all, musicians are 'art-ists' ;)
Or is it a trade ?

Not trying to demean with that suggestion nor dismiss the skills and talent required but there is to me a difference between creating works and the performance of those works.

Perhaps the biggest problem is that "trades" are looked down upon more than they should be, doesn't distinguish between artisans and others, doesn't credit any creative aspects of a vocation. "Chef" is another difficult one to place. Then there are counsellors and the like and those engaged in religious activities.

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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Mon May 16, 2016 8:11 pm

MarkHaysHarris777 wrote:
You are dead wrong about that one ...

... his work came after (and was based on) the Michelson-Morley experiment, and on the Lorentz transformations. His special theory of relativity and particularly the math that led him to realize E=mc^2 is his own... and not one word of his 1905 paper is plagiarized; to say such an ignorant thing is unbecoming and disrespectful. I own a photo-lithograph of his hand-written 1905 paper, first draft with corrections.
Woaw there I didn't say his work was plagiarized I simply said as Newton put it he was standing on the back of giants!

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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Mon May 16, 2016 8:16 pm

hippy wrote:58% Business
40% Art and Design
36% Celebrity
34% Teacher
32% Medicine / Doctor
32% Sport
31% Law
28% Engineering
26% Inventor
20% Hair / Beauty
15% Scientist
12% Trades

I imagine a lot comes down to what a "scientist" is.
Engineer and inventor and scientist are kind of along similar lines although the first two are concrete. Sport and celebrity is pure fantasy, the wants to work with hair, I don't know about that. The art stuff, I guess when the robots are doing all the work, the only work left will be art. Personally, I plan to throw paint against a wall, unless that's already been done.

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EimGhey
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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Mon May 16, 2016 8:21 pm

I guess when the robots are doing all the work, the only work left will be art.


The way the Dadaist wanted it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJICH4R9n8w

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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Mon May 16, 2016 8:24 pm

EimGhey wrote:[Woaw there I didn't say his work was plagiarized I simply said
You said: "There are even claims he plagiarized".
as Newton put it he was standing on the back of giants!
There are claims he said that in a sarcastic drawl. There are even claims that he burnt the only known picture of Robert Hooke forcing the Royal Society to use a shot of Tom Cruise in Risky Business.

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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Mon May 16, 2016 8:31 pm

stderr wrote:
EimGhey wrote:[Woaw there I didn't say his work was plagiarized I simply said
You said: "There are even claims he plagiarized".
Stating there are claims is not the same as stating you believe those claims.. I said they were a Conspiracy Theory and it a popular one at that but not true!
stderr wrote:
as Newton put it he was standing on the back of giants!
There are claims he said that in a sarcastic drawl. There are even claims that he burnt the only known picture of Robert Hooke forcing the Royal Society to use a shot of Tom Cruise in Risky Business.
I don't know much more about Newton then I know of Tom Cruise so whatever! :ugeek:

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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Mon May 16, 2016 9:39 pm

hippy,

Wait a minute:

58% Business
40% Art and Design
36% Celebrity
34% Teacher
32% Medicine / Doctor
32% Sport
31% Law
28% Engineering
26% Inventor
20% Hair / Beauty
15% Scientist
12% Trades

Adding all that up I get 364%

Clearly this is nonsense.

I think the problem is the idea that there is a difference between "art" and "science/maths".

I'm very sure this is not true.

Listen to any mathematician enthusing about the beauty of some equation or proof. It's all heady emotional stuff.

As Dirac said:

"This result is too beautiful to be false; it is more important to have beauty in one's equations than to have them fit experiment"

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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Mon May 16, 2016 10:12 pm

Haha, good spot on the percentages Heater - I guess the respondents could tick more than one box in that survey.

I would like to see that Dirac quote in context, but it doesn't sound like the words of someone working in science. Could well come out the mouth of a mathematician though (but afaicr Dirac had an engineering background before entering theoretical physics).

Reminds me of the discussion between Hoyle & Feyman in Take the World From Another Point of View:
FEYNMAN: It is interesting that in many other sciences there is a historical question, like in geology – the question of how did the earth evolve to the present condition. In biology – how did the various species evolve to get to be the way they are? But the one field which has not admitted any evolutionary question is physics. Here are the laws, we say. Here are the laws today. How did they get that way? – we don't even think of it that way. We think: It has always been like that, the same laws – and we try to explain the universe that way. So it might turn out that they are not the same all the time and that there is a historical, evolutionary question.

HOYLE: But how do you see it going? It is hard to speculate.

FEYNMAN: You're the speculator. You and I think differently. I think of the possibilities, but I am afraid to put things in. When I see the dark, I always think of the dark as too big for me to guess at. It is not much use in guessing. But you are different, and I would like to discuss with you sometime how you do that, because I am really a little afraid to make specific guesses. I am afraid to make specific guesses because the moment I make that guess I can see seven other alternatives – so, since I see these other alternatives, I don't know which one to piddle with.

HOYLE: My choice is very simple. I don't set any requirement that the answer be right. It is just what I am interested in. That's the difference.

FEYNMAN: That's the difference. I am not trying to find out how nature could be but how nature is. See what's right.

HOYLE: Well, I don't think you'll ever find it, you see. I –

FEYNMAN: Your idea is to find out what nature could be.

HOYLE: No, no – what I think is interesting.

FEYNMAN: Even if it's wrong?!
Science necessitates that experiment is involved as the ultimate arbiter of truth.

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EimGhey
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Re: BP on where STEM education is going wrong

Mon May 16, 2016 10:19 pm

Science necessitates that experiment is involved as the ultimate arbiter of truth.
I don't like were this is going.. This sounds like the part were someone says, "Evolution is just a theory!"

Are you sure you got it right.... :twisted:

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