fruitoftheloom
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$35++ MiQi Rockchip RK3288 Development Board

Mon Apr 18, 2016 10:23 pm

MiQi Rockchip RK3288 Development Board using Raspberry Pi Form Factor to Sell for $35 and Up

http://www.cnx-software.com/2016/04/18/ ... -35-and-up
Thinking outside the box is better than burying your head in the sand...

mathboy4life
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Re: $35++ MiQi Rockchip RK3288 Development Board

Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:15 am

Looks good but what i really like about these type chinese boards is that they give you eMMC flash storage compare to the raspberry pi whereas i would need to buy a sd card. If Ebon adds emmc to raspberry pi i think he can blow the competition out the water. Is there a way to add emmc on a raspberry pi? I also understand that emmc is faster.

W. H. Heydt
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Re: $35++ MiQi Rockchip RK3288 Development Board

Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:13 am

mathboy4life wrote:Looks good but what i really like about these type chinese boards is that they give you eMMC flash storage compare to the raspberry pi whereas i would need to buy a sd card. If Ebon adds emmc to raspberry pi i think he can blow the competition out the water. Is there a way to add emmc on a raspberry pi? I also understand that emmc is faster.
You can have what you wish for. Get a Compute Module. It has on-board eMMC.

stderr
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Re: $35++ MiQi Rockchip RK3288 Development Board

Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:47 am

mathboy4life wrote:Looks good but what i really like about these type chinese boards is that they give you eMMC flash storage compare to the raspberry pi whereas i would need to buy a sd card.
If there is onboard flash for booting, it should be jumper protected so that it cannot be written to by malevolent processes or operators. The capacity to securely boot from the network, however, would solve a lot of issues including cost of sdcards and gang updating of systems. A small protected boot flash could support that or support whatever else would fit.
If Ebon adds emmc to raspberry pi i think he can blow the competition out the water.
What does "blow the competition out the water" mean to some group that is already blowing the competition out of the water by selling vastly more product than everyone else combined?

fruitoftheloom
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Re: $35++ MiQi Rockchip RK3288 Development Board

Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:17 am

Thinking outside the box is better than burying your head in the sand...

cjan
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Re: $35++ MiQi Rockchip RK3288 Development Board

Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:27 am

want one, 2g+8G=$45

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peba
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Re: $35++ MiQi Rockchip RK3288 Development Board

Thu May 12, 2016 7:08 pm


Heater
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Re: $35++ MiQi Rockchip RK3288 Development Board

Thu May 12, 2016 8:40 pm

Whoever,
If Ebon adds emmc to raspberry pi i think he can blow the competition out the water.
So apart from selling 10 or a 100 or 1000 times more units than the new guys on the block, how much more "blown out of the water" do you want?

I would like to think that if nobody ever bought a Raspi again it would be OK. They showed what can be done and the world followed.

But, until such time that such good support is available for all the copy cats we are not there yet.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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EimGhey
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Re: $35++ MiQi Rockchip RK3288 Development Board

Sun May 15, 2016 12:49 am

My question is... can it run Doom? :ugeek: And I know I have posted that in a few other threads already but I'm special.. My mommy told me... :lol:

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bitbank
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Re: $35++ MiQi Rockchip RK3288 Development Board

Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:07 pm

mathboy4life wrote:Looks good but what i really like about these type chinese boards is that they give you eMMC flash storage compare to the raspberry pi whereas i would need to buy a sd card. If Ebon adds emmc to raspberry pi i think he can blow the competition out the water. Is there a way to add emmc on a raspberry pi? I also understand that emmc is faster.
I thought the same thing - that the Pi's speed was very limited by using an SD card for storage. This assumption is not quite correct. The Pi's speed is more limited by the I/O choices and the chipset. The wifi/usb/sdcard are all slow because of how they're connected to the CPU. I did an experiment to confirm this. I have a Chromebook Flip which uses the Rockchip RK3288 (Quad core Cortex-A17 @ 1.8 Ghz). I installed Kali Linux on an SD card and the speed of the system is quite impressive. The CPU is obviously much faster than the RPi3, but even compiling code on the SD card runs much faster than the RPI3 (same SD card). Wifi transfers go faster, everything goes faster. If you just need a fast ARM system for development work, the Chromebook Flip would be a good choice as a decent "ARM laptop".
The fastest code is none at all :)

fruitoftheloom
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Re: $35++ MiQi Rockchip RK3288 Development Board

Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:47 pm

bitbank wrote:
mathboy4life wrote:Looks good but what i really like about these type chinese boards is that they give you eMMC flash storage compare to the raspberry pi whereas i would need to buy a sd card. If Ebon adds emmc to raspberry pi i think he can blow the competition out the water. Is there a way to add emmc on a raspberry pi? I also understand that emmc is faster.
I thought the same thing - that the Pi's speed was very limited by using an SD card for storage. This assumption is not quite correct. The Pi's speed is more limited by the I/O choices and the chipset. The wifi/usb/sdcard are all slow because of how they're connected to the CPU. I did an experiment to confirm this. I have a Chromebook Flip which uses the Rockchip RK3288 (Quad core Cortex-A17 @ 1.8 Ghz). I installed Kali Linux on an SD card and the speed of the system is quite impressive. The CPU is obviously much faster than the RPi3, but even compiling code on the SD card runs much faster than the RPI3 (same SD card). Wifi transfers go faster, everything goes faster. If you just need a fast ARM system for development work, the Chromebook Flip would be a good choice as a decent "ARM laptop".
Actually the Raspberry Pi SoC is a VPU with an ARM CPU attached, in actual fact the first SoC's produced by Broadcom had no ARM CPU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VideoCore


All the ""clones" use a more traditional approach of ARM CPU and Graphics GPU.

Therefore any benchmarks will not accurately give a comparison.

At the end of the day does one buy a product with limitations and great support, or buy a supposedly better SBC which does not have the Support ??
Thinking outside the box is better than burying your head in the sand...

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bitbank
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Re: $35++ MiQi Rockchip RK3288 Development Board

Thu Nov 24, 2016 4:20 pm

Therefore any benchmarks will not accurately give a comparison.
This is not necessarily a good argument. If you need to get actual work done on a system (compiling / working with data / file handling / numerical processing), then the benchmarks do reveal useful info. I do performance optimization work for Google and have been using a Raspberry Pi3 for prototyping/development. It wastes lots of my time to wait for compiles to finish. On the Chromebook, I can do the same work (32-bit ARM development) in much less time. Support is somewhat irrelevant for my work. I need Linux + GNU tools and that's it. I realize I'm not the typical customer, but there are a whole spectrum of uses for these boards.
The fastest code is none at all :)

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Re: $35++ MiQi Rockchip RK3288 Development Board

Thu Nov 24, 2016 4:37 pm

bitbank wrote:
Therefore any benchmarks will not accurately give a comparison.
This is not necessarily a good argument. If you need to get actual work done on a system (compiling / working with data / file handling / numerical processing), then the benchmarks do reveal useful info. I do performance optimization work for Google and have been using a Raspberry Pi3 for prototyping/development. It wastes lots of my time to wait for compiles to finish. On the Chromebook, I can do the same work (32-bit ARM development) in much less time. Support is somewhat irrelevant for my work. I need Linux + GNU tools and that's it. I realize I'm not the typical customer, but there are a whole spectrum of uses for these boards.
That's also not a typical use case. By comparison (also not typical uses), one of my major uses for Pis is to have volunteers entered name and address data into a convention registration database. The setup uses PuTTY to run a process on the "server" where the database resides. Pi1B boards did this okay. I have since moved to Pi2B boards (I was going to use B+ because of the improved power handling, then the Pi2B launched, so...why not?). The backend is a Cubieboard 2 because it has a SATA-II interface built in, which I have connected to a 60GB SSD. I am considering switching the backend systems (there's a hot backup using a replicated database) to the CM3L in a WD SATA adapter despite the issue of limited I/O bandwidth over the USB 2 bus. This is why I'd like to see the next generation of Pi have USB 3. Give me a "Pi4B" or "CM4/CM4L" with USB 3 and I'd convert to that as fast as I could set it up.

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bitbank
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Re: $35++ MiQi Rockchip RK3288 Development Board

Sun Nov 27, 2016 2:14 pm

This is why I'd like to see the next generation of Pi have USB 3. Give me a "Pi4B" or "CM4/CM4L" with USB 3 and I'd convert to that as fast as I could set it up.
This is really wishful thinking because even a USB 3 glued onto a RPi board would still be slow. Pi's can't even hit the maximum throughput of USB 2. I'm not sure exactly what design choices put the Pi in this situation, but the I/O is a major bottleneck and it seems to have something to do with their choice of Broadcom SoCs. I just tested some wifi speeds on my RPi3 versus the RockChip Chromebook/Linux. The maximum download speed I can get on my RPI3 is around 500KB/s while on the RockChip I was seeing > 5000KB/s (these tests were writing the data to the same type of microSD card, same distance from the router).
The fastest code is none at all :)

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rpdom
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Re: $35++ MiQi Rockchip RK3288 Development Board

Sun Nov 27, 2016 3:50 pm

bitbank wrote:I'm not sure exactly what design choices put the Pi in this situation, but the I/O is a major bottleneck and it seems to have something to do with their choice of Broadcom SoCs.
Could it be something to do with the fact that it was designed by Broadcom employees with help from Broadcom?

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Re: $35++ MiQi Rockchip RK3288 Development Board

Sun Nov 27, 2016 4:44 pm

bitbank wrote:
This is why I'd like to see the next generation of Pi have USB 3. Give me a "Pi4B" or "CM4/CM4L" with USB 3 and I'd convert to that as fast as I could set it up.
This is really wishful thinking because even a USB 3 glued onto a RPi board would still be slow. Pi's can't even hit the maximum throughput of USB 2. I'm not sure exactly what design choices put the Pi in this situation, but the I/O is a major bottleneck and it seems to have something to do with their choice of Broadcom SoCs. I just tested some wifi speeds on my RPi3 versus the RockChip Chromebook/Linux. The maximum download speed I can get on my RPI3 is around 500KB/s while on the RockChip I was seeing > 5000KB/s (these tests were writing the data to the same type of microSD card, same distance from the router).
Heh... I'd be thrilled with 500KB/s transfer rates. I think you mean 500Kb/s. There is a difference... I do find your claim of 5GB/s, even if it's actually 5Gb/s suspect. Are you flushing the caches before getting your timing data? If not, you're not really timing the devices but the CPU and memory.

I've run tests with both the WD PiDrive and a SATA-III SSD (using appropriate cables). I have an SBC (Roseapple Pi) that has a native USB 3 port. It gets about 80MB/s on a PiDrive (which is probably limited by the drive) and about 125MB/s on the SSD. Those figures are more than acceptable for my use, hence my position that USB 3 would relieve the I/O bottleneck I'm seeing.

I note that you are looking at SD transfer rates and wireless speeds. I'm looking at mass storage speeds and in my use case, it's a completely wired network with relatively small amounts of traffic on it (I could easily live with 10Mb/s and 100Mb/s Ethernet is--essentially--a luxury). We appear to be looking at significantly different metrics.

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bitbank
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Re: $35++ MiQi Rockchip RK3288 Development Board

Sun Nov 27, 2016 4:55 pm

I'll clarify the numbers I posted. I used the normal convention of capital B to signify BYTES. I don't have wired ethernet handy, so I have to use wifi. With my RPi3, I can receive 500KB/s (five hundred kilo bytes (not bits) per second) as a typical maximum. My router is capable of 300Mb/s (mega bits) but my internet connection is 50Mb/s. On the other ARM test device (RockChip chromebook), I can receive greater than 5000KB/s (5 mega bytes per second). This is about 10x the rate that the RPi3 can do with the same network and same destination SD card. I'm not the first to notice that the RPi boards are really slow at I/O. Everything internally is connected through the USB bus, so it probably has to do with receiving data over wifi and writing it to the SD card causes some contention for the limited speed USB bus.
The fastest code is none at all :)

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Re: $35++ MiQi Rockchip RK3288 Development Board

Sun Nov 27, 2016 6:29 pm

bitbank wrote:I'll clarify the numbers I posted. I used the normal convention of capital B to signify BYTES. I don't have wired ethernet handy, so I have to use wifi. With my RPi3, I can receive 500KB/s (five hundred kilo bytes (not bits) per second) as a typical maximum. My router is capable of 300Mb/s (mega bits) but my internet connection is 50Mb/s. On the other ARM test device (RockChip chromebook), I can receive greater than 5000KB/s (5 mega bytes per second). This is about 10x the rate that the RPi3 can do with the same network and same destination SD card. I'm not the first to notice that the RPi boards are really slow at I/O. Everything internally is connected through the USB bus, so it probably has to do with receiving data over wifi and writing it to the SD card causes some contention for the limited speed USB bus.
My profound apologies. My only excuse is that I replied rather early in the morning and I must have been foggier than I thought. I misread KB as MB.

So, yes, 500KB/s (about 5Mb/s) on a Pi3 sounds about right, a 5MB/s (about 50Mb/s) is pretty unremarkable for a "PC grade" CPU/WiFi system.

Still...the numbers I gave in MB/s for attached mass storage devices really are MB/s.

Bear in mind that *everything* on a Pi (except for the built in WiFi/BT on a Pi3B) goes through a single 480Mb/s USB 2 channel, so one is never going to see 60MB/s I/O on any Pi, so (pulling up my records), a Pi3B getting just under 36MB/s write and just under 32MB/s read speeds on a PiDrive is...respectable. The corresponding figures on the USB3 port on a Roseapple Pi are 80Mb/s and 73MB/s. Note that the RAPi is using much less capable CPU cores, so I would expect a USB 3 equipped version of a Pi to do *at* *least* as well, if not better. On the whole, I think the Broadcom chips and the RPF software and getting decent performance out of USB 2, especially considering that there is only a single USB 2 channel on the chip.

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