gsgs
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could the same be done with x86

Thu Dec 17, 2015 8:08 am

if they had used x86 chips, what would the raspberry pi 2 have costed
in a similar variant ?

your estimates

my wild guess: double as much (well worth it for me)

a kit with pi2b,cable,power supply, keyboard, mouse,coolers, case, booting card
etc. costs ~$100
so the extra $35 would be only 35% more in total

will it be done ?

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Re: could the same be done with x86

Thu Dec 17, 2015 8:11 am

gsgs wrote:if they had used x86 chips, what would the raspberry pi 2 have costed
in a similar variant ?

your estimates

my wild guess: double as much (well worth it for me)

a kit with pi2b,cable,power supply, keyboard, mouse,coolers, case, booting card
etc. costs ~$100
so the extra $35 would be only 35% more in total

will it be done ?
Other Developers have created x86 SBC's the RPF do not have to even consider:

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=124969#p862636
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Re: could the same be done with x86

Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:35 am

x86 chips are larger, use more power, generally have no GPIO, camera interface, display interface etc. ARM chips originally destined for mobile are by design cheap, have lots of interfacing possibilities, and are very low power.

So it's not simply a question of cost, but of feature set.
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Re: could the same be done with x86

Thu Dec 17, 2015 12:53 pm

searching for "mini computer" at ebay, I found the new "Wintel Box"

Euro167, Wintel Box Mini PC Quad Core Computer Windows 10 & Android 4.4 HDMI +
keyboard, 2GB RAM, 4x1.8GHz(Intel Z3735F), 32GB HD
1micro USB, 2 normal USB, WLAN,6w, cardreader, small display on the keyboard ?
size ? ~12x12x2 cm, not much bigger than the rpi2b

-----------------------------------
review here:
http://www.cnx-software.com/2015/04/27/ ... w8-review/
he also mentions MeLE PCG03

then I found that windows 10 runs on a raspberry ?!
http://www.techrepublic.com/article/win ... d-to-know/
However, this is no ordinary version of Windows ...
Windows 10 on the Pi should be able to run any "Universal" Windows app.
Last edited by gsgs on Thu Dec 17, 2015 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: could the same be done with x86

Thu Dec 17, 2015 1:00 pm

And look what it lacks just as jamesh said, GPIO, camera, display output. Higher power.
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Re: could the same be done with x86

Thu Dec 17, 2015 1:13 pm

gsgs wrote: then I found that windows 10 runs on a raspberry ?!
Yes Windows 10 IoT Core, there is also a sub forum here: viewforum.php?f=105
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Re: could the same be done with x86

Thu Dec 17, 2015 1:23 pm

gsgs wrote:
then I found that windows 10 runs on a raspberry ?!
It's called Windows but any resemblance to Windows on an Intel is 100% coincidental. It is not the full desktop Windows that you know and hate on your laptop. It's a lash-up of WinRT from Microsoft's ventures into cell phones.
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Re: could the same be done with x86

Thu Dec 17, 2015 1:25 pm

kusti8 wrote:And look what it lacks just as jamesh said, GPIO, camera, display output. Higher power.
Those Bay Trail Z3735 x86 socs are designed for use in tablets, so they will have camera, display and most likely some gpio. So it may be possible to produce something along the lines of our familiar single board computers with one, but they generally end up in tablets or mini PCs.

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Re: could the same be done with x86

Thu Dec 17, 2015 1:30 pm

gregeric wrote:
kusti8 wrote:And look what it lacks just as jamesh said, GPIO, camera, display output. Higher power.
Those Bay Trail Z3735 x86 socs are designed for use in tablets, so they will have camera, display and most likely some gpio. So it may be possible to produce something along the lines of our familiar single board computers with one, but they generally end up in tablets or mini PCs.
http://up-shop.org

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/13 ... everything
Last edited by fruitoftheloom on Thu Dec 17, 2015 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: could the same be done with x86

Thu Dec 17, 2015 2:22 pm

I'd expected the raspberry fans would rather argue with the price ,

and thus the resulting popularity in schools,students

and thus the existence of a community and forum like this

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Re: could the same be done with x86

Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:35 pm

gsgs wrote:I'd expected the raspberry fans would rather argue with the price ,

and thus the resulting popularity in schools,students

and thus the existence of a community and forum like this
Well, you get what you pay for. Raspberry Pi's are very cheap, because they use older technology ARM chips. There are always going to be more expensive devices, that will probably be better although that is not guaranteed..
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Re: could the same be done with x86

Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:04 pm

Note that most intel based small SBC's use I2C based GPIO (read slow) - including the Intel Galileo.
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Re: could the same be done with x86

Sun Mar 06, 2016 6:13 pm

That what you are talking about is more than invented. It is named Intel Galileo.

So if you want to do prototiping in an x86 environment... you got the answer: https://software.intel.com/en-us/iot/home

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Re: could the same be done with x86

Sun Mar 06, 2016 6:20 pm

jesus_malaga wrote:That what you are talking about is more than invented. It is named Intel Galileo.
There are a lot of these sorts of development boards because Intel has certainly been trying to get involved in computers beyond the desktop. The problem is, what do you gain? If it costs more, and it almost always does, you've got that, but you also need a full copy of Windows and that is often more expensive than the board itself. Not that you'd run the GUI Windows with the Galileo anyway but without it running x86 lacks any purpose at all.

Given the current licensing scheme, I think that one Windows machine, or better yet a Linux box running Windows in virtual machines, makes the most sense for situations where you actually need Windows. But the truth is that most people mostly use their computers as a means to access the web and that basically can be handled with the Linux (or whatever) version of Firefox (or whatever). So most people really don't need a Windows machine, they just think they do. Of course that's changing as people are getting used to Android and now they ask, "Can it run Android?" People haven't figured out that the free software that largely doesn't have spyware in it is pretty much a Linux or BSD or something similar type of thing. Windows and Android have reached a point where using downloaded software for them that isn't filled with spyware is difficult or even impossible.

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Re: could the same be done with x86

Sun Mar 06, 2016 6:58 pm

There are some x86 boards, generally more power-hungry and always more expensive than Pi.

But a plasible contender is the http://www.up-board.org/ "Up board" which despite a stupid name, might actually be a Pi-like x86.

Still of course, way more expensive and currently in the vapourware phase after apparently successful kickstarter (can they make it? Will they make any more after the initial batch? Who knows?)

If up-board ever appears, it's a nice step up from a Pi (although, less of a step up, now we have Pi3 :) )

Mark

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Re: could the same be done with x86

Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:13 pm

MarkR wrote:There are some x86 boards, generally more power-hungry and always more expensive than Pi.

But a plasible contender is the http://www.up-board.org/ "Up board" which despite a stupid name, might actually be a Pi-like x86.

Still of course, way more expensive and currently in the vapourware phase after apparently successful kickstarter (can they make it? Will they make any more after the initial batch? Who knows?)

If up-board ever appears, it's a nice step up from a Pi (although, less of a step up, now we have Pi3 :) )

Mark
Yes I put a response in this thread with a link to 2 x86 boards:

viewtopic.php?f=62&t=129251#p863747

Also the Jaguar Board http://www.jaguarboard.org
Last edited by fruitoftheloom on Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: could the same be done with x86

Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:13 pm

Is this a continuation of the now locked "pi vs. tablet" by gsts which became "x86 vs ARM" debate in the general discussions area?

This is the way I see it:

1) Intel tries to make a much money as possible by making processors and other chips. They have had great success with processors for PCs. They did in the past have some nice micro-controllers for embedded systems. They have had failures like the 432 and 860. They even used to make ARM chips at one point. They have tried every angle.

2) Apple tries to make as much money as possible with their supposedly easy to use computers. They don't care about processor architecture having switched from 6502 to 68000, to PowerPC, to Intel over the years. Now ARM on iOS. Apple is all about the ease of use.

3) Nokia, Ericsson and others try/tried to make as much money as possible out of mobile phones. Which is where ARM got it's foot in the door. So to speak.

4) Since then, Apple and a billion Chinese clones try to make as much money out of tablets.

In the middle of all this:

A) 20 years ago a young Linus Torvalds wanted an OS for his 386 PC that neither MS or Apple could supply. Hence the wonderful world of Linux and the Open Source software movement.

B) A few years ago Eben Upton noticed that young guys arriving at university to study CS had no idea about even the basics of programming. They were starting from scratch and wasting a year learning sequence, selection, iteration. What is a variable. And so on.

This, in contrast to the 80's generation who had been programming their Sinclair Spectrums and C64's since they were 10. They knew how to program when they arrived at uni aged 18 or 19.

So Eben dreamed up the Pi to solve this problem. By chance he then worked Broadcom who seem to be willing to help make it happen. And of of course it could leverage decades of Free and Open Source software. Most of which runs fine on Linux.

Bingo! A big hit.

Someone correct me if I have any facts wrong here.

Bottom line is. Anyone can suggest anything they like, use x86, use Windows, why not support MSDOS....

Fine, show us how to do that. Make it. The world is waiting.

Otherwise it's all pointless speculation.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Re: could the same be done with x86

Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:20 pm

Yes Heater, I concur, also the OP seems to be the king of hyperbole, I will not report thread, someone's else's turn :D
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Re: could the same be done with x86

Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:30 pm

It's amazing how simple something can seem when a person has done no research and puts very little effort into actually thinking about it. My homemade spaceship takes off for Alpha Centauri in the morning. I haven't even started designing it yet, but I'm still going anyway. What could possibly go wrong?! :lol:
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Re: could the same be done with x86

Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:50 pm

GTR2Fan,
My homemade spaceship takes off for Alpha Centauri in the morning. I haven't even started designing it yet,
Excellent idea. You should put it up on kickstarter. I'm sure you can build a community around that concept.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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Re: could the same be done with x86

Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:52 pm

Heater wrote:GTR2Fan,
My homemade spaceship takes off for Alpha Centauri in the morning. I haven't even started designing it yet,
Excellent idea. You should put it up on kickstarter. I'm sure you can build a community around that concept.
Does the Spaceship have room for a Little Pony :?:
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Re: could the same be done with x86

Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:55 pm

MarkR wrote:But a plasible contender is the http://www.up-board.org/ "Up board" which despite a stupid name, might actually be a Pi-like x86.
It's kind of cool that they are naming their SBC development boards after types of quarks. I can't wait for the Strange board.

And in fairness to the Up people, Raspberry Pi isn't exactly not a stupid name either except when compared to Banana Pi or especially Lemon Pi. The latter shows an amazing lack of cultural awareness and the former is just desperate, I think. But it does remind me of the hilarious computer science professor with the pony tail talking about the kid who said he knew how to spell "banana" but he just didn't know when to stop.

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Re: could the same be done with x86

Sun Mar 06, 2016 8:02 pm

Heater wrote:GTR2Fan,
My homemade spaceship takes off for Alpha Centauri in the morning. I haven't even started designing it yet,
Excellent idea. You should put it up on kickstarter. I'm sure you can build a community around that concept.
Wow! What a brilliant idea! I was wondering how I'd start the barbecue briquette powered Stirling engine that's going to power it. A kickstarter attached to a flint and a large pair of bellows should do it. Sorted!
fruitoftheloom wrote:Does the Spaceship have room for a Little Pony :?:
Only My Little Pony.
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Re: could the same be done with x86

Sun Mar 06, 2016 8:10 pm

fruitoftheloom wrote:Does the Spaceship have room for a Little Pony :?:
No, for that location it needs to be a Centaur. :)

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Re: could the same be done with x86

Sun Mar 06, 2016 8:17 pm

"Raspberry Pi" is not stupid at all.

We still have "Apple" computers. How silly is that?

In the past we had "Tulip" and all kind of silly names.

The <random fruit name> Pi guys are just pathetically sad imitators. Lacking in imagination.

The up-board at least has interesting naming. Clearly they are following the board format and GPIO layout set by the Pi.

It's like the S100 bus all over again!

Good luck to them all I say.
Memory in C++ is a leaky abstraction .

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