timrowledge
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:31 pm

stderr wrote:[ If you want 64 bit, that's pretty recent in ARM, at least in widely used ARM. I'm also not sure that 64 bit and 1 gig is a good thing. I know that ARM has gone to some trouble to reduce the instruction code size with its tiny subset mode, so these are real issues. I feel that half a gig on 64 bit is, to be serious, ridiculous.
The ARM 64 instruction was created in around '09, so not that recent. The instruction set is still 32bit wide instructions. The v8 architecture specifies supporting the older v7 instructions as well, so you can run an older executable unchanged (I think; can't promise). v8 provides more registers as well as the wider register size. It cleans up the ISA which will make my life a bit easier when creating code generators. It can handle 64 or 32 bit addresses and data without any problem.
So the code size is unlikely to change much for the same source code, the data size only needs to change if you actually require 64 bit pointers or data.
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:07 pm

KS page is up....

They did a PR stunt. While all gone now, they offered 10 A64 models for $5 each as a nod to the Pi0.

In more interesting news about the KS campaign, for $29 you can get the board with 2GB RAM...and that makes it much more viable device, but doesn't carry an eye opening price.

Edit to add: To cover the bugaboo from back when the CHIP was in KS...US shipping is $7, pretty much everywhere else (I didn't check the *full* list) is $12. A post-pledge e-mail *appears* to indicate that if one orders additional boards after the KS campaign, they won't add more shipping charges.

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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Thu Dec 10, 2015 12:07 am

After a weekend in my study with KiCAD and a few datasheets, I'm sure I could also turn out a random SBC for $5 in units of 10 or less...

Eben would have my arse for trying to compete with Pi, though.
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Thu Dec 10, 2015 12:28 am

jdb wrote:After a weekend in my study with KiCAD and a few datasheets, I'm sure I could also turn out a random SBC for $5 in units of 10 or less...

Eben would have my arse for trying to compete with Pi, though.
I suspect it is a "loss leader". Just a stunt.

I did get word about one other feature I missed, though. The PINE boards have an RTC. On the other hand, only 2 USB2.0 ports is a bit disappointing. What do they think this is, 2012?

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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:15 am

W. H. Heydt wrote: On the other hand, only 2 USB2.0 ports is a bit disappointing. What do they think this is, 2012?
Whats wrong with that? I think two USB ports are enough. Give credit to these guys they made an awesome board. I believe they will hit 1 million in less than 30 days!
:twisted:
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:24 am

Lets hope they succeed so i can make my board and call it Pinewood64 and make money off their name. :lol:
:twisted:
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:22 am

expandables wrote:
W. H. Heydt wrote: On the other hand, only 2 USB2.0 ports is a bit disappointing. What do they think this is, 2012?
Whats wrong with that? I think two USB ports are enough. Give credit to these guys they made an awesome board. I believe they will hit 1 million in less than 30 days!
:twisted:
Keyboard, mouse, WiFi, USB stick...oops. That's 4 USB devices. So...you need a hub. The Pi community has already been through this issue. Notice that the B+ and Pi2B have 4 USB ports. Sure, the original Model B only had two...in 2012.

As for selling 1 million in 30 days...first catch your factory. That's about 2.5 times the peak production of Pis at the Sony factory in Wales. If they sell 300K in 6 months, they'll be doing very well, indeed, and that only has a chance if it launches with rock-solid software and excellent support--either "in house" or with a very large active community.

Consider that the Beagleboard/Beaglebone, as of Sept. 2015 had sold less than 270K boards in 6 years. Being generous, that might be 350K by now. Compare that to over 7 *million* Pis in under 4 years. And--so far as I can tell--the Beagleboards are the second best selling SBCs. When they get delivered (scheduled for May 2016, mostly) the CHIP will probably slot in at #3 by board count. All other boards are lost in the noise.

At present, the campaign has a bit under 4500 backers, taking a linear approximation (silly with this amount of data, but it's what there is), they might get pledges for 250K boards. Maybe. There is likely to be a lot less pledges after the initial surge and the final just-before-close surge. I'd tend to suspect that they have pledges for less than 100K boards.

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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:37 am

I think competition is good.

Rasberry Pi should make their own premium board a at a lower price then today. I for one wont buy Rasberry Pi2 when I can get a cheaper and better Pine64+ (For my needs)
Pine is better for both 32 and 64 bit. And has twice the RAM. Gigabith Ethernet. (referring to the webpage, waiting to se real worlds performance review)

Are Rasberry Pi so expsensive, since it is used to subsidize educational funds?

I think the best strategy for the Rasberry Pi foundation is to make low cost, and well supported hardware. With write ups on the webpage like now. And dont milk Rasberry Pi2 buyers so they can subsidies founding of school programs in UK.

Also producing and shipping from China should be more low cost then the same from UK.

(I realy dont know much about the raspberry foundation, tried to google, but could not find answer, saw some report about a Sony factory in UK making raspberry Pi)

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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Thu Dec 10, 2015 12:22 pm

Shipping is also a killer on this [well on the kickstarter]
when I first looked it had just made its target , now it is 6x over its target they will have problems in boxing them up for delivery ;) ]
if it survives I may grab one next year
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:10 pm

If they "deliver" and it's not vapourware (hopefully not) I'll buy the 2gb version next year.
Beagleboard is the second most selling sbc :lol: Then this has to be a terrible market to invest in.
:twisted:
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:17 pm

Psypro wrote:I think competition is good.
The RPF doesn't care much about competition the main goal is to get kids to be proactive in a sport called (programming). That's a smart idea because united kingdom's adolescences can venture into "adult hood" and make a next Silicon valley empire.
:twisted:
By thinking like an engineer you can create a raspberry pi.
Michael Jackson enthusiast.
I got the PI model B, B+ and PI 2 model B.
When will I get the A? I don't know.

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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:32 pm

Psypro wrote:I think competition is good.

Rasberry Pi should make their own premium board a at a lower price then today. I for one wont buy Rasberry Pi2 when I can get a cheaper and better Pine64+ (For my needs)
Pine is better for both 32 and 64 bit. And has twice the RAM. Gigabith Ethernet. (referring to the webpage, waiting to se real worlds performance review)

Are Rasberry Pi so expsensive, since it is used to subsidize educational funds?

I think the best strategy for the Rasberry Pi foundation is to make low cost, and well supported hardware. With write ups on the webpage like now. And dont milk Rasberry Pi2 buyers so they can subsidies founding of school programs in UK.

Also producing and shipping from China should be more low cost then the same from UK.

(I realy dont know much about the raspberry foundation, tried to google, but could not find answer, saw some report about a Sony factory in UK making raspberry Pi)
It's seems you have completely misunderstood the whole reason behind the Pi - Education. Also it's support - which is by far the best available for any SBC.

I'm also concerned that you seem to think that the Pi is 'expensive'. It isn't - it's very very VERY cheap. Compare it to a desktop, or laptop, or PS4, or Apple phone, or iPad. Very cheap indeed.

Also quite surprised that the single best selling computer for years and the well documented Charitable Foundation behind it doesn't seem to come up on a Google search. You would have thought that 7Million sold would have appeared on their radar at some point.

Still, if you want to put your money behind the Pine (or chip or any other SBC) that is entirely up to you.
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:50 pm

Psypro wrote: Also producing and shipping from China should be more low cost then the same from UK.
Another totally uninformed poster, the RPi is still made in China for the Aisan Markets..

BUT Sony UK in Wales were able to match the cost / quantity of the Chinese Manufacturers, therefore the RPi is a good price, good quality, and has more than a few years shelf life..

So maybe other SBC's are cheaper but how well are they made ??
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:10 pm

Well, I um'd and ah'd over this one, but in the end I backed the 2GB RAM one for $29.

I figured that the only reason really to get a 1.2Ghz 64 bit board is for busywork type things over hacker type things, so I figured get the ram and the gigabit Ethernet, it can replace my Pi2 in its server, and I get that to play with again :-D
I had the idea for a single board computer in every seat on airplanes... but it all just seemed a bit Pi in the Sky!

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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:20 pm

Psypro wrote:I think competition is good.
I agree...and any number of companies are finding out that the RPF is pretty stiff competition.
Rasberry Pi should make their own premium board a at a lower price then today. I for one wont buy Rasberry Pi2 when I can get a cheaper and better Pine64+ (For my needs)
Pine is better for both 32 and 64 bit. And has twice the RAM. Gigabith Ethernet. (referring to the webpage, waiting to se real worlds performance review)
Support... Choice of OSes... There are factors other than raw price in play. You can only get "twice the RAM" (2GB vs. 1GB on a Pi2B) if you go for the $29 model. The $15 PINE has the same amount of RAM as...a $5 Pi0.
Are Rasberry Pi so expsensive, since it is used to subsidize educational funds?
Say, what? Before the first Pi was launched, the dominant maker/hobbtist SBC was the Beagleboard (launched in 2009) at a cost of $90. The $35 Pi was a real shock. Beagleboard "countered" with the Beaglebone Black at $45, and the current version of that board is $55. Other companies--Hardkernel, Cubie, whoever is behind the Banana Pi, Lemon Pi, Roseapple Pi--have struggled to either meet or beat the RPFs price, or tried to come close on price while beating the Pi on performance. The Pi has still become the "800-lb. gorilla" of SBCs. Support (through the large and active community) and the organization goals appear to have made a big difference.
I think the best strategy for the Rasberry Pi foundation is to make low cost, and well supported hardware. With write ups on the webpage like now. And dont milk Rasberry Pi2 buyers so they can subsidies founding of school programs in UK.
The price of a Pi2B, let alone a Pi0 (just how much profit do you think anyone is getting on a $5 SBC, anyway?), isn't "milking" anyone. At least you know that money over and above cost and profit at the distributor level is going back to a worthy goal--education, and not just education in the UK. If the RPF--a UK charity--wants to put more money into UK projects than into projects elsewhere, can you blame them? And if you object...then don't buy Pis. Of course, if you don't buy and use Pis, then these Forums won't be able to help you when you have a problem.
Also producing and shipping from China should be more low cost then the same from UK.
Not necessarily. Sure, labor costs are generally lower in China (though they're climbing, which is why Chinese companies are outsourcing elsewhere), and a lack of some more "enlightened" labor laws and anti-pollution and enforcement of the laws there are reduce costs, but in the UK factory there is (on average) a better educated workforce and more thorough factory automation. Shipping costs? Well...if you're near China, then shipping will cost less. If you're in Europe or North America (two areas that dominate Pi sales), it'll be cheaper to ship from Wales.
(I realy dont know much about the raspberry foundation, tried to google, but could not find answer, saw some report about a Sony factory in UK making raspberry Pi)
It would appear that some reading is in order. You might start with the FAQ and About links on this very page, then look up "educational non-profit". Unlike other SBC designers/makers, the RPF will not be even attempting to enrich individuals beyond reasonable salaries. It is *not* going to turn Eben Upton into yet another tech billionaire (which is not to say that I think he doesn't deserve it). And--yes--the Sony contract manufacturing plant in Wales is where most Pis are made these days. Pis have been made in China over the years in a variety of numbers for a variety of reasons.

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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:26 pm

jjex22 wrote:Well, I um'd and ah'd over this one, but in the end I backed the 2GB RAM one for $29.
So did I. And before anyone looks at me oddly, I already own 10 Pi2Bs, 3 B+, and 2 A+. I've lost count of the number of Model B Pis I have...something over 12, I think. What I don't have (darnit) is a Model A. Anyone have a Model A they don't want? I'll replace it with any current model of Pi you want.
I figured that the only reason really to get a 1.2Ghz 64 bit board is for busywork type things over hacker type things, so I figured get the ram and the gigabit Ethernet, it can replace my Pi2 in its server, and I get that to play with again :-D
I'm getting it for test and evaluation. It is "feature poor" in a couple of critical areas for things I would otherwise use it for.

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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:33 pm

jamesh wrote:
Psypro wrote:I think competition is good.

Rasberry Pi should make their own premium board a at a lower price then today. I for one wont buy Rasberry Pi2 when I can get a cheaper and better Pine64+ (For my needs)
Pine is better for both 32 and 64 bit. And has twice the RAM. Gigabith Ethernet. (referring to the webpage, waiting to se real worlds performance review)

Are Rasberry Pi so expsensive, since it is used to subsidize educational funds?

I think the best strategy for the Rasberry Pi foundation is to make low cost, and well supported hardware. With write ups on the webpage like now. And dont milk Rasberry Pi2 buyers so they can subsidies founding of school programs in UK.

Also producing and shipping from China should be more low cost then the same from UK.

(I realy dont know much about the raspberry foundation, tried to google, but could not find answer, saw some report about a Sony factory in UK making raspberry Pi)
It's seems you have completely misunderstood the whole reason behind the Pi - Education. Also it's support - which is by far the best available for any SBC.

I'm also concerned that you seem to think that the Pi is 'expensive'. It isn't - it's very very VERY cheap. Compare it to a desktop, or laptop, or PS4, or Apple phone, or iPad. Very cheap indeed.

Also quite surprised that the single best selling computer for years and the well documented Charitable Foundation behind it doesn't seem to come up on a Google search. You would have thought that 7Million sold would have appeared on their radar at some point.

Still, if you want to put your money behind the Pine (or chip or any other SBC) that is entirely up to you.
I want to learn more about the goals and priories of the Raspberry Pi foundation.
I see a lot of people involved with Rasberry Pi volunteer, cool.

"RASPBERRY PI FOUNDATION

The Raspberry Pi Foundation is a registered educational charity (registration number 1129409) based in the UK. Our Foundation’s goal is to advance the education of adults and children, particularly in the field of computers, computer science and related subjects. See our stories page for more information about the Foundation’s charitable work."

Then head over to Freebsd
https://www.freebsdfoundation.org/about

But you also have:
https://www.freebsdfoundation.org/documents/#financials

Could you help me find these for Rasberry Pi, I tried google. Could not find.

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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:37 pm

Retired disgracefully.....
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:50 pm

Also producing and shipping from China should be more low cost then the same from UK.
[/quote]
Not necessarily. Sure, labor costs are generally lower in China (though they're climbing, which is why Chinese companies are outsourcing elsewhere), and a lack of some more "enlightened" labor laws and anti-pollution and enforcement of the laws there are reduce costs, but in the UK factory there is (on average) a better educated workforce and more thorough factory automation. Shipping costs? Well...if you're near China, then shipping will cost less. If you're in Europe or North America (two areas that dominate Pi sales), it'll be cheaper to ship from Wales.
[quote]

Thank your well thought out replay. You manage to balanse friendliness, and a different opinion. I made me want to contribute a little research.

UK Royal Mail
100g £2.45 EU / £3.15 UK W
(http://www.royalmail.com/sites/default/ ... h-2015.pdf)

China mail
100g 0,7 £ World
(The postage rate of surface mail is CNY 7 up to 100g and CNY 4.5 for each additional 100g or part thereof.
http://www.travelchinaguide.com/essenti ... e/rate.htm)

And thank you all who contribute your spare time for Raspberry Pi. I own 2 x rasbbery, and am a happy user. (1 vpn server, 1 waiting for real microsd card, got a fake one)
I might have provoked something hear, but I just hope so much Raspberry Pi foundation responds to the competition with raspberry pi3! (And do any necessary strategizing/restructuring to stay competitive, people working for free, even the Chinese cant beat that)

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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:56 pm

Psypro wrote: Then head over to Freebsd
https://www.freebsdfoundation.org/about

But you also have:
https://www.freebsdfoundation.org/documents/#financials

Could you help me find these for Rasberry Pi, I tried google. Could not find.
There's a world of difference between an American organisation and a European/UK one.

http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Sh ... er=1129409
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:09 pm

Psypro wrote:Also producing and shipping from China should be more low cost then the same from UK.
As UK Charity the Foundation wanted to make the boards in the UK. But initially they were made in China to do exactly as you suggest, get the price down, but it turned out that a better quality product could be made at the Sony factory in Wales for the same price. So they are now made in Wales. This have proven time and time again to be a great move. The quality is fantastic, and problems can easily be sorted out. This keeps a certain amount of profit in the UK, helping the UK balance of trade, and also gives a chance for local schools to actually go and visit the production line (as I have done, its fantastic).

As for the Foundation responding to competition, they have successfully sold 7M Pi's and that's considerable more than any of the competitors. They have upgraded from the single core Pi1 with 256MB, to 512, to the quad core Pi2 with 1gb, and now have launched the Zero at $5, lower than any competitors. The upgrade paths means the same software still works on all the Pi range. Are you sure that it's the Foundation that needs to keep up? And not the other way round? Do you think they are sitting back, just watching the market and counting the money, or do you think they have a engineering design team continually developing new products? (Clue, it's the second one, fully paid up, not volunteers)
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:12 pm

Thanks! This was what I was looking for.

Suggestion:
Dont hide this gold. We use opensource, and wish for Soc manufacturers to pratics opensource. I think Raspberry Pi would be better served if this information was more open, shared, read, thought about these documents and strategies.

Low effort solution:
Add link from
https://www.raspberrypi.org/about/

More effort:
Communicate and engage the community, and volunteers around this.
One way could be to have a separate "foundation page" like Freebsd have.

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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:22 pm

Psypro wrote:
Thanks! This was what I was looking for.

Suggestion:
Dont hide this gold. We use opensource, and wish for Soc manufacturers to pratics opensource. I think Raspberry Pi would be better served if this information was more open, shared, read, thought about these documents and strategies.

Low effort solution:
Add link from
https://www.raspberrypi.org/about/

More effort:
Communicate and engage the community, and volunteers around this.
One way could be to have a separate "foundation page" like Freebsd have.
Most of what you are discussing was fully discussed when the Pi was first launched, 4 years ago. You appear to be asking for change where it's not really necessary.
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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:31 pm

Psypro wrote: Suggestion:
Dont hide this gold. We use opensource, and wish for Soc manufacturers to pratics opensource. I think Raspberry Pi would be better served if this information was more open, shared, read, thought about these documents and strategies.
The irony of complaints that Broadcom isn't using open source is that, if the binary blob were locked into hardware on the board, then the Pi would be fully compliant with open source requirements. That the blob is sitting on an SD card where you can get at it--reverse engineer, decompile, update, whatever--means that the Pi *isn't* open source compliant.

Still...more and more of the Pi is being opened up. Indeed, probably more than for many other SOCs. Read the fine print on SoCs. Basically, *all* of them have some closed code.

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Re: Pine64+ a good deal?

Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:34 am

W. H. Heydt wrote:
expandables wrote:Give credit to these guys they made an awesome board. I believe they will hit 1 million in less than 30 days!
:twisted:
At present, the campaign has a bit under 4500 backers, taking a linear approximation (silly with this amount of data, but it's what there is), they might get pledges for 250K boards. Maybe. There is likely to be a lot less pledges after the initial surge and the final just-before-close surge. I'd tend to suspect that they have pledges for less than 100K boards.
Updated projection based on 2 days worth of data: 4K per day * 45 days = 180K board from the KS campaign.

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